thebwlife
Senior Member
This!!!! And that weight of 40 is everything kid, base, seat.
Seat belts are the only way I go. My Tahoe doesn't even have two latch systems in the second row.
Car Seat in Center with 40% Side Down ?
- Thread starter GreyhoundGuy
- Start date
This!!!! And that weight of 40 is everything kid, base, seat.
Seat belts are the only way I go. My Tahoe doesn't even have two latch systems in the second row.
Mgyver1
Member
Go to a fire or hospital ONLY if they have been trained in car seat installation. Car seat tech training is not really part of the fire academy or nursing school. I have seen nurses who have gone through a quick training session and help out at car seat events, but their work still has to be double checked by a certified tech. It is a 4 day course to get certified in through NHSTA / Safe Kids Worldwide plus continuing education and recertification every two years.
Swarty
New member
In reality that's easier said than done...
That was the dynamic minimum with a large safety factor. The minimum since Feb 2014 is 65lbs and is still a federal minimum not the actual limit of the car. Also that limit is just to the 2 lower restraints, the upper tether raises that number. All of these things are tested dynamically. That 65lbs is not a static load. It's a dynamic load at some amount of acceleration.
When using a steel loops and clips this is nothing and most car and seat manufacturers are WAAAY beyond this limit.
Latch is more straightforward and easy to install correctly. Seat belt strap must be installed perfectly in order to work correctly and you must know how to use a locking clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEIbJ0YC1hc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2QKoVaHJAM
So just to summarize:
Yes seat belts can take more force, a uselessly large amount in a child's case.
Seat belts are much more likely to be installed incorrectly.
LATCH strength is several safety factors beyond what is required to restrain a car seat and child.
LATCH is much more likely to be installed correctly.
Since the introduction of latch death and injury of children IN CAR SEATS has gone down due to proper installation. So, while you are right about properly installed car seats with seat belts, it's not the right thing to recommend. People aren't purposely misinstalling car seats but they are more likely to do so if using a seat belt.
That was the dynamic minimum with a large safety factor. The minimum since Feb 2014 is 65lbs and is still a federal minimum not the actual limit of the car. Also that limit is just to the 2 lower restraints, the upper tether raises that number. All of these things are tested dynamically. That 65lbs is not a static load. It's a dynamic load at some amount of acceleration.
When using a steel loops and clips this is nothing and most car and seat manufacturers are WAAAY beyond this limit.
Latch is more straightforward and easy to install correctly. Seat belt strap must be installed perfectly in order to work correctly and you must know how to use a locking clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEIbJ0YC1hc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2QKoVaHJAM
So just to summarize:
Yes seat belts can take more force, a uselessly large amount in a child's case.
Seat belts are much more likely to be installed incorrectly.
LATCH strength is several safety factors beyond what is required to restrain a car seat and child.
LATCH is much more likely to be installed correctly.
Since the introduction of latch death and injury of children IN CAR SEATS has gone down due to proper installation. So, while you are right about properly installed car seats with seat belts, it's not the right thing to recommend. People aren't purposely misinstalling car seats but they are more likely to do so if using a seat belt.
Last edited:
Mgyver1
Member
Yes I agree that LATCH is easier to install and is likely to result in a more correct installation. But most rear middle seats, where the child is safest, typically don't have LATCH anchors. Some vehicles permit using one left and one right anchor and some don't (I tried to find it in the 5th gen manual on Toyota's website but couldn't find it). Some car seat makers also allow it, some have certain conditions (anchor points have to be so many inches away), there's a bunch of variables. So it wouldn't be a bad idea for people to educate themselves on how to install a car seat correctly with a seatbelt as they may have to put their seat in a friend/neighbor/baby sitter/Fellow T4R member in a 3rd GEN/Random stranger's car that may not have LATCH.
I find locking clips not hard to use (But having an extra hand during the install is nice), and again if you have a seat with a built in lock off they are usually very easy. The best are older lap belts where the belt is secured at the latch plate so you don't have to worry about either lock offs or clips.
Mgyver1
Member
That's why I said to go to a fire station or hospital ONLY if they're certified. Out here most are not. While I'm sure they're some out here in the valley, I have yet to meet a firefighter here who is a CPST. I have met a few nurses who are, but they've mostly been involved in the pediatric ER/trauma or ICU units here at Sunrise and UMC hosptials. AAA has a person out here that's a tech so if you have AAA give them a call and they might be able to help you out. Bottom line, find a tech, not just someone who should know because they're in the biz. You would think the nurses in the labor and delivery units would know as they check to make sure your kid is in a seat before you leave, but they aren't. I guess the hospital sees it a liability if the baby gets hurt in an accident, they could get sued.
Last edited:
Swarty
New member
Yeah! They definitely should! But probably dont...
I definitely agree that people should know how to use a seat belt on a car seat. I also think the new car seats designed for seat belts such as the Britax clicktight should be the new std and that anyone in the market should look for this or a similar feature. It's one of the few seats that latch installation is actually the inferior choice.
No, there almost no variables and it's easy to tell.
The law has required LATCH compatibility in all 3 full rear seat positions since the very beginning, The rear seats where you sit on a narrow "hump" are the exception as they aren't considered a full seat. The easy way to tell is to look for the 3rd anchor. If it has an upper tether anchor point than LATCH use is acceptable for that seat position. The 4runner is able to use them in all 3 positions per the law.
LATCH requirements
These guys have a link to the legalese but their summary is solid.
I definitely agree that people should know how to use a seat belt on a car seat. I also think the new car seats designed for seat belts such as the Britax clicktight should be the new std and that anyone in the market should look for this or a similar feature. It's one of the few seats that latch installation is actually the inferior choice.
No, there almost no variables and it's easy to tell.
The law has required LATCH compatibility in all 3 full rear seat positions since the very beginning, The rear seats where you sit on a narrow "hump" are the exception as they aren't considered a full seat. The easy way to tell is to look for the 3rd anchor. If it has an upper tether anchor point than LATCH use is acceptable for that seat position. The 4runner is able to use them in all 3 positions per the law.
LATCH requirements
These guys have a link to the legalese but their summary is solid.
Mgyver1
Member
YES! The Britax Clicktight is ridiculous how easy and nice it is to use, I have the Frontier Clicktight and love it.
Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you here. All vehicles are required to have 3 top tether anchors not the entire LATCH system. The 3rd gen 4Runner did not ever come with lower anchors but on '01 & '02 models had top tethers for all 3 rear seats. Also my 2002 Tacoma had top tether anchors suitable for the front passenger or rear passenger seat but there were no lower anchors.
I know those are older cars, so lets go newer to the '07-'14 Chevy Tahoe and variants (Yukon & Escalade). The middle row consisting of 2 captains chairs each have LATCH but the rear seat only has a top tether suitable for either the rear driver or rear middle seat. Also the 2007 Nissan Maxima, which has lower anchors for the rear outer seats, specifically states in the owner's manual that you can NOT use the lower anchors for installing a seat in the middle (using the inner driver & passenger), but there are 3 top tether anchors across the rear deck.
Also, the lower anchors have to be 11" apart. Some car seats have the lower anchor connectors hard mounted to the seat like this one:
So obviously that wouldn't work if the middle anchors were more or less than the 11" requirement. I have seen in some manuals where it stated you could use one passenger and one driver lower anchor if your car seat had a strap for the lower connectors instead of hard mount.
So yes there are many variables. To go even deeper down this rabbit hole of car seat installs, some car seat manufacturers approve using both seatbelt and lower anchors at the same time. For example the 2004 Ford Expedition allows both the seatbelt and lower anchors as long as the car seat manufacturer approves.
Last edited:
My 2013 owners manual does not specifially say the lower anchors/tether can be used for the middle position. It just says "LATCH anchors are provided for the outside rear seats". While my latch strap is long enough to reach, im hesitant to install with that method if the owners manual doesnt make mention of it.
Attachments
Mgyver1
Member
While it would "probably" be fine, I would just stick with the seatbelt in the center position if it were me. There's no interpretation needed to know it works and is approved. But take the time to learn how to correctly install it yourself and by all means go get a second opinion from a CPST who can go over the install with you.
Tried to install in the middle position with seat belt. I followed all directions from toyota owners manual and the graco owners manual. It seems too loose. More than the 1" of movement allowed. I also tried putting all my 200 lbs of body weight on top of the car seat base while letting the seat belt lock and retract and it still seemed loose. Any ideas?
Swarty
New member
I was definitely wrong!
I reread that, you're right the lower attachments are only required on two of the rear seats. You are screwed if you have triplets.
Do you like the width of that frontier? I'm looking for my boys next seat.
I reread that, you're right the lower attachments are only required on two of the rear seats. You are screwed if you have triplets.
Do you like the width of that frontier? I'm looking for my boys next seat.
GreyhoundGuy
New member
Wow... I posted this message a couple days ago and expected a couple responses... nothing like what's been posted. Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses.
We're (most likely) going with a Chicco KeyFit 30 infant car seat, and then we'll upgrade to something different when she's bigger. The plan is to put her behind the passenger seat using the latches provided at the bottom of the back rest on that seat.
I guess I wasn't clear that I didn't want to modify anything... the thought had popped into my mind, but it wasn't a route I was planning on taking. I was just curious if anyone had experience with a center position car seat AND the 40% side down. Looks like it's doable, but sketchy... DEFINITELY not worth any risk that it would place our daughter in.
We're only planning on one kiddo (our age may limit the possibility of more... honestly, this kiddo is kind of a miracle baby!). So for now, the minivan is out. Thank Goodness!
Sending you a PM.
I hadn't thought of that... natural instinct of the driver (if possible) WOULD be to turn away from the crash. I'll definitely give this some thought. Thanks!
This was my plan... actually planned on trying it myself and then having them double check. (We learned that one of the local hospitals can't actually check the carseat for you due to liability. They can verify that you have a carseat IN your car, but they can't check it for proper latching to due liability issues. SERIOUSLY!?!?)
We've seen these and debated them. Thanks for the recommendation.
I've talked to my wife about whether she'll need a step up to help latch our daughter in. She's ASSURES me that she'll be fine... but I'm pretty sure I'll have to put back the factory running boards. Then, when she sees how "urban runner" it makes our 4Runner look, I'm pretty sure I'll get the go-ahead for sliders. Right now, every dollar we've got coming in is being allocated towards our daughter and a hopeful upgrade in house.
I am, of course, most concerned about our daughter's safety. There is no way that I will place her in harm's way. Period. I was simply looking to see if anyone has done something like this (60/40 split, center mount) before, or if anyone had better thoughts/options. I know that there are parents out there that are more concerned about their pets, their car, their cell phones, their fingernails, or whatever it might be than their child. Trust me... this isn't us. I'm simply trying to gain some knowledge from the other users of this board.
Again, thanks to all for your thoughtful advice. That's why I love this board!
-Joel
We're (most likely) going with a Chicco KeyFit 30 infant car seat, and then we'll upgrade to something different when she's bigger. The plan is to put her behind the passenger seat using the latches provided at the bottom of the back rest on that seat.
I guess I wasn't clear that I didn't want to modify anything... the thought had popped into my mind, but it wasn't a route I was planning on taking. I was just curious if anyone had experience with a center position car seat AND the 40% side down. Looks like it's doable, but sketchy... DEFINITELY not worth any risk that it would place our daughter in.
We're only planning on one kiddo (our age may limit the possibility of more... honestly, this kiddo is kind of a miracle baby!). So for now, the minivan is out. Thank Goodness!
Sending you a PM.
I hadn't thought of that... natural instinct of the driver (if possible) WOULD be to turn away from the crash. I'll definitely give this some thought. Thanks!
This was my plan... actually planned on trying it myself and then having them double check. (We learned that one of the local hospitals can't actually check the carseat for you due to liability. They can verify that you have a carseat IN your car, but they can't check it for proper latching to due liability issues. SERIOUSLY!?!?)
We've seen these and debated them. Thanks for the recommendation.
I've talked to my wife about whether she'll need a step up to help latch our daughter in. She's ASSURES me that she'll be fine... but I'm pretty sure I'll have to put back the factory running boards. Then, when she sees how "urban runner" it makes our 4Runner look, I'm pretty sure I'll get the go-ahead for sliders. Right now, every dollar we've got coming in is being allocated towards our daughter and a hopeful upgrade in house.
I am, of course, most concerned about our daughter's safety. There is no way that I will place her in harm's way. Period. I was simply looking to see if anyone has done something like this (60/40 split, center mount) before, or if anyone had better thoughts/options. I know that there are parents out there that are more concerned about their pets, their car, their cell phones, their fingernails, or whatever it might be than their child. Trust me... this isn't us. I'm simply trying to gain some knowledge from the other users of this board.
Again, thanks to all for your thoughtful advice. That's why I love this board!
-Joel
Congrats for the baby.
Secure the cargo area, 165# dogs that can go flying around can be disastrous.
My GF got rear-ended last winter in her Subaru XV with my son in his car seat (he was 2 at the time). She had a stroller and some misc items in the back that went flying in the front and hit my son head (he was fine, could have been worst but got to sit in an ambulance and tow truck so it's was a excellent day for him). Now I do have cargo nets in place in both the Subaru and ¸4Runner to make sure nothing could fly in an emergency stop or accident.
Secure the cargo area, 165# dogs that can go flying around can be disastrous.
My GF got rear-ended last winter in her Subaru XV with my son in his car seat (he was 2 at the time). She had a stroller and some misc items in the back that went flying in the front and hit my son head (he was fine, could have been worst but got to sit in an ambulance and tow truck so it's was a excellent day for him). Now I do have cargo nets in place in both the Subaru and ¸4Runner to make sure nothing could fly in an emergency stop or accident.
Swarty
New member
Group buy on Raingler nets.
Hey just in line with theme of this I'd thought I'd remind everyone that there is a GB going for Raingler cargo nets. This is a sweet deal for a great cargo net.
Raingler GB
Hey just in line with theme of this I'd thought I'd remind everyone that there is a GB going for Raingler cargo nets. This is a sweet deal for a great cargo net.
Raingler GB
Mgyver1
Member
I love it. While the order sometimes gets switched around, typically I have one Frontier and one Britax Boulevard in my 3rd Gen and the same in my Tahoe. If we throw car seats in the babysitter's car or carpool with the neighbors I take the Frontiers because they're so easy to install. Again the Clicktight is ridiculously easy. As far as width goes, I think they're fine, but I'm not trying to fit 3 across. They're not skinny by any means (The Dino is very slim) but I don't think it's overly bulky.
I've spent a lot on car seats over the years, but I'd do the same setups again. Babies were in an infant carrier, Chicco Key Fit, which has a very easy to install base with LATCH, but it also has a built in lock off for seatbelt use. I would've also considered the Britax or a Peg Perego infant carriers too. Once that was outgrown it was the Britax Boulevard which will do rear facing up to 40 lbs and forward facing to 65 lbs. And now the Britax Frontier should be the last size. Harness up to 90 lbs and high back booster up to 120 lbs. I like that in booster mode you can secure the seat with LATCH while your child is held by the seatbelt, so even if your kid isn't in the car the seat is still secured without having to worry about throwing a seatbelt over it. But for now they're still harnessed in, and given the genes they're working with they'll probably be harnessed till they're like 12. Lets just say wife can ride in the Frontier in booster mode!
Sig_Fan_55
New member
I am now using the Britax click tight and love it! The wife has the reccaro in her car and after trying it in my 4Runner I knew it wouldn't work based off how high that car seat sits. When installed there was no room to put my son in between the seat and the roof. I'm not sure if it was a one off but I could never get the latch on the reccaro tight enough where I felt no movement in the seat. The first time I installed the Britax I was floored by how solid it felt using the click tight. Not only that it has a steel frame and sits way lower than the reccaro. The ease of install is a plus now that my son throws up in it all the time (cries till he throws up in the car at night).
