Engine Trouble caused by driving without oil

[TFRnoob]

Durk, I am on my way to buy a cheap 12V test light. I took the starter out so they can test it there so we can be sure it isn't that.

I will see if its good. If it is then I will follow you instructions and let you know which pins are lighting up etc

Thanks for all of the help again.

 

[TFRnoob]

Starter is good.

Got the 12V tester, going to install starter than start testing w/ the 12V tester

 

[TFRnoob]

Starter is back in...

commencing the 12V testing now.

 

[TFRnoob]

So what I need you to do is get a cheap 12V test light and hook the clamp to the negative (ground) battery post. Pull up on the starter relay in the engine fuse box just enough that you can get the probe to touch the contact blade without disengaging the relay from the socket. Have a helper turn the key to start. Do this for pins 1 and 3. Then do Pin 5 but no need to turn key, should be full-time. [If you prefer, all except Pin 3 can be checked with the relay completely removed, just stick the probe into the relay socket so you touch the contacts]. Then move the clamp to the POSITIVE post and touch the contact at Pin 2 (no need to turn key or install the relay here either, should be full-time.) I need to know at which pin or pins the light did not come on and I will have a pretty good idea of what area the problem is in. Can you handle that?

Here are some of the results (the ones I have so far)

When the ground is attached to the negative battery terminal the following happens:

1 never goes on
2 goes on when key in start position
3 never goes on
5 is always on

When the ground is attached to the positive battery terminal the following happens:

1 never goes on
2 is always off
3 is always on
5 always off

I do not see how I will be able to test the connections when the relay is in or half in. Maybe use a wire the hook into the connector and push half way in?

 

[TFRnoob]

Alright,

I used a wire I clipped from the engine harness from the 1998 engine to try my best to make contact with each of the terminals on the relay side while the rest of the relay is connected. I did this on all terminals when connected to both the (+) and (-) battery ports.

Here are the results:

When connected to the (+)

1 never
2 never
3 never
5 never

When connected to the (-)

1 never
2 never
3 never
5 never

I am suspicious of my results as all never got me any voltage illumination but it was the best I could come up with. However, maybe this is an indication of a bad relay? idk

 

[TheDurk]

Here are some of the results (the ones I have so far)

When the ground is attached to the negative battery terminal the following happens:

1 never goes on
2 goes on when key in start position
3 never goes on
5 is always on

When the ground is attached to the positive battery terminal the following happens:

1 never goes on
2 is always off
3 is always on
5 always off

I do not see how I will be able to test the connections when the relay is in or half in. Maybe use a wire the hook into the connector and push half way in?

OK, good try. You have main power to the relay which is good, no need to check the large fuses which is a pain to do.

The result on Pin 2 can't be right. It's a full-time ground. Turning the key should have no effect. I have to figure you swapped the results of Pin 2 and Pin 3.

Since you have main power and starter tests good, you can try this: see if you can get it to crank by jumping from Pin 3 to Pin 5. This is the same as jumping to the small post on the starter but a lot easier. But make sure it is 3 and 5, if you jump Pin 5 to Pin 2 that's a direct short and bad things will happen.

Don't worry about testing with the relay in for now. Please recheck the results for Pins 1, 2, and 3. The one that lights up with the clamp on the positive HAS to be Pin 2. The only one that will react to the key with the relay out is Pin 1.

Another important test is to use your test light on the STA fuse. There should be power on both ends of that fuse ONLY when the key is turned to the start position. Again, I am not testing the fuse, I am checking if other parts of the system are sending power to the fuse.

Here is the '98 circuit diagram. I am almost positive '97 is the same:

 

[Diezel]

There IS a chance, it's just a bad starter.

 

[TFRnoob]

There IS a chance, it's just a bad starter.

Even if I took it out and had the auto supply store test it?

When they tested it the guy was super new and told me he didn't know how to test it. He got the manager who seemed more confident and they went through the test and showed me that the gear popped out and spun like crazy.

I installed the starter again before conducting some of the 12V light tests.

Maybe I jammed the starter against the flexplate? I do not really think so though because there are two holes, I lined them up and bolted in. It seems like it should be straight forward.

 

[cashmoney]

Any luck?

 

[stir_fry_boy]

Did you get the correct bolts into the flywheel?

 

[Konkordmusk]

Santa Cruz is not very far from me. If you truly get stuck, please feel free to pm me and we can set up a time for me to come check things over. I've got all sorts of diagnostic tools, including an old DC shunt that's probably older than I am

 

[TFRnoob]

Might be the end of the road for this truck...

Any luck?

Seems like absolutely no luck. I mean quite literally 0 luck. :sobbing: I ended up completely stumped and towed it to a mechanic. They couldn't figure it out at first but eventually saw that I hadn't pushed one connector all of the way in. It was one of the engine harness connectors in the glove box area.

Engine started up and loud clanging and oil everywhere. Looks like rear main seal leak and who knows what the loud clanging is.

Looks like I am at square 1... only this time I am out >$1500.

Did you get the correct bolts into the flywheel?

Funny that you mention that... There is a loud clanging noise and the mechanic thinks that it could be either the main bearings or maybe the flexplate not completely torqued down. I know for a fact that I torqued the FP on with 61 ft lbs but I don't know for sure I used the correct bolts.

Santa Cruz is not very far from me. If you truly get stuck, please feel free to pm me and we can set up a time for me to come check things over. I've got all sorts of diagnostic tools, including an old DC shunt that's probably older than I am

Thanks! That is very kind. I really don't know what my next move is but I will definitely keep you in mind. Again, thanks!

 

[TFRnoob]

I spoke with the junkyard and they said they will not give money back.

They claimed that they performed a leak down test but I don't think that says a thing about the bottom end.

My original thought after I found out that all of my work was for nothing was to return the engine to the junkyard attached to the truck. In my fantasy land, I would get my money back for the engine and they would buy the rest of the truck with it. It looks like this will not be happening.

I am really stuck now it seems...

 

[stir_fry_boy]

Let me explain why I asked you about the flywheel bolts. 2 years ago I did a clutch in my now sold 2006 Corolla XRS. The clutch was a big PITA, first time it took me 14 hours to do, and I had done many in the past. After it was done, I tried to start it, wouldn't turn over. I connected the battery to a charger and tried again. No luck. Tried to turn the crankshaft pulley. It wouldn't budge at all. Guess what? I ordered ARP bolts for the new flywheel I installed. Took it all back apart, and found out that the bolts were too long and resulted in the bolts though the flywheel to bind against the block. Had to do the whole clutch again. It sucked. Lesson learned, I won't use anything but Toyota bolts in something like that again.

 

[TFRnoob]

Let me explain why I asked you about the flywheel bolts. 2 years ago I did a clutch in my now sold 2006 Corolla XRS. The clutch was a big PITA, first time it took me 14 hours to do, and I had done many in the past. After it was done, I tried to start it, wouldn't turn over. I connected the battery to a charger and tried again. No luck. Tried to turn the crankshaft pulley. It wouldn't budge at all. Guess what? I ordered ARP bolts for the new flywheel I installed. Took it all back apart, and found out that the bolts were too long and resulted in the bolts though the flywheel to bind against the block. Had to do the whole clutch again. It sucked. Lesson learned, I won't use anything but Toyota bolts in something like that again.

Ouch! That seems like it would have been a pain!

 

[stir_fry_boy]

Unfortunately, Sounds like you may have a similar problem.

 

[TFRnoob]

This is a long shot, but is there any chance that if I didn't put enough ATF fluid in the transmission that some noise could occur?

I put oil ATF and coolant before it went to the mechanic.

I am confident that the oil and coolant were completely filled.

However, the ATF may be a little low as I never got it started to shift the gears and get the ATF back into the torque converter.

My mechanic thinks the noise is either the flex plate or main bearings.
The oil seal is toast.

How difficult would throwing a new oil seal on the engine be?

I need some next steps. Is this a lost cause? Do I keep going? I love this truck now more than ever and I want to get rid of my SAAB but I can't really afford putting too much more $$$$$$ into the truck. If it is not going to work than what is the best way to get rid of it?

What are some possible sources of pronounced noises?

 

[Konkordmusk]

Low atf is not the issue. While the torque converter may be spinning, until the gear selector is in reverse or drive, the engine is not coupled with the transmission.
Low coolant would not cause this issue on first start up.
Low oil is possible but you said you checked that. If the rear main seal is leaking, there's a reason it started leaking, and a couple causes are ones you're mechanic has already mentioned. I highly doubt the main bearings are bad though, and would be more inclined to expect a loose flex plate.
You might be able to turn the engine by hand and watch the flex plate. I would pull the inspection plate to do this, or the starter.

Replacing the oil seal can be done by removing the transmission. Or the engine again.

 

[TFRnoob]

You might be able to turn the engine by hand and watch the flex plate. I would pull the inspection plate to do this, or the starter.

Replacing the oil seal can be done by removing the transmission. Or the engine again.

Could I replace the flex plate, flex plate bolts, the associated spacers and the oil seal just by removing the transmission? Is this an easier option than removing the engine?

Also, I am curious about the spacers for the flex plate... What is the correct orientation for the two spacers? Could it be possible that if me messing up the orientation of one or both of the spacers cause this issue? I remember putting a spacer between the crank shaft and the flex plate and the other between the flex plate and the bolts that hold it all together. I also remember that the one with the small lip was sandwiched between the flex plate and the bolts that hold it in and the lip faced towards the bolts and torque converter.

I think if the flex plate and oil seal are the issues I will give it another go... if not then maybe my fleeting career as a noobie DIY mechanic is over.

:smow: :sadwave: :help: :violin: haha

I haven't asked my mechanic what he would charge to do the rear main seal and the flex plate but he likened it to open heart surgery. What is a fair price for that these days? I know its mostly labor so I will likely just do it myself.

 

[cashmoney]

Flex plate and rear main aren't that drastic. You've got to remove the trans and flex plate to do the rear main seal.