Your thought process is correct, but the term dirty is hard to put a percentage to.
Crawford Eco Block
- Thread starter Canazes9
- Start date
Your thought process is correct, but the term dirty is hard to put a percentage to.
Saker
Senior Member
Can this madness end this easy?? Maybe I should buy you a few tanks of fuel as wellThe haters will never stop hating... it's ingrained into their blood.
Send me your address and we will gladly send you test unit. Thanks for reaching out with this offer!
OK, so it's been a while since [MENTION=75851]flounder1[/MENTION] got his free eco-block that [MENTION=121742]Quirt[/MENTION] sent him, [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] volunteered to diagnose & dissect data supplied from 1000's of miles of before and after the eco-block install.
Bottom line, what is/was the outcome from the data, if any?
Thousands are awaiting the results...........:whip:
just sayin'
the snake provide a lot of oil
Testing is taking place which takes time, hang in there.
Jetboy
New member
FWIW, to calculate a statistically relevant result, the sample size should (based on my records of my driving std deviation), 64 tanks of gas. My 4runner isn't even close to 64 tanks of gas since new so I can't say with any confidence what my mpg even is as a baseline yet.
The end result is that someone would need to do about 25,000 miles of driving with this before we could have enough data to say with a 95% confidence that there is any measurable improvement in MPG.
The point: it's going to be a while before we know anything.
The end result is that someone would need to do about 25,000 miles of driving with this before we could have enough data to say with a 95% confidence that there is any measurable improvement in MPG.
The point: it's going to be a while before we know anything.
2014 Warthog
New member
Cross posted from my build thread but it should be in both places:
Sooooooooo....
Remember that Crawford Eco Block MAF spacer thread a bit ago?
Ok, I'm not an idiot. We'll not so much these days, I was when I was 20 of course. I got scammed good at the swap meet with a "Spark energizer" thing that you popped onto the top of your coil to "Increase the intensity of your spark" to get better gas mileage. The guy had a car there and everything and would pop the thing in and out of the car while it was running and it ran great when in and not as hot when out.
Turns out he was standing on a piece of carpet with a switch under it that would cut out half of the plugs when he stepped on it making the engine run like crap on command.
Serious life lesson learned!
So I'm super pessimistic of EVERYTHING (Just ask anyone!). Intake cyclone? Gimmie a break, Fuel Shark? Is anyone THAT stupid? Etc etc etc...
Ok so the Crawford Eco Block MAF spacer... Here we go again... Only.. after reading everything I could about it and just relying on my general knowledge on the way the world works, both from an engineering and from a "Everyone is a scam artist" angles. I decided that there just /might/ be something to this.
So I quietly bought one a few months ago and gave been testing it. I've just got enough data to give what I think is a pretty solid test result.
I have a very strict set of habits when checking my MPG. I always gas up at the same station and usually the same pump. I always gas up just before and just after a trip so I completely separate my daily commute from any large outings. I'm a generally mellow driver, though not a hyper-miler.
For these results I averaged out my MPG only for completely full tanks and ONLY for 100% normal commute + weekend errand driving. Trips to the desert/Utah etc have WAY too many traffic/weather/random gas station variables to be very accurate.
Also, as an FYI, I live at nearly sea level and in California there is not really much if any of a summer/winter blend any more. It USED to be that in summer the MPG went DOWN because of anti-smog additives, but we get those year round now. So there is no big mileage drop/boost from winter to summer here any more like there used to be.
The numbers:
Completely stock
I only went through maybe 3 tanks completely stock and I didn't save the numbers...
Lifted, 265 (stock size) Toyo AT2 tires (Covers an 11 month period from April 2014 to March 2015, no Summer/Winter gas issues at all)
18.06 + 18.78 + 18.69 + 18.58 + 18.81 + 18.38 + 18.53 + 18.97 + 18.71 + 18.48 +
18.33 + 18.86 + 17.89 + 19.41 + 19.65 + 18.58 + 18.02 + 18.42 + 17.79 + 18.27 +
18.63 + 18.22 + 17.93 + 18.48 + 18.08 + 18.03 + 18.26 + 18.61 + 18.38 / 29
18.476
Same as above but 275 BFG KO2s
16.8 + 17.66 + 17.31 + 17.18 + 17.66 + 17.51 + 17.38 / 7
17.357 - 1.119 MPG
Same as above but with the Crawford Eco Block
18.15 + 18.21 + 18.66 + 17.92 + 18.27 + 18.45 / 6
18.276 + 0.919 MPG
Results
* 1.1 MPG drop from Stock AT to 275s
* 0.9 MPG increase using the MAF spacer with all other variables constant.
I was already as light on the pedal as my Patience would allow with the 275s knowing they were sucking my mileage down so there was no further room for pedal shenanigans with the spacer in.
So given where I drive and how I drive, those are the concrete numbers. The results were immediate and consistent, both for the tire change AND for the MAF spacer install. I'll pay for itself after about 5 months for me, and after that it's like getting a free gallon of gas with every fill. Not too bad.
So what about more power?
While I believe the dynos which show a + 5 HP across the range, I absolutely could not feel a thing on my first drive after install. The % gain in HP is just too small for me to notice.
What about mileage on trips or offroading?
I have no idea and may never really know... For example though I only lost 1 MPG going from 265 to 275, that is only for my mellow daily commute of 50 miles. When going heavy throttle out up a mountain, or if I had a lead foot, the loss could be more like 2 mpg as others have reported. My daily commuting is so utterly consistent but the gains, while there, are small enough, that I don't think even if I drive to Utah twice a year for 5 years if I could tell if I got better mileage when driving all out than before given the HUGE variation in MPG per fill up on my last three trips due to traffic, weather, energy level etc.
In the end I'm pleasantly surprised and quite happy to have nearly eliminated my 275 oversize tire penalty and will likely make going to 285 at some point less of an MPG disappointment
Addendum: As per [MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION] s post above. Since I have eliminated most of the variation in my measurement technique, 64 tanks of gas are way WAY more than are needed for a confident result.
A this point probably 10 samples would be at 99% accurate. But yes, if I were just using every single full and partial fill as well as every crazy thing I take my truck out on then it would take FOREVER to get a fine enough measurement considering the huge 9 to 23 MPG swing over every single entry in my log.
I reduced a +- 50% swing in bare stats to around +- 5%. Concentrating on the majority of my driving which is my daily commute and the thing I'm most concerned with. I don't care at all what my MPG is offroading
Sooooooooo....
Remember that Crawford Eco Block MAF spacer thread a bit ago?
Ok, I'm not an idiot. We'll not so much these days, I was when I was 20 of course. I got scammed good at the swap meet with a "Spark energizer" thing that you popped onto the top of your coil to "Increase the intensity of your spark" to get better gas mileage. The guy had a car there and everything and would pop the thing in and out of the car while it was running and it ran great when in and not as hot when out.
Turns out he was standing on a piece of carpet with a switch under it that would cut out half of the plugs when he stepped on it making the engine run like crap on command.
Serious life lesson learned!
So I'm super pessimistic of EVERYTHING (Just ask anyone!). Intake cyclone? Gimmie a break, Fuel Shark? Is anyone THAT stupid? Etc etc etc...
Ok so the Crawford Eco Block MAF spacer... Here we go again... Only.. after reading everything I could about it and just relying on my general knowledge on the way the world works, both from an engineering and from a "Everyone is a scam artist" angles. I decided that there just /might/ be something to this.
So I quietly bought one a few months ago and gave been testing it. I've just got enough data to give what I think is a pretty solid test result.
I have a very strict set of habits when checking my MPG. I always gas up at the same station and usually the same pump. I always gas up just before and just after a trip so I completely separate my daily commute from any large outings. I'm a generally mellow driver, though not a hyper-miler.
For these results I averaged out my MPG only for completely full tanks and ONLY for 100% normal commute + weekend errand driving. Trips to the desert/Utah etc have WAY too many traffic/weather/random gas station variables to be very accurate.
Also, as an FYI, I live at nearly sea level and in California there is not really much if any of a summer/winter blend any more. It USED to be that in summer the MPG went DOWN because of anti-smog additives, but we get those year round now. So there is no big mileage drop/boost from winter to summer here any more like there used to be.
The numbers:
Completely stock
I only went through maybe 3 tanks completely stock and I didn't save the numbers...
Lifted, 265 (stock size) Toyo AT2 tires (Covers an 11 month period from April 2014 to March 2015, no Summer/Winter gas issues at all)
18.06 + 18.78 + 18.69 + 18.58 + 18.81 + 18.38 + 18.53 + 18.97 + 18.71 + 18.48 +
18.33 + 18.86 + 17.89 + 19.41 + 19.65 + 18.58 + 18.02 + 18.42 + 17.79 + 18.27 +
18.63 + 18.22 + 17.93 + 18.48 + 18.08 + 18.03 + 18.26 + 18.61 + 18.38 / 29
18.476
Same as above but 275 BFG KO2s
16.8 + 17.66 + 17.31 + 17.18 + 17.66 + 17.51 + 17.38 / 7
17.357 - 1.119 MPG
Same as above but with the Crawford Eco Block
18.15 + 18.21 + 18.66 + 17.92 + 18.27 + 18.45 / 6
18.276 + 0.919 MPG
Results
* 1.1 MPG drop from Stock AT to 275s
* 0.9 MPG increase using the MAF spacer with all other variables constant.
I was already as light on the pedal as my Patience would allow with the 275s knowing they were sucking my mileage down so there was no further room for pedal shenanigans with the spacer in.
So given where I drive and how I drive, those are the concrete numbers. The results were immediate and consistent, both for the tire change AND for the MAF spacer install. I'll pay for itself after about 5 months for me, and after that it's like getting a free gallon of gas with every fill. Not too bad.
So what about more power?
While I believe the dynos which show a + 5 HP across the range, I absolutely could not feel a thing on my first drive after install. The % gain in HP is just too small for me to notice.
What about mileage on trips or offroading?
I have no idea and may never really know... For example though I only lost 1 MPG going from 265 to 275, that is only for my mellow daily commute of 50 miles. When going heavy throttle out up a mountain, or if I had a lead foot, the loss could be more like 2 mpg as others have reported. My daily commuting is so utterly consistent but the gains, while there, are small enough, that I don't think even if I drive to Utah twice a year for 5 years if I could tell if I got better mileage when driving all out than before given the HUGE variation in MPG per fill up on my last three trips due to traffic, weather, energy level etc.
In the end I'm pleasantly surprised and quite happy to have nearly eliminated my 275 oversize tire penalty and will likely make going to 285 at some point less of an MPG disappointment
Addendum: As per [MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION] s post above. Since I have eliminated most of the variation in my measurement technique, 64 tanks of gas are way WAY more than are needed for a confident result.
A this point probably 10 samples would be at 99% accurate. But yes, if I were just using every single full and partial fill as well as every crazy thing I take my truck out on then it would take FOREVER to get a fine enough measurement considering the huge 9 to 23 MPG swing over every single entry in my log.
I reduced a +- 50% swing in bare stats to around +- 5%. Concentrating on the majority of my driving which is my daily commute and the thing I'm most concerned with. I don't care at all what my MPG is offroading
I appreciate all the work people have put into verifying this.
So, it's $40. I normally get about 16mpg driving around town with the 85% gas and full time 4wd. If I got 17mpg, how long would this take to pay for its self.
My normal fill-up is 20 gallons ($2.50/gal) and that gets me 320 miles at 16mpg costing me $48 giving me a ratio of .0625 cents per mile.
If this block increase my mpg by 1 I'd get 340 miles for the same $48 giving me a new ratio of .0588 cents per mile for a difference of .0036 cents per mile.
The result is 11,111.11 miles till you break even.
So, it's $40. I normally get about 16mpg driving around town with the 85% gas and full time 4wd. If I got 17mpg, how long would this take to pay for its self.
My normal fill-up is 20 gallons ($2.50/gal) and that gets me 320 miles at 16mpg costing me $48 giving me a ratio of .0625 cents per mile.
If this block increase my mpg by 1 I'd get 340 miles for the same $48 giving me a new ratio of .0588 cents per mile for a difference of .0036 cents per mile.
The result is 11,111.11 miles till you break even.
It's been a long time since I did math in public, but I think in your example the break even point is 4533 miles. At 16 mpg, you're paying 15 cents per mile. At 17 mpg, that drops to 14.12 cents per mile. The difference is 0.88 cents per mile...divide $40 by the difference and you're just over 4500 miles.
Unless I also screwed up the math, in which case all bets are off.
It's been a long time since I did math in public, but I think in your example the break even point is 4533 miles. At 16 mpg, you're paying 15 cents per mile. At 17 mpg, that drops to 14.12 cents per mile. The difference is 0.88 cents per mile...divide $40 by the difference and you're just over 4500 miles.
Unless I also screwed up the math, in which case all bets are off.
LOL! I like this. I always double check my work, specially when posting publicly.
BTW, send over some of that $2.50 gas this way...
LandCruiser
New member
This is bullshit.
If you want to waste your money, send it to me.
I'll email you photos of my fun weekend with two escorts in Vegas.
2014 Warthog
New member
I know it's wordy but did you even /try/ to read my post above?
LandCruiser
New member
I did.
I'd say it's within the standard of deviation and what's expected for an engine once it's more broken in.
2014 Warthog
New member
Not THAT is probably the biggest load of bullshit in this entire thread.
There is NO WAY that there could be a random and steady full MPG drop or gain at the INSTANT and for the FULL DURATION that one variable was changed, let alone TWICE, unless that variable caused the change.
Or are you saying that the switch to 275 tires doesn't really lower gas mileage either? And that my numbers above don't show that? Cuz that would be pretty big news to the entire wheeling community if it were true.
Be skeptical (And no one is more skeptical than me) but keep an open mind!
Unless of course you are just another internet troll, I was taken in once this week already on this forum, my troll sense is not highly developed I'll admit.
wfo9
New member
If it helps, I think your results are legit. Seems consistent with what other have seen with it also. 1mpg is not huge, but it is something.Not THAT is probably the biggest load of bullshit in this entire thread.
There is NO WAY that there could be a random and steady full MPG drop or gain at the INSTANT and for the FULL DURATION that one variable was changed, let alone TWICE, unless that variable caused the change.
Or are you saying that the switch to 275 tires doesn't really lower gas mileage either? And that my numbers above don't show that? Cuz that would be pretty big news to the entire wheeling community if it were true.
Be skeptical (And no one is more skeptical than me) but keep an open mind!
Unless of course you are just another internet troll, I was taken in once this week already on this forum, my troll sense is not highly developed I'll admit.
2014 Warthog
New member
Heh thanks, yeah I got a little hot there.
My apologies to the thread... Well we'll just let the readers decide who they believe at this point.
Yeah, I'd say the gains are.... Just barely worth it, could be more or less depending on the person. Maybe not worth it for some people who get super cheap gas, but I just paid over $4 a gallon again today so.. I'm leaving it on!
It's like $4 cash back every fill up!Heh thanks, yeah I got a little hot there.
Well we'll just let the readers decide who they believe at this point.
Yeah, I'd say the gains are.... Just barely worth it, could be more or less depending on the person. Maybe not worth it for some people who get super cheap gas, but I just paid over $4 a gallon again today so.. I'm leaving it on!
Glad you're happy with your purchase.
What is your reckoning of the significant stdev decreasing with fewer data points (this is counter intuitive to a 'controlled' sample)?
What tire pressure over the trips?
What temperatures and barometric pressures?
What distances per fill-up (if you fill up in 10 mile increments vs. 400 mile increments).
If you were to remove the ecoblock, would you expect a .919 mpg decrease (you could test this while keeping "everything else the same")?
What are your O2 sensors reading before and after the ecoblock (you can buy an OBD2 adapter for a smart phone and record this data for less than an ecoblock)?
2014 Warthog
New member
What is your reckoning of the significant stdev decreasing with fewer data points (this is counter intuitive to a 'controlled' sample)?
Actually after eliminating partial tanks and any tanks where I'm driving over the mountains and offroading, the deviations are amazingly small... Also, I'm keeping the spacer on for the time being so I'll eventually have many more data points for the third case anyway...
What tire pressure over the trips?
Tire pressure the same for the second and third measurements. And though the actual lbs were different between the Toyos (first set) and the BFGs (P-Metric Vs LTE) the relative tire pressure to maintain proper load and footprint was as close as I could make them. In fact I could possibly eek a bit more MPG out of adding another 5-10 pounds to the BFGs, possibly another experiment, it certainly wouldn't go down any more
The Tire pressure between the send and third sets was the same, 44lbs. What temperatures and barometric pressures?
Living in San Diego, the weather here is remarkably constant compared to other places. You can see through the entire 11 months of the first set that there is virtually no change at all through summer/winter and the variations are remarkably small and I think mainly due to the variance in my weekend driving which is all low MPG city stuff. I.e. if I don't drive on the weekend I get closer to 19 mpg, but if I make 5-6 trips its closer to dipping below 18.
What distances per fill-up (if you fill up in 10 mile increments vs. 400 mile increments).
Full tanks only. Short fill ups are problematic due to higher noise level in the calculation and having too much "weight" when averaged with full tanks. The numbers above are for full tanks only.
If you were to remove the ecoblock, would you expect a .919 mpg decrease (you could test this while keeping "everything else the same")?
I would since nothing else changed, maybe after gathering another 6-8 good samples I can give that a try.
What are your O2 sensors reading before and after the ecoblock (you can buy an OBD2 adapter for a smart phone and record this data for less than an ecoblock)?
Sadly one thing I did not properly prep for was that and measuring the external temp of the headers before and after :/ There is the remaining question of how this might be affecting the engine itself over the long term.
In the end my /feeling/ is that it's not likely to be too much due to the relatively small change in A/F mixture. But yeah, I do wish I had gotten some before and after readings of the exhaust profile to know what was going on there...
I do have an ODB adapter. I could get readings now and save them for when I try the removal test in another 3-4 months or so.
Last edited:
kapp_badbloodz
New member
PM me info on these escorts please.
1) Delete MAF
2) open source tune
3)
4) profit
:gun5:
Anyways.... coming from a performance/built platform I can see both arguments here. This is essentially a phenolic spacer for the MAF. Any time I touched my MAF I adjusted AFR to reflect. MAF/AFR are intricately intertwined on motor performance and when you change a small variable you can inadvertantly cause harm to the motor.
I don't know if the pistons are composit or cast/forged in the 4r but if they are anything like the newer vehicles being released I would say STAY AWAY unless you get a vehicle specific tune. This product seems to "trick" the MAF into allowing adjustments for increased power... but are you tying adequate fueling? Are you logging AFRs at idle and WOT? Get this with a tune and you may see better results.
I won't get it but if you get it and are happy then I am happy for you
post some logs so we can see your results
2014 Warthog
New member
...
Are you logging AFRs at idle and WOT? Get this with a tune and you may see better results.
I won't get it but if you get it and are happy then I am happy for you
Someone else would have to try this as it would need some separate equipment I think.
I have looked at the AFR graph while driving, and it shows.... a perfect 4.7 AFR (With deviations for short periods of acceleration deceleration) just like before.
But of course, the ECU /thinks/ it's putting enough fuel in to hit 4.7 but... since it's MAF value has been tweaked by 5% (or whatever) it's putting in 5% less fuel to hit that target and then seems to be reporting that value through the OBD port. So I'm not sure that AFR value is an actual reading as much as it is a statement of intent by the ECU.
I would be interested if someone did an analysis of those issues that has the proper tools and knowledge to measure actual values separately from the ECU which is being tricked. That part is a bit beyond me I'm afraid
What scares me more are the people that buy used super chargers and slap them on without going in and getting their ECUs reprogrammed to handle it. Yikes!
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