D44 sas questions

[Elomar88]

So I'm slowly gathering parts and getting the axle ready for the sas on my 97 4runner and had a couple of questions to re gear the front to 4.88 gears do I have to get a different carrier it came stock with 3.31 its a Dana 44 out of a 87 grand wagoneer or do they make a thicker gear set for the front also like they do for a rear d44 but in reverse rotation . Second question is how much did you guys clock the knuckles on the axles for the caster I read somewhere 5/16" but wanted a second opinion come out sas guru's wherever you are lol thanks in advance

 

[IBallEngineer]

So I'm slowly gathering parts and getting the axle ready for the sas on my 97 4runner and had a couple of questions to re gear the front to 4.88 gears do I have to get a different carrier it came stock with 3.31 its a Dana 44 out of a 87 grand wagoneer or do they make a thicker gear set for the front also like they do for a rear d44 but in reverse rotation . Second question is how much did you guys clock the knuckles on the axles for the caster I read somewhere 5/16" but wanted a second opinion come out sas guru's wherever you are lol thanks in advance

Pretty sure you can get the ring gear for the high ratio carrier. Last one I did was 4.56 in the front of a Nissan Frontier and had the smaller carrier.

The rotation of the C's is predicated on how you set up your pinion angle. If you go from stock, with the spring perches level to the ground, we'll call that Zero. Then rotate the housing to the desired pinion angle and check the angle of the perches. You might be 4 degrees, but that depends on your lift and how far forward you go with the axle. And of course a high pinion would be different from a standard gear set. I've never measured the rotation using inches, always degrees.

 

[Andy in Pa]

When I built my HP D44 a few years ago, I planned on around 10-12* of caster. This is defined as the upper portion of the inner C tilted back approximately that much. This was for a 4 link though, so I was able to make fine adjustments as needed by adjusting the control arms. Get yourself a degree wheel, find the best "flat" that you can on the inner C and check it.

If your using leaf springs, definitely mock it up and put the weight of the vehicle on it (on or close to ride height/level) before burning those inner C's in place.

This is definitely one of those "measure twice, cut(weld) once" type of things if your not a builder and don't have a jig mocked up. :wink2:

 

[MStudt]

488's for a D44 are easy to find, and most places will carry them. As mentioned if you have a high pinion you'll need to find reverse cut for that.

You're asking about clocking the knuckles. It's all going to depend on the pinion angle you run, and that will be determined by the drive shaft you're going to use. A drive shaft that's single vs double will have different pinion angles.

 

[white_n_slow]

As these guys have mentioned, the amount you want to rotate during your cut & turn is dependent on the pinion angle you want (running a DC driveshaft or standard driveshaft?), how much your truck will be lifted and how much caster you want to have. I would shoot for 4-6* caster at ride hight, personally. There is no "standard" measurement, you should cut'n'turn to match your specific setup.

 

[IBallEngineer]

When I built my HP D44 a few years ago, I planned on around 10-12* of caster. This is defined as the upper portion of the inner C tilted back approximately that much. This was for a 4 link though, so I was able to make fine adjustments as needed by adjusting the control arms. Get yourself a degree wheel, find the best "flat" that you can on the inner C and check it.

If your using leaf springs, definitely mock it up and put the weight of the vehicle on it (on or close to ride height/level) before burning those inner C's in place.

This is definitely one of those "measure twice, cut(weld) once" type of things if your not a builder and don't have a jig mocked up. :wink2:

Not busting your chops but if you measured only the upper section of the C your caster angle would be double the amount moved. Caster is the line drawn between the center of the upper pivot and the lower pivot.

http://pictures.dealer.com/c/ccinorthyork/1092/fdf358ed40463872003bce70380a6290.gif

So as you increase the rearward rotation of the top, you increase the forward rotation of the bottom. I wouldn't run 10 degrees of caster on a D44, I'd keep it around 4 degrees. Steering effort would be crazy high at 10 and would cause tire wear due to camber effect in turns. Unless high speed straight line stability is your goal, don't get crazy.

 

[Andy in Pa]

Not busting your chops but if you measured only the upper section of the C your caster angle would be double the amount moved. Caster is the line drawn between the center of the upper pivot and the lower pivot.

http://pictures.dealer.com/c/ccinorthyork/1092/fdf358ed40463872003bce70380a6290.gif

So as you increase the rearward rotation of the top, you increase the forward rotation of the bottom. I wouldn't run 10 degrees of caster on a D44, I'd keep it around 4 degrees. Steering effort would be crazy high at 10 and would cause tire wear due to camber effect in turns. Unless high speed straight line stability is your goal, don't get crazy.

My build worked out great. I can spin the wheels lock to lock with no issues with my pinky.

I mocked it up for 4* of caster, and it was not enough. I have a simple magnetic angle finder (on this gauge, 90* is "0", like this one, only not as cheap Angle Finder w/ Dial Gauge ), and I simply stick it on the upper portion of the C by the upper ball joint, and it gives me what degree from 90* my inner C is sitting at. 4* of tilt across a vertical line a foot long is not much when plans are to run a tall/heavy tire/wheel combo, and still maintain on-road drive-abilities. For example, take a piece of paper, hold it straight up and down, now pick up one lower corner of the paper off your desk roughly 1/4-3/8". That is close to 4*. The more vertical, the more a vehicle will have a very floaty (front end wanders around and doesn't self-center well) feel when driving. I consulted quite a few local builders when I built mine (like I said, didn't want to make any mistakes) and I used their recommendations.

 

[JtuckerSvces]

Not busting your chops but if you measured only the upper section of the C your caster angle would be double the amount moved. Caster is the line drawn between the center of the upper pivot and the lower pivot.

http://pictures.dealer.com/c/ccinorthyork/1092/fdf358ed40463872003bce70380a6290.gif

So as you increase the rearward rotation of the top, you increase the forward rotation of the bottom. I wouldn't run 10 degrees of caster on a D44, I'd keep it around 4 degrees. Steering effort would be crazy high at 10 and would cause tire wear due to camber effect in turns. Unless high speed straight line stability is your goal, don't get crazy.

The knuckles at absolute perpendicular 0* will have approx 10* pinion pitch in the casting.

Also to the Op the 4.88 needs the 4.10 up (select 3.73's) carrier. the pinion is tiny on the 4.88 and the thicker gear is mearly only part of the compensation needed to mate the ring/pinion.

 

[IBallEngineer]

My build worked out great. I can spin the wheels lock to lock with no issues with my pinky.

I mocked it up for 4* of caster, and it was not enough. I have a simple magnetic angle finder (on this gauge, 90* is "0", like this one, only not as cheap Angle Finder w/ Dial Gauge ), and I simply stick it on the upper portion of the C by the upper ball joint, and it gives me what degree from 90* my inner C is sitting at. 4* of tilt across a vertical line a foot long is not much when plans are to run a tall/heavy tire/wheel combo, and still maintain on-road drive-abilities. For example, take a piece of paper, hold it straight up and down, now pick up one lower corner of the paper off your desk roughly 1/4-3/8". That is close to 4*. The more vertical, the more a vehicle will have a very floaty (front end wanders around and doesn't self-center well) feel when driving. I consulted quite a few local builders when I built mine (like I said, didn't want to make any mistakes) and I used their recommendations.

So the angle of the C is not necessarily the Caster angle. Easy enough to check Caster after the fact. Have you ever checked yours? I can tell you very few cars outside of BMW and MBZ have 10 degrees of positive caster. Our 3rd gens don't come close to that, not even half of that.

Caster isn't the only angle that contributes to self centering, in fact SAI(Steering Axis Inclination) often has more involvement if Caster is very low. Typically vehicles using solid front axles had even lower Caster(close to Zero), but SAI made up for it.

And I'll say again, 10 degrees is way too much, the camber at even 5 degrees of turn would be 3 or 4 degrees negative on the inside wheel in a turn. Modern front suspensions can deal with that, live axles don't deal with anything.

 

[Andy in Pa]

So the angle of the C is not necessarily the Caster angle. Easy enough to check Caster after the fact. Have you ever checked yours? I can tell you very few cars outside of BMW and MBZ have 10 degrees of positive caster. Our 3rd gens don't come close to that, not even half of that.

Caster isn't the only angle that contributes to self centering, in fact SAI(Steering Axis Inclination) often has more involvement if Caster is very low. Typically vehicles using solid front axles had even lower Caster(close to Zero), but SAI made up for it.

And I'll say again, 10 degrees is way too much, the camber at even 5 degrees of turn would be 3 or 4 degrees negative on the inside wheel in a turn. Modern front suspensions can deal with that, live axles don't deal with anything.

I don't know what to tell ya... we set up my axle in an axle builders jig, layed it all out using suggestions from many other builders and burned them on. Its been fine for 6 years and 30,000 miles in my Jeep, with 37's most of that time.

We can agree to disagree, I am good with that....:boxer::cheers:

 

[csp]

So I'm slowly gathering parts and getting the axle ready for the sas on my 97 4runner and had a couple of questions to re gear the front to 4.88 gears do I have to get a different carrier

To use a standard thickness ring gear you need a carrier for 3.92 and up (numerically) gearsets. It's a perfect time to make that carrier a locker instead.

its a Dana 44 out of a 87 grand wagoneer or do they make a thicker gear set for the front also like they do for a rear d44 but in reverse rotation.

First of all there is no such thing as reverse rotation. There are reverse cut (or reverse spiral) gearsets for high pinion front axles, but the HP Dana 44 was only used in Fords. Standard cut gears were used in an '87 GW, and the same gearset would be used in both the front and rear Dana 44 axles. If you find a thick 4.88, standard cut gearset it will work in your Dana 44. Reverse rotation is probably the worst misnomer found in the offroad parts world.

I would agree with IBallEngineer that 10 degrees of positive caster is totally unnecessary. I would never go over 7 degrees, while targeting 5-6.

 

[amalik]

To use a standard thickness ring gear you need a carrier for 3.92 and up (numerically) gearsets. It's a perfect time to make that carrier a locker instead.



First of all there is no such thing as reverse rotation. There are reverse cut (or reverse spiral) gearsets for high pinion front axles, but the HP Dana 44 was only used in Fords. Standard cut gears were used in an '87 GW, and the same gearset would be used in both the front and rear Dana 44 axles. If you find a thick 4.88, standard cut gearset it will work in your Dana 44. Reverse rotation is probably the worst misnomer found in the offroad parts world.

I would agree with IBallEngineer that 10 degrees of positive caster is totally unnecessary. I would never go over 7 degrees, while targeting 5-6.

Your axle and tech knowledge is crazy for being.... aren't you a cop?

 

[csp]

Nope, csp is my initials not having anything to do with Colorado State Patrol. I have 25 yrs experience as a CPA and recently turned my hobby of construction (have built several homes on the side) into a career to get away from corporate BS. I was raised a gearhead though, fourwheeling and drag racing and fixing it all when it broke.

 

[amalik]

Nope, csp is my initials not having anything to do with Colorado State Patrol. I have 25 yrs experience as a CPA and recently turned my hobby of construction (have built several homes on the side) into a career to get away from corporate BS. I was raised a gearhead though, fourwheeling and drag racing and fixing it all when it broke.

oh good stuff man, for some reason thought you were CSP, LOL! thanks for clarifying.

hello from a fellow Coloradan. I'm in Denver, but Parker is a beautiful and up and coming area.

Corporate BS, tell me about it.

 

[csp]

No, Parker was beautiful before it was up and coming. Now it's just another f#(%ing subdivision and traffic jam. Up and coming has been over for years now.

Sorry for the tangent OP.

 

[IBallEngineer]

I don't know what to tell ya... we set up my axle in an axle builders jig, layed it all out using suggestions from many other builders and burned them on. Its been fine for 6 years and 30,000 miles in my Jeep, with 37's most of that time.

We can agree to disagree, I am good with that....:boxer::cheers:

So have you ever checked your caster? 5000 miles per year isn't exactly a normal usage test either. op2:

 

[Andy in Pa]

So have you ever checked your caster? 5000 miles per year isn't exactly a normal usage test either. op2:

Yes, of course. Just changed my UCA bushings this year, and re-set up all the angles again. It is sitting quite happily between 8-10* as we speak.:shocked:. :deadhorse:

 

[IBallEngineer]

Yes, of course. Just changed my UCA bushings this year, and re-set up all the angles again. It is sitting quite happily between 8-10* as we speak.:shocked:. :deadhorse:

You have Control Arms on a Dana 44? Or links, adjustable I assume if you say you re-set up the angles. Although Caster and Toe are all you could possibly adjust.

Edit, so you didn't rotate the the C a full 10 degrees as you stated earlier, otherwise you'd have 20 degrees of caster. Or more, since it may have already had some caster prior to rotating.

 

[csp]

Edit, so you didn't rotate the the C a full 10 degrees as you stated earlier, otherwise you'd have 20 degrees of caster. Or more, since it may have already had some caster prior to rotating.

Huh?

Ten degrees from vertical (or from whatever the beginning point was) is just ten degrees. You don't add the ten degrees at the top to the ten degrees at the bottom to come up with a sum of 20.

 

[IBallEngineer]

This is defined as the upper portion of the inner C tilted back approximately that much.

I went back an re-read what I was addressing. I originally thought he was saying he measured the upper rotation only from the center of the axle rotation. Which WOULD equate to double the rotation. Not sure how I misread that except he only mentions the upper portion of the C. @CSP made me question what I was trying to say, and I realized he did not say what I thought he said.

MY BAD, and my apologies to [MENTION=108845]Andy in Pa[/MENTION]

Sticking to my guns on the 10 degrees being too much, even 8. :bash: