Engineering Trade-offs

[homeyclaus]

Well, it's official. After what happened on the 23rd in Florida and just generally not being able to fit the family and a guest into the vehicle without overloading our travel trailer, we're looking at pickup trucks.

Front runner: 2013 Toyota Tundra 5.7L
Second up: 2013 Ram 1500 5.7L
Third: 2013 Ram 3500 6.7L CTD

Now, I realize that my front main seal failure had absolutely nothing to do with the fact we were towing 3700 lbs at the time. All Toyota engines are, at least to my knowledge, tested at 80% of redline for all their reliability ratings, and by tradition have all been rather high-rev designs. Even our 1GR-FE runs MUCH better after a 1000 miles pulling in 4th gear.

Of course, I really love my 4Runner. It drives great now that it has Bilsteins in it, and has met or exceeded expectations in everything it was asked to do. But we need (legal) seating for 6 in a pinch, and start adding a canoe and more bigger kid stuff (don't think weight, think volume, and dirty) and you can see where this is headed.

As it turns out, the sales guy who sold me my 4Runner at Darcars defected to Koons Toyota and made truck manager. And so his second sentence was "I'll order what you want if I can get it from the factory, and give you the same discounts as our on-the-lot trucks." Hard to pass up when you can then order a 5.7L Tundra base with a tow package, moonroof, and bench seats, in Spruce Mica no less. The only annoyance is that Tundras can't be had with a 4WD on-demand system (like 4WD auto in Ram and GM vehicles), and you can't get power bench seats.

Argh.

 

[1engineer]

From an engineering and economics perspective you have to go with Toyota. You know this so why are you even questioning it? Let's assume that either truck will do the job and perform flawlessly for five years. How much will the Dodge be worth compared to the Tundra? Yes, you had a piece of bad luck with the seal but overall Toyota is still the pick in the reliability and durability department. Go get it and quit looking at the dark side.

 

[philsey]

Why no Sequoia?

 

[homeyclaus]

From an engineering and economics perspective you have to go with Toyota. You know this so why are you even questioning it? Let's assume that either truck will do the job and perform flawlessly for five years. How much will the Dodge be worth compared to the Tundra? Yes, you had a piece of bad luck with the seal but overall Toyota is still the pick in the reliability and durability department. Go get it and quit looking at the dark side.

I did that math. You know there are effectively two front main seals on the 1GR-FE, an actual seal and a fail-safe. Which is why we could limp to somewhere other than a highway rest stop. I am going to go out on a limb and say that this isn't a common design feature/side effect.

The depreciation math is interesting; a new Tundra retails (not msrp) for 6-7k more than a 1500, comparing bench seat models to bench seats. It's not a fair comparison, since the 1500 (and 3500) bench seat models are really stripped down. At the 5 year mark, in terms of percentage residual value you're right, but in terms of dollar loss it's a tie, or slightly in favor of the 1500.

The 3500 is another equation entirely - around here there is a big premium on 5 year old diesels.

Of course, there total cost of ownership, and there the Toyota wins handily. This is balanced against me desiring something that I can fix once in a while. It's sad, I know. I have been looking for just the right VW lemon to satisfy this instead.

In terms of tooling (as in investment in tools), the Toyota also wins, since I have a Techstream, and don't have the Chrysler computer stuff. And reading their tech manuals, they like to do a lot of software updates - like every service stop. Just like BMW. Don't like.

Why no Sequoia?

Simple: price. They retail in the high 40's, and one can get a Nissan Armada in the low 30's. One of the requirements is to be able to tow 9000 lbs minimum since we're looking to upgrade the travel trailer sometime during the vehicle life span, so in either Armada or Sequoia you're looking at something with leather seats - one look at what's left of my Maxima's interior tells me that seat covers or not, three-year-olds and leather seats don't mix.

 

[Antman]

From an engineering and economics perspective you have to go with Toyota. You know this so why are you even questioning it? Let's assume that either truck will do the job and perform flawlessly for five years. How much will the Dodge be worth compared to the Tundra? Yes, you had a piece of bad luck with the seal but overall Toyota is still the pick in the reliability and durability department. Go get it and quit looking at the dark side.

^^^What he said.

Can't say I didn't see this coming! I know Brock is happy with his decision with the Tundra. Honestly, the only reason I didn't go with a Tundra is the gas mileage. After my Titan experience- 12mpg, $100 fillups-weekly-, I had to make a change.
No 4Runner will tow as effortlessly as a full size pickup, but they do perform admirably and still meet my needs for my smallish boat.
Spruce Mica crew cab Limited? yum.

 

[1engineer]

I did that math. You know there are effectively two front main seals on the 1GR-FE, an actual seal and a fail-safe. Which is why we could limp to somewhere other than a highway rest stop. I am going to go out on a limb and say that this isn't a common design feature/side effect.

The depreciation math is interesting; a new Tundra retails (not msrp) for 6-7k more than a 1500, comparing bench seat models to bench seats. It's not a fair comparison, since the 1500 (and 3500) bench seat models are really stripped down. At the 5 year mark, in terms of percentage residual value you're right, but in terms of dollar loss it's a tie, or slightly in favor of the 1500.

The 3500 is another equation entirely - around here there is a big premium on 5 year old diesels.

Of course, there total cost of ownership, and there the Toyota wins handily. This is balanced against me desiring something that I can fix once in a while. It's sad, I know. I have been looking for just the right VW lemon to satisfy this instead.

In terms of tooling (as in investment in tools), the Toyota also wins, since I have a Techstream, and don't have the Chrysler computer stuff. And reading their tech manuals, they like to do a lot of software updates - like every service stop. Just like BMW. Don't like.



Simple: price. They retail in the high 40's, and one can get a Nissan Armada in the low 30's. One of the requirements is to be able to tow 9000 lbs minimum since we're looking to upgrade the travel trailer sometime during the vehicle life span, so in either Armada or Sequoia you're looking at something with leather seats - one look at what's left of my Maxima's interior tells me that seat covers or not, three-year-olds and leather seats don't mix.

Of course there is a big premium on five year old diesels - because five years ago they were produced under the old clean air standards and don't have any of the updated scrubbers or emissions. In five years there won't be nowhere near the premium there is today.

On depreciation look at actual price sold not book values. I like Dodges, but the only Dodge I will buy is going to be a Challenger SRT8 because I wanted one back in '70.

 

[phillyd2]

2013 Tundra 5.7 TRD Rock Warrior for the win! :rockon:

 

[tamerunner]

Of course there is a big premium on five year old diesels - because five years ago they were produced under the old clean air standards and don't have any of the updated scrubbers or emissions. In five years there won't be nowhere near the premium there is today.

On depreciation look at actual price sold not book values. I like Dodges, but the only Dodge I will buy is going to be a Challenger SRT8 because I wanted one back in '70.

I second all of this. My father and I drove 4 hrs to buy a 2003 F350 that we were pretty sure that we would have to put a motor in, just because its the 7.3. We had 2 of them already and this was the 3rd one in the stable.

And this is the only Dodge I would touch, but I would do more than touch it, thats for dang sure!!!

 

[terra4r]

Spruce Mica crew cab Limited? yum.

totally agree. hot color.

the premiums on the pre-emissions diesels is also a very good point from 1eng.

 

[Hellamatic]

Hold out for the 3rd gen 2014 Tundra - they're going to unveil it at the Chicago Auto Show on February 9

 

[homeyclaus]

Of course there is a big premium on five year old diesels - because five years ago they were produced under the old clean air standards and don't have any of the updated scrubbers or emissions. In five years there won't be nowhere near the premium there is today.

Possibly, but given the issues with the 5 year old diesels from the big three that's not justfied. I suppose some will pay a premium for a vehicle without an EGR valve too. Something about the American skepticism about environmental-anything, but in Euroland they have been running urea-injected/particulate accumulating systems for longer than 5 years, and, well, they don't suck. When that stuff came into small cars, first in the Peugeot 307, the German automakers divided by zero; you know, a diesel that does not smell like a diesel and all that.

On depreciation look at actual price sold not book values. I like Dodges, but the only Dodge I will buy is going to be a Challenger SRT8 because I wanted one back in '70.

I generally look at kbb trade-in values and check them against what things sell for on Autotrader and Craigslist. Where we live, two year old used cars retail for nearly as much as new ones. Where I came from, two year old cars are worth 60% of their purchase price. So weird.

I like the Challengers, both old and new. Back out west a few of my friends have older Barracudas.

 

[homeyclaus]

No 4Runner will tow as effortlessly as a full size pickup, but they do perform admirably and still meet my needs for my smallish boat.

I have had no issues towing with the 4Runner other than what's caused by a short wheelbase vehicle towing a 23' single axle travel trailer. But then, I have no problem revving the p*** out of my Toyotas and running them at 3000 rpm for 1500 miles.

Spruce Mica crew cab Limited? yum.

Need a bench seat so we can take 6 in a pinch. Also, Leather + 3-year-olds = misery.

2013 Tundra 5.7 TRD Rock Warrior for the win! :rockon:

They only come with bucket seats up front. And they don't come in Spruce Mica according to the order sheet I got to look at at the dealer.

totally agree. hot color.

the premiums on the pre-emissions diesels is also a very good point from 1eng.

True, it shows how misguided the market is.

Hold out for the 3rd gen 2014 Tundra - they're going to unveil it at the Chicago Auto Show on February 9

And in 2015 they'll make a Ford that won't go to limp mode randomly, and not tell their regional managers to tell their customers to pound sand?

 

[flyrv9]

I have a friend and coworker who had a 2009 Tundra 4WD crew cab with the 4.6 and then traded it for a 2013 Tundra 4WD TRD crew cab with the 5.7. He wanted the bigger engine and likes the TRD suspension much better. It, however, is a big truck and a pain to park. His mileage is about as expected and published. He doesn't do much off road; but has made several trips. I did notice the bed is pretty small - like about 4'. Not much room there.

 

[homeyclaus]

I have a friend and coworker who had a 2009 Tundra 4WD crew cab with the 4.6 and then traded it for a 2013 Tundra 4WD TRD crew cab with the 5.7. He wanted the bigger engine and likes the TRD suspension much better. It, however, is a big truck and a pain to park. His mileage is about as expected and published. He doesn't do much off road; but has made several trips. I did notice the bed is pretty small - like about 4'. Not much room there.

Thanks for the feedback. The bed is officially 5'8" like all the other crew cabs, which, with a cap on it, makes it a trunk. That can carry 1400 pounds.

I actually drove around in a 4.6L for an hour today, trying to figure out if I can deal with the bench seat. Now for the wife to see if she can. The 4.6 feels pretty darn punchy too, it seems plenty for the truck. And for its size it parks really well.

What do I really want? The A750 shift program they have in the Tundra, on the A750 in my 4Runner. A lot of complaints would go away.