CS144 to solve battery mystery

[tyr0981]

So my latest mystery is i keep going through batteries every ~8-12 months, battery voltage at cold start idle is 14V at its lowest i've seen it charging at 13.02 V (according to Ultra-Gauge).... So besides a horrible run of luck with batteries, it would have to be my ALT no putting out enough Ampere right?

So i'm thingking about installing a bigger ALT, the CS144, i looked around Rock Auto and write ups and came up with the what looks like the necessary pieces:

So does this make sense to anyone else? and besides the spacers (washers) am i getting the right stuff?

Thanks in advance, again!

 

[LittleCaesar]

I am thinking that you have a loose ground or wire somewhere or even a parasitic drain on a circuit if you are going through batteries this quickly. If the generator was not working correctly, or dying, it would be apparent. I'd take it to get bench tested before springing for a cs-144.

Doc's write-up on his cs144 is great. He may chime in with his link to such.

The Big 3 upgrade may be in your future.

This may help just to cover some basics:
Voltage Drop Testing

 

[tyr0981]

I am thinking that you have a loose ground or wire somewhere or even a parasitic drain on a circuit if you are going through batteries this quickly. If the generator was not working correctly, or dying, it would be apparent. I'd take it to get bench tested before springing for a cs-144.

Doc's write-up on his cs144 is great. He may chime in with his link to such.

The Big 3 upgrade may be in your future.

This may help just to cover some basics:
Voltage Drop Testing

i've already done the big 3, i was thinking that it may have been a ground problem, it did help my stereo sound ALLOT better! but that was really the only improvement, bench testing the ALT sounds interesting... i've been chasing this issue for a long time is why i guessed the ALT, the only piece of the puzzle i haven't replaced yet.....

 

[LittleCaesar]

If I were to armchair guess, I'd say ground first and parasitic drain second. I just don't see anything that points to an immediate generator (ALT) failure. But if you have done the Big 3 upgrade, it may have been a bad negative ground beforehand, and the generator just got extended to its capacity. That is why I'd pull it and have it tested first.

But if you have the green for a CS144, here you go:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/135318-docs-cs144-alternator-upgrade.html

 

[Quadsbc]

Just because you bench test the alternator and it comes back good does not mean that the alternator is not the problem. I recently had my subarus alternator bench tested and it came back all good. I used a megger and found that it had shorted internally. Enough to cause the alternator to test properly on the bench but not enough to charge a low battery.
If your positive that you don't have a bad ground. Or have a short in the wires from alternator to battery. I would try a replacement alternator.

 

[e46inperrycounty]

Big 3 will allow your batteries to drain quicker when power is demanded. The stock 85 amp Alt is probably incapable of keeping up with your power demands. An agm battery will help and getting a decent charger/maintainer and hooking it up nightly will also help. Once you run a battery below12.5 resting voltage it becomes difficult for the Alt to charge the battery while it is also supplying other electronics with their required power. 2 102 amp hour c&d batteries, and 2 hc1800's with 160 amps of Alt power just barely fed my 5kwrms competition setup for 30 seconds at a time before voltage dropped below 12.5 and I would be forced to turn it down. Get a dash mounted voltage meter (~$3 on ebay) and watch your voltage while you are driving. You should be no lower than 13.6 with the blower fan on high, high beams on, stereo at a moderate level, and wipers on. If you are below 13.6 then you need more amperage output from your Alt or a battery bank the latter being a bandaid on a severed arm basically. I've done the math on amperage requirements for my 4runner and will be getting a singer high output 270amp alt. I won't be running any audio amps in there either... that will just be for lights and the winch. My batteries will be pulled from the competition car and put into the 4runner so my voltage doesn't drop below 13.8-14.1 with everything running.. higher voltage means less amperage required and therefore less heat generation and less strain on the alternator. Just some things to keep in mind when adding any type of aftermarket pieces that require power.

 

[IBallEngineer]

All I see is disinformation in these answers. NO KIND of battery requires less input from the alternator, amperage draw is the same across any kind of battery assuming equal loads. If you are draining the battery while not charging, the type of battery can have a big impact, but I don't see that as the OP's problem, or he didn't indicate that.

Bench testing an alternator is only that, testing it in a controlled environment, eliminating any possible problems the car may have.

13.02 should keep any battery charged, it is low, but not unworkable.

In order to properly trouble shoot this situation you need to provide a lot more information. What is the amperage draw at idle, and at higher rpms, are you running any unusually large always hot equipment, etc. You don't need to bench test to see if the charging system is working. You may have a bad diode, internal shorts are virtually non-existent.

If you don't have the tools, get a quality shop to test it, don't guess. If you have enough understanding and some tools. You can trouble shoot it with or with out help from people here.

Electricity is not a mystery.

:snacker:

 

[IBallEngineer]

13.02 should keep any battery charged, it is low, but not unworkable.



Electricity is not a mystery.

:snacker:

For the record, I'd think if you had someone put a load tester on the 13V would drop significantly indicating a bad alternator. I wouldn't condemn it based on the 13V, but it IS a likely failed, or failing part. Have it tested.

 

[e46inperrycounty]

An agm has higher resting voltage, therefore it will have a higher voltage starting point. A weak alternator will not impact it as much as it will not have to work as hard to maintain the voltage. Alternators are not meant to charge a dead battery as the lower the starting voltage the more amperage the alternator will attempt to put out. It will get hot and reduce efficiency faster. Apparently you misunderstood what I was saying about agm batteries if you were directing that little slight towards me.

 

[e46inperrycounty]

A further example... if you have 1200 watts of power requirements on your electrical system and it is charging at 13 volts then you have exceeded the 85 amps of output that your alternator is capable of and you voltage will slowly drop lower and lower once your battery capacitance dwindles. However, with the same required 1200 at 14.4 volts charging you are at ~83 amps and within (barely) reason. Personally I wouldn't run more than 1000 watts of demand on an 85amp alternator as it will constantly have the field active trying to keep the system afloat. The addition of agm (higher resting voltage) batteries will add capacitance (storage) for a setup that is on the ragged edge of required power vs. alternator output ability. Running aftermarket lighting and a nice stereo is probably too much required power for the little stock Alt to keep up with. What amp/amps are you running, what lights, what battery, what gauge wire and is that wire CCA or OFC (yes it will make a difference as voltage drop will come into play and require more amperage)

 

[dgoll75]

I had this very issue a few years ago. The stock alternators are just wimpy. I had added a 750 watt amp to my otherwise mild stereo set up the first month I owned the truck. I've done this on many other stock vehicles with no issue. However, with my T4R I started having battery replacements every several months. Good news was the 2 times I had to replace the battery I got them free under warranty. After the last time I decided to go for the CS144 swap. Haven't had an issue since (same batt 2 over years). So I can only say that odds are this will resolve your problems. Good luck.

 

[IBallEngineer]

An agm has higher resting voltage, therefore it will have a higher voltage starting point. A weak alternator will not impact it as much as it will not have to work as hard to maintain the voltage. Alternators are not meant to charge a dead battery as the lower the starting voltage the more amperage the alternator will attempt to put out. It will get hot and reduce efficiency faster. Apparently you misunderstood what I was saying about agm batteries if you were directing that little slight towards me.

My intent was not to slight anyone. Your post, and many I've seen not just in this thread have the tendency to obfuscate the situation. Great, you get .2V more at rest from an AGM battery! That doesn't solve his situation. Where did you get the idea he is drawing 1200 watts of power? And yes at 13V that is 92.3 amps, I have a calculator too. The OP stated his startup voltage is 14, but sometimes drops to 13, not a lot of information to go on but I don't think his problem is the type of battery he is using. And we don't know why his voltage dropped. It could be has had a string of bad batteries, I ran an auto electric shop 30 yrs ago, and I saw 5 alternators in a row that were all bad from what is now O'Reilly's but was Trak Auto back then.

I understand the benefits of AGM batteries in deep cycle applications, like your mega stereo played with the engine off. I don't think this is helping the OP, THAT was my point.

I'm sure you have some good knowledge to share, just trying to point out the thread wasn't addressing the real issue. Sorry if I offended.

opcorn:

 

[e46inperrycounty]

Stereo was played engine on and at 2k rpms. He said he has a stereo and big 3 helped his stereo. This tells me he has a subwoofer and amplifier meaning that with the inclusion of a couple of cheap lights, 500 watt amp for the sub, and headlights/heater/head unit, he could easily be exceeding the 85 amps of output. As stated, battery upgrades are a bandaid on a severed arm. All they do is add capacitance whereas the cs144 will put out the amperage he needs and then some. I've had batteries with bad cells from many stores and bad alts that were both remans and brand new from many as well (car quest is NOT the place to get BMW alts) bad fuel pumps, basically anything you can buy from any store has a chance of being bad out of the box. Been turning wrenches to put food on the table for the past 12 years as well as doing custom stereo builds. This situation is more than likely one where his Alt is on its last leg, cold it charges fine, once warm it drops off and with the added electrical requirements he is discharging constantly and never recharging. And for the record, my agms rest at 13.2 after being properly maintained for the last year. Nearly a full volt above lead acid wet cells rest at brand new. Another issue that he will run into once his voltage drops into the 12v region is that his amp will end up popping the MOSFETs or burning a hole in the board or swelling and popping the capacitors. I know that from years of experience in the competition audio scene. The cs144 is a great choice for upgrade and companies like singer and mechman(things haven't been good with mechman products lately) make 320+amp alts in the cs144 case for a much cheaper price than with the Toyota case. I don't sell alts or batteries so I really have no dog in this fight. I'm giving advice based on my extensive knowledge of current automotive alternators and electrical component requirements...

 

[e46inperrycounty]

According to his sig, 1200 watts of required power is a huge low ball estimate....

 

[ARC]

Electricity is not a mystery.

:smash: It is to me.


But I am learning...

 

[tyr0981]

Yeah the speaker is 1200 W, but i'm running it with a JL250.1, i have all sorts of electrical accessories, lights & winch, but this battery has seen none in use,the stereo is a pioneer P7700MP (~200watts RMS), batteries seem to die very fast, one day it's fine, next day the starting is VERY labored, same voltage read outs on the Ultra Gauge before that the volt meter, ~13ish volts.the only constant draw is an aftermarket alarm, i do have a small draw from this, but again one day working fine, the next turning the engine over is nearly not happening, very frustrating for me too!

 

[e46inperrycounty]

I think your Alt is on its way out man. If you want to try and rule out the battery itself, you can disconnect it from the truck, hook it up to a charger and once I this fully charged let it sit for 24-48 hours and see where its resting voltage is. If it has a bad cell you will know within a few hours or minutes even. If you have something else to drive you could also try putting another warranty battery in it and letting it sit for a few days. If you have a parasitic draw that is bad enough to eat batteries then it should suck a brand new battery down within a couple days. I have a draw tester I got from matco. If it shows more than 1/4 amp of draw once the ecu goes to sleep then I start pulling fuses until I track down the culprit.

 

[tyr0981]

I think your Alt is on its way out man. If you want to try and rule out the battery itself, you can disconnect it from the truck, hook it up to a charger and once I this fully charged let it sit for 24-48 hours and see where its resting voltage is. If it has a bad cell you will know within a few hours or minutes even. If you have something else to drive you could also try putting another warranty battery in it and letting it sit for a few days. If you have a parasitic draw that is bad enough to eat batteries then it should suck a brand new battery down within a couple days. I have a draw tester I got from matco. If it shows more than 1/4 amp of draw once the ecu goes to sleep then I start pulling fuses until I track down the culprit.

yeah, new batteries can sit for a long time, more than a week or more without trouble, the older they get (6 months or more) the more chance of dead / hard start they have....

 

[IBallEngineer]

Stereo was played engine on and at 2k rpms. He said he has a stereo and big 3 helped his stereo. This tells me he has a subwoofer and amplifier meaning that with the inclusion of a couple of cheap lights, 500 watt amp for the sub, and headlights/heater/head unit, he could easily be exceeding the 85 amps of output. As stated, battery upgrades are a bandaid on a severed arm. All they do is add capacitance whereas the cs144 will put out the amperage he needs and then some. I've had batteries with bad cells from many stores and bad alts that were both remans and brand new from many as well (car quest is NOT the place to get BMW alts) bad fuel pumps, basically anything you can buy from any store has a chance of being bad out of the box. Been turning wrenches to put food on the table for the past 12 years as well as doing custom stereo builds. This situation is more than likely one where his Alt is on its last leg, cold it charges fine, once warm it drops off and with the added electrical requirements he is discharging constantly and never recharging. And for the record, my agms rest at 13.2 after being properly maintained for the last year. Nearly a full volt above lead acid wet cells rest at brand new. Another issue that he will run into once his voltage drops into the 12v region is that his amp will end up popping the MOSFETs or burning a hole in the board or swelling and popping the capacitors. I know that from years of experience in the competition audio scene. The cs144 is a great choice for upgrade and companies like singer and mechman(things haven't been good with mechman products lately) make 320+amp alts in the cs144 case for a much cheaper price than with the Toyota case. I don't sell alts or batteries so I really have no dog in this fight. I'm giving advice based on my extensive knowledge of current automotive alternators and electrical component requirements...

Alright let's say he has a stereo like it says in his signature line. 500W is a huge assumption. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that "most" people don't play in that game. And as an installer/builder, you know just because it says 500W on the box, don't mean it puts out 500W RMS. Can we just diagnosis his alternator/battery problem and quit beating our chests about how much we know?

OP should have his charging system checked. It's not hard to see what he is drawing with everything on, that way he can know if he just needs a new alternator, or a better alternator. Oh, and PLEASE have the battery tested too!

OP, give us some wattage figures on ALL your accessories except the winch, the winch is it's own issue. Then we can see what alternator you actually need.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Yeah the speaker is 1200 W, but i'm running it with a JL250.1, i have all sorts of electrical accessories, lights & winch, but this battery has seen none in use,the stereo is a pioneer P7700MP (~200watts RMS), batteries seem to die very fast, one day it's fine, next day the starting is VERY labored, same voltage read outs on the Ultra Gauge before that the volt meter, ~13ish volts.the only constant draw is an aftermarket alarm, i do have a small draw from this, but again one day working fine, the next turning the engine over is nearly not happening, very frustrating for me too!

OK, this changes things. If you've read the exchange we've been having you'll get the picture. 1200 divided by 13 volts, nets 93 amps. And that is just your stereo. Of course it doesn't draw that much all the time, but your charging system is probably not able to keep up anyway. E46 is right about this. You still need to do that math and figure out what the best cure is. And again, Mr. BMW is correct stating that the battery would be a band aid. You need to be able to power all your accessories AND charge your battery.