Engine Swap

[Alan M]

Hi folks,
My son has a 2003 4 Runner with the 4 ltr engine that has blown its motor (spun a rod bearing) and we have installed a used 2008 4 ltr engine which we were assured by the supplier would swap in no problem. The garage doing the work cannot get it to run and they suspect that the cam sensors might be to blame. The old engine has two wire sensors and the newer '08 engine has three wire sensors. The actual sensors look the same so they tried putting the old two wires in the new engine but it still didn't work. They're thinking that to change the sensors to the two wire ones that the old CPU will recognize will require the front engine covers to come off and that requires a special tool that only Toyota has. I've talked to the Toyota dealership and they don't seem to know much about it as I don't imagine swapping used engines is something they ever do. Their only answer so far is that it might not be possible.
So, my questions are, has anyone ever done this swap and if so what was involved in making it work? Is the garage onto the right track thinking it's the sensors?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Alan

 

[eddiebx]

Hi folks,
My son has a 2003 4 Runner with the 4 ltr engine that has blown its motor (spun a rod bearing) and we have installed a used 2008 4 ltr engine which we were assured by the supplier would swap in no problem. The garage doing the work cannot get it to run and they suspect that the cam sensors might be to blame. The old engine has two wire sensors and the newer '08 engine has three wire sensors. The actual sensors look the same so they tried putting the old two wires in the new engine but it still didn't work. They're thinking that to change the sensors to the two wire ones that the old CPU will recognize will require the front engine covers to come off and that requires a special tool that only Toyota has. I've talked to the Toyota dealership and they don't seem to know much about it as I don't imagine swapping used engines is something they ever do. Their only answer so far is that it might not be possible.
So, my questions are, has anyone ever done this swap and if so what was involved in making it work? Is the garage onto the right track thinking it's the sensors?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Alan

I don't know the answer specific to your problem but, could your mechanic see if whatever triggers the senors are swappable as well? Usually you have the cam sensor sitting stationary on the cover and then a gear with magnets attached to the cam spinning around and triggering the sensor. Perhaps there is an incomaptiblity issue there between the 3wire and the 2wire sensor/trigger combo; hence the 2wire sensor not being able to read the trigger properly...

 

[Alan M]

I don't know the answer specific to your problem but, could your mechanic see if whatever triggers the senors are swappable as well? Usually you have the cam sensor sitting stationary on the cover and then a gear with magnets attached to the cam spinning around and triggering the sensor. Perhaps there is an incomaptiblity issue there between the 3wire and the 2wire sensor/trigger combo; hence the 2wire sensor not being able to read the trigger properly...

Thanks Eddiebx, I think that is what he's talking about when he says that the timing cover etc. has to come off to get at but I will double check with him.

Alan

 

[Troymclure]

I had a shop go through this exact same thing. The problem is there are several very slightly different engine codes for the v6 since they came in tacomas, 4runners (two different v6's for 03-05, and 06-09) and fj cruisers as well. You have to match the engine code exactly to your particular car and year, which is incredibly annoying. So basically, the shop bought a used motor, put it in and couldn't get it to run. They sent to the local toyota dealer, where they had it for 3 months before figuring out it was not the correct engine. They tried swapping the cam shaft sensors and a new ecu all of which did nothing. In the end, they said I needed the correct motor, so they sent it back to the original shop to get another motor put in. Finally they found a motor that worked and had it installed. Luckily it was all covered under insurance, otherwise I would have been screwed. According to toyota, there is no way around having the wrong engine, as you would have to get a new ecu, and have it custom made to work with the newer engine and older other electronics. Sucks, but thats the way it is. Good luck.

EDIT: If I were you, I would take it up with the supplier since they assured you it would work. Have them find you the actual correct motor.

 

[Alan M]

I had a shop go through this exact same thing. The problem is there are several very slightly different engine codes for the v6 since they came in tacomas, 4runners (two different v6's for 03-05, and 06-09) and fj cruisers as well. You have to match the engine code exactly to your particular car and year, which is incredibly annoying. So basically, the shop bought a used motor, put it in and couldn't get it to run. They sent to the local toyota dealer, where they had it for 3 months before figuring out it was not the correct engine. They tried swapping the cam shaft sensors and a new ecu all of which did nothing. In the end, they said I needed the correct motor, so they sent it back to the original shop to get another motor put in. Finally they found a motor that worked and had it installed. Luckily it was all covered under insurance, otherwise I would have been screwed. According to toyota, there is no way around having the wrong engine, as you would have to get a new ecu, and have it custom made to work with the newer engine and older other electronics. Sucks, but thats the way it is. Good luck.


EDIT: If I were you, I would take it up with the supplier since they assured you it would work. Have them find you the actual correct motor.

Thanks Jake although that's not the answer I really wanted to hear :-(
The garage doing the swap says the cam phasers on the end of the camshafts are different in both engines (different number of lobes) and they think swapping them might solve the problem but judging from your experience that won't work either.

 

[gm350reratliff]

Give this thread a look. Seems they had to do something different to make it all work too.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/51415-engine-goner-warped-head-long-block.html

 

[Stuck CAPS]

To answer the question about the sensors is that the new is MRE type and the old is pick-up

 

[Alan M]

Give this thread a look. Seems they had to do something different to make it all work too.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/51415-engine-goner-warped-head-long-block.html

Wow, thanks for that. I did look through old posts before I asked but didn't see this one. Although the original poster did end up going back to his original year engine it looks like another poster managed the switch by swapping the cam position sensors and timing gears on the front of the cams which is basically what the garage thought needed doing.
Now the only problem I can see is that both models apparently had different trannies, 4spd auto in the '03 and 5spd in the '08. Hope that doesn't cause problems.
Thanks again.
Alan

 

[Alan M]

To answer the question about the sensors is that the new is MRE type and the old is pick-up

Thanks, I'm going to take the truck over to the Toyota dealership and hopefully they'll be able to figure it out.

 

[CookieRoe]

Good luck Alan, hope you (or they) figure it out. This isn't the first time I've heard that the engines have to match up pretty much perfectly. The 08 1GRFE V6 had some changes compared to the 03 1GRFE V6.

From wiki: The 1GR-FE is the 4.0 L (3956 cc) version, designed for longitudinal mounting in RWD and 4WD pickup applications. It has a 94 mm bore and a stroke of 95 mm. Output is 236 hp (176 kW) at 5200 rpm with 266 lb·ft (361 N·m) of torque at 4000 rpm on 87 octane, and 239 hp (178 kW) at 5200 rpm with 278 lb·ft (377 N·m) at 3700 rpm on 91 octane. This engine features Toyota's VVT-i, variable valve timing system on the intake cam and a compression ratio of 10.0:1. Service weight, including fluids, is 166 kg (366 lb).

An updated version of this engine features Dual VVT-i, increasing output to 254 hp (189 kW) and 270 lb·ft (366 N·m) on 87 octane and 285 hp (213 kW) and 289 lb·ft (392 N·m) on 91 octane. Inside, the 1GR uses a "taper-squish" combustion chamber design with matching pistons to improve anti-knocking and engine performance, while also improving intake and fuel efficiency.........

good luck

 

[Alan M]

Good luck Alan, hope you (or they) figure it out. This isn't the first time I've heard that the engines have to match up pretty much perfectly. The 08 1GRFE V6 had some changes compared to the 03 1GRFE V6.

From wiki: The 1GR-FE is the 4.0 L (3956 cc) version, designed for longitudinal mounting in RWD and 4WD pickup applications. It has a 94 mm bore and a stroke of 95 mm. Output is 236 hp (176 kW) at 5200 rpm with 266 lb·ft (361 N·m) of torque at 4000 rpm on 87 octane, and 239 hp (178 kW) at 5200 rpm with 278 lb·ft (377 N·m) at 3700 rpm on 91 octane. This engine features Toyota's VVT-i, variable valve timing system on the intake cam and a compression ratio of 10.0:1. Service weight, including fluids, is 166 kg (366 lb).

An updated version of this engine features Dual VVT-i, increasing output to 254 hp (189 kW) and 270 lb·ft (366 N·m) on 87 octane and 285 hp (213 kW) and 289 lb·ft (392 N·m) on 91 octane. Inside, the 1GR uses a "taper-squish" combustion chamber design with matching pistons to improve anti-knocking and engine performance, while also improving intake and fuel efficiency.........

good luck

Thanks Ed,
I had seen that Wikipedia article as well. Got me a little worried but I'm still hopeful that this can be resolved. Of course it will mean throwing a bit more cash at it. I wish my son wasn't so far away or I'd have done the swap myself with a friend.
I'll keep you guys posted. You've been a great help.

Alan

Alan

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Yeah, Toyota is a little weird in that they don't specify the difference between engines with a sub-code like say you may see with a VW. Which is frustrating, what they do seem to do is use a small section of the VIN about 5-6 digits long to determine the loadout of the vehicle; but I am unsure how they decode this section.

When we look up warranty information for vehicles we have to use this small section to find accurate data for information relating to the vehicle, but in the FSM these codes are rarely if ever mentioned nor even explained and thus a subtle difference such as the two wire sensors being updated to 3 wire sensors is never noticed because as far as Toyota is concerned the technician is going to be using the FSM for that model year and there is no reason to educate the technicians about these types of in-line updates. (Very frustrating sometimes as you are currently experiencing.)

In regards to the sensors, if I remember right from some other threads; they are different sensors that go with slightly updated cam phasers.

 

[Alan M]

Hi guys,
I thought I'd bring you up to date on my saga and ask one more question.
As I feared the Toyota dealership will not guarantee that swapping the cam position sensors or even getting a new ECM will make this '08 engine work in my son's '03 truck. To do the cam sensors and gears would be about 13 hours labour so it's not worth trying in my opinion.
Anyhow, I just thought of one other possibility. What if they were to put the old '03 head on the new '08 block? I assume all the electrical stuff that is causing incompatibility is located in the head so would this solution work?
I'm not sure how much that would cost but we've gone this far and I can't imagine that the vehicle is worth all that much without a working engine. If this was a sure bet then maybe it would be worth doing if my son could get many more years of service out of it. I wish he wasn't so far away as I'd do the darn swap myself.
Thanks,
Alan

 

[gm350reratliff]

You may want to PM a guy that goes by TORSPD on Tacoma world forum. He seems pretty knowledgable in this area and has built and swapped his Tacoma engine a few times. I don't personally know him but have followed his turbo build thread. It's worth a shot.

 

[Alan M]

You may want to PM a guy that goes by TORSPD on Tacoma world forum. He seems pretty knowledgable in this area and has built and swapped his Tacoma engine a few times. I don't personally know him but have followed his turbo build thread. It's worth a shot.

Thanks Ron.

 

[Alan M]

You may want to PM a guy that goes by TORSPD on Tacoma world forum. He seems pretty knowledgable in this area and has built and swapped his Tacoma engine a few times. I don't personally know him but have followed his turbo build thread. It's worth a shot.

Hi all,
I thought I'd bring everyone up to date on my little engine swap dilemma. I did contact the fellow on the Tacoma forum that Ron recommended and he confirmed he had done the cam gear swap and it would work. Had the dealership swap in a new set and voila, the truck is now up and running again. Thanks again to all who helped out.

Alan

 

[gm350reratliff]

Glad you got it going again!:thumb3:

 

[weeum]

This may be too late but the only fundamental difference that I found is the sensor and the signal plate on the vvt actuator.
I change them out for the ones in my 04 4runner and the 05 Tacoma engine that I installed now runs as it should.
I performed a lengthy part number search and comparison and found only the actuator and sensor having a different part number. You do not have to buy the actuator though, you can just remove the actuator and swap the plates. They will easily pry off with a sturdy screwdriver.
I do know how much of this applies to the newer dual vvti engines.
Greg.


http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/180583-04-4runner-starts-dies.html#post1828451

 

[MarkinWMich]

One thing that I found out many years ago is that the dealerships are not much help when it comes to anything other than factory/OEM repairs. That is not to say that you cannot find a dealership that does performance mods, but those are few and far between. Now, having said that, you've got what should have been a simple engine swap, but some sort of electronics/sensor incompatibility. The first place I would direct these questions to is a shop that has some experience with this, and more specifically, a reputable import speed shop, or Toyota racing team. One such shop is Underdog Racing Development. They specialize in all aspects of engine mechanics, electronics, etc. I would think that if you spoke with the right person, they'd be able to get to the solution pretty quick.

Corporate Headquarters:
Underdog Racing Development, LLC
P.O. Box 39
Huntingtown, MD 20639
USA

Tel: (877) 887-3872
Fax: (410) 630-5011


Wholesale Inquiries - [email protected]
Technical Assistance - [email protected]
Product Inquiries - [email protected]
Order Status - [email protected]

 

[ktmjockey]

Another thread that really helped me figure out what's going on, cheers.