Can this frame be repaired?

[Nelsonmd]

Never once did I say that it was an end all be all solution. Will it more than likely be ok? Sure. For how long? Who knows. Does it beat junking the truck and getting something new? In my opinion, yes. Are there several people here who have done this same repair in the past and been more than fine? Absolutely. If I were a betting man, and I knew the rest of the frame was decent, I'd sure as shit weld that sucker back up. If it was an 8 second drag car or a full on expedition vehicle I'd be singing a different tune. But a light truck that probably only sees street use, I'd have no problems making that repair fairly confidently, assuming everything else was ok. As a tech, there's a million more cars I've seen that I would be more leary of being on the road vs. a old toyota truck with a fairly tried and true frame repair. I mean come on, it's not like we're talking about cutting a car in two pieces and welding it back together to make one here.

Yeah, but you are making alot of assumptions in saying that it is fine for him to weld it, when you don't know anything about the rest of his frame, and that is where the danger is. If he isn't an engineer or master welder, he is not going to know all the things you are assuming; there is ALOT in those few little words "and I knew that the rest of the frame is decent" that takes some specific training and experience to understand.

Yes it is possible to fix it under the assumption that for some strange reason, this weld line, on this side of the frame rusted much quicker than every other weld line on the frame. I reject that assumption and say that is very unlikely based on my experience and education as an engineer and my experience as a 4runner driver in the rust belt. Therefore, when advising a layperson, I will be cautious with my words, assume they won't know all of my own assumptions, and say that it probably isn't feasible mechanically and financially to fix that frame. It sucks, but it's reality. I have seen too many case studies of even mechanics not respecting the engineering that goes into these vehicles and causing accidents that have killed people, and I have seen myself too many vehicles on the road that are not safe to drive, and I've even seen a couple accidents among my friends because of it.

OP, if it's just you driving it (i.e. no kids are riding in it), and only gently around town at low speeds, and you absolutely can't afford another car, then it might be worthwhile to weld it back together (after thorough inspection of course), though I still think $150 is going to be way low for welding that back together (remember, low price probably means low skill, a god welder will take some time to look at this and evaluate it, which costs money/time); but just know that you are taking a risk of it breaking, and definitely don't hit any bumps hard, or go fast.

We can discuss the engineering behind this situation for weeks, and I'd be fine doing that, and I am fine with others disagreeing with my opinions, but let's be very clear for those on this forum that aren't engineers or something similar that this is not a situation of simply weld it back together and it's good as new. You may know that, but lay-people may not know that they need to baby it after fixing this, or they'll forget and hit a potholed highway.

 

[M-Piers97]

Uh, I'd be very hesitant to just weld it back together and call it a day. Millerad is correct, if it's rusted through that badly there, then you are certain to have similar levels of rust elsewhere on the frame, and it is just waiting to fall apart.

And $150 is not going to do it... That guy must have been welding for crack money to do that work for that much. No self respecting welder will take that rusty frame and just weld that thing back together like that and let you drive away.

AZ cat, you need to seriously inspect the rest of the frame, from the front wheels all the way to the rear, including looking inside the rails. Better yet, pay a good welder or a good mechanic $50-100 to inspect it closely. It will be worth the money to have an educated opinion on the viability of that frame. And start emotionally preparing yourself to have to straight up send that thing to the junkyard, because you very well may need to let it go if there is indeed that kind of rust on other places too.

And this warning is coming from someone who has I think one of the bigger rust resurrections on this forum. See the link in my sig for that. I would probably junk that thing. It's at nearly 300k miles, it's had a good life.



Worse advice would be telling him he can weld it back together on the cheap only to have the other side break off 100 miles later on the highway killing his family, or hitting another car. I'm not saying that WILL happen, but it is not far fetched to think that he will have similar levels of rust in other key areas of the frame, and therefore near the breaking point.

A professional body shop that does insurance work fixed it for me, (no he was not welding for crack money). He did a great job and the repair is rock solid, he basically welded 1/4" thick steel all the way around it. And also the rest of my frame is in good shape considering its been in Michigan 10+ years, that pic ^ is the WORST part of my frame. And how is telling AZcat that junking his 4Runner is a better option then getting the frame welded? Yes i understand that the rest of the frame is most likely rusty but just like my frame that is probably the worst part.

 

[IBallEngineer]

As a tech, there's a million more cars I've seen that I would be more leary of being on the road vs. a old toyota truck with a fairly tried and true frame repair. I mean come on, it's not like we're talking about cutting a car in two pieces and welding it back together to make one here.

I'm with ya', I've seen a whole lot of crazy stuff hit the road. And I'd have no problem cutting a car in half and welding it back together to make one either. I've done it, correctly, and had no issues. But that frame looked really bad to me, maybe it's repairable, just didn't look good in the picture to me.

 

[Nelsonmd]

A professional body shop that does insurance work fixed it for me, (no he was not welding for crack money). He did a great job and the repair is rock solid, he basically welded 1/4" thick steel all the way around it. And also the rest of my frame is in good shape considering its been in Michigan 10+ years, that pic ^ is the WORST part of my frame. And how is telling AZcat that junking his 4Runner is a better option then getting the frame welded? Yes i understand that the rest of the frame is most likely rusty but just like my frame that is probably the worst part.

I don't know man, you are missing alot of material there, I have a hard time believing that you had good enough steel around that to convince me it's safe. You have rusted away alot more than just the weld line and the HAZ. Obviously I have only seen pictures, which isn't a good way to evaluate it, but that is really severe rust. And for the record, can you state whether insurance covered this work, and therefore assumed the liability for the work? Did the welder give you a warranty on this fix, or assume liability himself in case it fails?

It looks bomber until the still rusted out frame zippers right where the 1/4" thick steel is welded to the 1/8" steel that's rusted down to 1/16" from the inside, and now has a HAZ that extends into the 1/16" steel, meaning it will rust faster than it did before. It may be in better condition than that, but he doesn't know that until a qualified person actually measures it.

Telling him to junk it instead of welding the frame absolutely a better option if his welded up frame is going to fail on the highway while taking his kids to grandma's house. I don't know for sure that it will, but I think you are running an unacceptably high risk of it for placing the life of your kids on it. I mean, it's a nearly 300K vehicle, this isn't a financial disaster, it's nearing the end of it's life, or surpassed it for rust areas. I'm not saying he should junk a 50k vehicle that is solid solid other than this little patch of rust.

Regarding seeing other crazy stuff on the road, every vehicle seems perfectly safe right up until the instant it fails and causes a crash. Just because other people are risking it doesn't mean you should. There are accidents all the time due to failed mechanical components.

Don't forget guys, that Toyota probably stress relieves these frames after welding, which you aren't going to be able to do with these weld patch jobs. Therefore you have weakened the steel around your patch welds, and probably made them more susceptible to further rust. A good welder can minimize this, but there is no way around the HAZ other than post-weld heat treatment.

Again, I'm not saying it can't be done, but based on my direct experience in welding in the automotive industry (not frames, but automotive components), I would not trust this job to a welder whose judgement and skill I didn't trust with my life. That's my opinion.

 

[M-Piers97]

I don't know man, you are missing alot of material there, I have a hard time believing that you had good enough steel around that to convince me it's safe. You have rusted away alot more than just the weld line and the HAZ. Obviously I have only seen pictures, which isn't a good way to evaluate it, but that is really severe rust. And for the record, can you state whether insurance covered this work, and therefore assumed the liability for the work? Did the welder give you a warranty on this fix, or assume liability himself in case it fails?

No insurance did not cover this work, and the welder told me if i ever had any problems with it too bring it back. If the repair fails 5 years from now i dont plan on suing the welder, the truck already has high miles so if i can squeeze a few more years out of it them i am happy eace:

 

[01thunder]

that shit there is one reason i live in florida now. saw too much of that in chicago!

 

[BlackCat914]

Yeah, but you are making alot of assumptions in saying that it is fine for him to weld it, when you don't know anything about the rest of his frame, and that is where the danger is. If he isn't an engineer or master welder, he is not going to know all the things you are assuming; there is ALOT in those few little words "and I knew that the rest of the frame is decent" that takes some specific training and experience to understand.

Yes it is possible to fix it under the assumption that for some strange reason, this weld line, on this side of the frame rusted much quicker than every other weld line on the frame. I reject that assumption and say that is very unlikely based on my experience and education as an engineer and my experience as a 4runner driver in the rust belt. Therefore, when advising a layperson, I will be cautious with my words, assume they won't know all of my own assumptions, and say that it probably isn't feasible mechanically and financially to fix that frame. It sucks, but it's reality. I have seen too many case studies of even mechanics not respecting the engineering that goes into these vehicles and causing accidents that have killed people, and I have seen myself too many vehicles on the road that are not safe to drive, and I've even seen a couple accidents among my friends because of it.

OP, if it's just you driving it (i.e. no kids are riding in it), and only gently around town at low speeds, and you absolutely can't afford another car, then it might be worthwhile to weld it back together (after thorough inspection of course), though I still think $150 is going to be way low for welding that back together (remember, low price probably means low skill, a god welder will take some time to look at this and evaluate it, which costs money/time); but just know that you are taking a risk of it breaking, and definitely don't hit any bumps hard, or go fast.

We can discuss the engineering behind this situation for weeks, and I'd be fine doing that, and I am fine with others disagreeing with my opinions, but let's be very clear for those on this forum that aren't engineers or something similar that this is not a situation of simply weld it back together and it's good as new. You may know that, but lay-people may not know that they need to baby it after fixing this, or they'll forget and hit a potholed highway.

I see your side of the story and respect your opinion. I'm basing my advice (possibly incorrectly), that if he's driving a 300k mile truck he probably doesn't have the money to buy something new. And that's not a dig at him, times are tough. We're a community of like minded folks who voice our opinions on things. I'm on one side of the fence, you're on the other. And that's a good thing, because all we can do is offer our view points and help people who don't have our knowledge or skill set make an educated guess on how to move forward in a situation like this.

 

[azcat90]

Thanks, Gutter effect?

How does the passenger side bracket look?

Usually the passenger side is one that get's rusty and fails first. Something about being next to the exhaust whereas the driver side is more protected by the gas tank.

Thanks for the advice - IMO this frame is in much better shape than the 2000 I got rid of last year... That one was from Cleveland and dealer had failed it on state inspection in 2012.

I always thought passenger side of the vehicle got the worst of it because all the melted ice snow and salt collects on the side of the road.

My plan is to find a welder who will reattach the "ear" on the driver side, reinforce the passenger side "ear" and also give the whole frame stem to stern a thorough inspection.

I'm also going to treat the inside of the frame with motor oil, etc to slow down oxidation.

 

[azcat90]

My eyes are burning...

Wow - didn't think I'd start a major automotive frame repair debate. Thanks to all for your concern and useful advice. I commit to not putting this back on the road without a licensed welder/mechanic telling me it's safe... I was riding in the back seat when it broke at 45 mph - I know what the hazard is.

True, I lack the means currently to get a new(er) SUV. I also have a lot of sweat equity in this vehicle (I installed many parts from my 2000) and with my busted ankle I won't be able to start another part swap project until the spring.

Now everyone shake hands...

 

[papapoopski]

It won't hurt to follow these links and report what you have.

Toyota customer hotline ------
Support | Toyota.com

Heres another area to channel your cancers through ------
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml

Apparently this is a well known failure point. I am dealing with frame rot in the exact same area. I will be talking to a few welders to figure out what to do.

 

[Snowy21]

Jesus, I'd swear that some of you guys think that every truck rolling down the road swapped with Chevy 63's or a 3 link (or for that matter a long arm lift on a Jeep) is a death trap on wheels based on the "stresses" involved with attaching a suspension point to the frame. I can't fathom what you would say to the guys that back half their frames due to rust, very common on old pickups.

Long story short, just go to a competent welder that will clean up the frame there and reinforce and reattach the link bracket. Worst case if the bracket can't be saved, any good welder can fab up a new one easily and burn it in. It will cost you a little bit of cash but the end result is worth it and cheaper than finding a new truck!

Just some examples of frame work by competent welders






Yes I know I picked extreme examples, but I just wanted to show what can be done and it's not super duper rocket science to attach a link bracket to the frame that rusted at the weld

 

[Brian757]

As a certified barista at Starbucks, I believe that if the rest of the frame is sound, a thorough elimination of the rust in that area; the arm can be rewelded. It did fail at the welding points, so fabrication of an identical part isn't needed. But the truck also has 300,000 miles on it, so take that into consideration too.

I guess repairing this will only give the OP a little time to stack up cash to get a new truck, to say the least.

And with my extensive viewing of the hit television series, American Restorations, sand blasting the frame can expose your rust issues, and you can fix them or determine if the vehicle is worth it.

 

[woodro]

i dont understand the big deal everybody makes about repairing a rusty frame . i had some rusty spots on me frame and 2 holes . it is a simple process , cut all the bad rusty metal out and weld in new . you need someone who has a half a brain that can get full penetration with a welder and thats it .
toyota did nothing special with these frames , no special metals or welding of any type .
i cut all the bad material out and boxed my frame with 1/8 steel . my fix is stronger than stock .

 

[IBallEngineer]

Jesus, I'd swear that some of you guys think that every truck rolling down the road swapped with Chevy 63's or a 3 link (or for that matter a long arm lift on a Jeep) is a death trap on wheels based on the "stresses" involved with attaching a suspension point to the frame. I can't fathom what you would say to the guys that back half their frames due to rust, very common on old pickups.



I just wanted to show what can be done and it's not super duper rocket science to attach a link bracket to the frame that rusted at the weld

Not sure how you correlate quality fab work with rust repair, but I don't think anyone was saying we don't recommend customizing or welding to a frame. I think the detractors are saying if the frame is as bad as it appears in the pictures it isn't a smart repair. I don't agree that just because someone is a qualified welder that the work will hold up, too many variables on a badly rusted part. That said if the adjacent area is NOT too badly rusted, it is a relatively simple repair.

 

[Nelsonmd]

i dont understand the big deal everybody makes about repairing a rusty frame . i had some rusty spots on me frame and 2 holes . it is a simple process , cut all the bad rusty metal out and weld in new . you need someone who has a half a brain that can get full penetration with a welder and thats it .
toyota did nothing special with these frames , no special metals or welding of any type .
i cut all the bad material out and boxed my frame with 1/8 steel . my fix is stronger than stock .

Just because you did it doesn't mean it's sufficient, and doesn't mean it's safe now. And unless you completely boxed your frame in additional steel, then no, I doubt it is stronger than stock. You probably have alot of retained stress and varying crystal structures in your frame, which greatly reduces the strength. I don't know first hand that Toyota stress relives the frames, but I would bet they do. I have seen first hand the ill effects of having retained crystal structures from welding, casting, etc. If you have a huge safety factor in the design, then that's fine, but vehicles don't have that high a safety factor

Not sure how you correlate quality fab work with rust repair, but I don't think anyone was saying we don't recommend customizing or welding to a frame. I think the detractors are saying if the frame is as bad as it appears in the pictures it isn't a smart repair. I don't agree that just because someone is a qualified welder that the work will hold up, too many variables on a badly rusted part. That said if the adjacent area is NOT too badly rusted, it is a relatively simple repair.

Yup. And yeah, sand blasting or pneumatic scaling can reveal the extent of the rust damage. On my frame, I spent hours chipping rust off, only to find that when I hit it with a pneumatic needle scaler, I hadn't gotten nearly all the way through the rust, and there was hardly anything left of the frame. Fortunately this was way back above the spare tire, in that part of the frame is only holding the tow points. I might be screwed if I have to get pulled out by the rear though...

 

[azcat90]

More pics

I finally made it outside and took a look for myself...

It is worse than I thought from previous photo...

Close up:

Looking towards rear:

Have not found a welder yet...

I see the debate rages on...

 

[azcat90]

Found a shop

I found a custom chassis shop who agreed to work on it. Should get it back week after next.

 

[azcat90]

Good as new

I got it back on 1/20 and it looked good as new... I probably paid too much ($1,100).

 

[Nelsonmd]

I got it back on 1/20 and it looked good as new... I probably paid too much ($1,100).

That's more in line with what I'd expect from a competent welder. Post some pictures of what it looks like now. Did he give you an invoice showing what all he did? Did he inspect the rest of the frame? Patch anything else?