Epic Fail

[brillo_76]

Hey Patrick



Did I read somewhere that you went with Moog LBJ's? I could be mistaken, often am. If you did, keep an eye on them. Some have reported very early failures with those. Don't count on them to last like the originals.

My 1998 Tetanus 1 runs moog lower ball joints and front sway bar links.

We have videos showing us available how to test their ball joints for play. If people are super concerned about non oem ball joints, or oem ball joints all one has to do is check them every oil change for play. Once play starts, replace them immediately. If one really looks into the issue. It's a front end design flaw.

So what do you think could happen to ball joints when folks put way oversized tires, larger rims and spacers and lifts along into this flawed system? Wouldnt this make the ball joints fail faster and come apart so much easier then if left with stock rims and tire sizes.

My rule of them is to check my front end every oil change for play.

By 200k at least the lower ball joints should be changed once or twice ( better if they were changed around 100k) by 200k. The upper ball joint should have also been changed and a lot of people change both upper and lowers together.

If you have 300k plus on your rig. You better make darn sure both upper and lower have been changed as the failure rate gets a lot higher if originals are still in place.


For example: My brothers honda accord snapped the original oem ball joint at 325k as ball joints only last so long.


Just like every 8 to 10 years, it's best to have a new denso radiator replaced to prevent milk shaking from occurring [ if ATM].

Some folks even place external atm coolers in series or remove the use of the radiator atm cooler all together.

Folks can always do as they wish, it's their rig. This is only my opinion on the balljoint and radiator issues.







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[denlion81]

OMG, that looks horrible... I am glad everyone is safe and nothing bad happened. Is there any tips to prevent same hapenning again? What would you suggest to watch/check for wear/tear to prevent the same?

 

[lockedlex]

There are no tests, these will just snap on your w/o notice. Like others have said, the Lower Ball Joints should be replaced preventatively every 100k miles or so.

I replaced mine around 190k miles (still original and no issues ever), but it's not something I should have waited that long to do!

The crazy part is I can do each side in about 15 minutes, it's NOT that much time or effort or cost. Just get OEM parts only!!

 

[PatrickStapler]

I would do what most everyone here recommends. Inspect them every 100K miles. If any play or deterioration at all is detected, replace them all.

 

[Kanoe]

I would do what most everyone here recommends. Inspect them every 100K miles. If any play or deterioration at all is detected, replace them all.

No one here recommends 100k mile inspections! We recommend inspecting frequently and replacing with OEM every 100k miles. Moogs have been reported to fail at under 50k miles so you might want to keep an eye on them. They won’t last like the originals.

 

[Brian.]

I would do what most everyone here recommends. Inspect them every 100K miles. If any play or deterioration at all is detected, replace them all.

I don't believe they Can be "checked" thanks to the same design that causes them to fail/separate rather than just get loose.

 

[denlion81]

Moogs have been reported to fail at under 50k miles so you might want to keep an eye on them. They won’t last like the originals.

Shoot, that is definitely good to know! Thanks! Since I am new into the T4R world I have installed new Moogs before I could put my rig back on the road. I guess I have to watch it for the next 50k miles (let's say about 100k km, right?)

 

[denlion81]

I don't believe they Can be "checked" thanks to the same design that causes them to fail/separate rather than just get loose.

So many things I didn't know before was going to buy my T4R. Not sure it would prevent me from that anyway... lol :lookout:

 

[Bad Luck]

How to inspect ball joints: Proper Lower Ball Joint Inspection & Testing Procedure

Keep in mind you are looking for play in the ball joint in the thousandths of an inch. Not much. Definitely not enough to detect with the naked eye.

 

[denlion81]

How to inspect ball joints: Proper Lower Ball Joint Inspection & Testing Procedure

Keep in mind you are looking for play in the ball joint in the thousandths of an inch. Not much. Definitely not enough to detect with the naked eye.

Thanks a lot!

 

[PatrickStapler]

No one here recommends 100k mile inspections! We recommend inspecting frequently and replacing with OEM every 100k miles. Moogs have been reported to fail at under 50k miles so you might want to keep an eye on them. They won’t last like the originals.

Ok! What he said then.

 

[Sarki]

So what changes were made to the OEM LBJ after the recall was issued?
I understand the originals that were recalled need to be replaced but wondering why the OEM Replacement LBJ should be replaced at 100K intervals.
Wasn’t the problem corrected?

 

[Bad Luck]

So what changes were made to the OEM LBJ after the recall was issued?
I understand the originals that were recalled need to be replaced but wondering why the OEM Replacement LBJ should be replaced at 100K intervals.
Wasn’t the problem corrected?

The problem will never be corrected because of how toyota oriented the lower ball joints.

 

[gamefreakgc]

Wow, lots of paranoia in here!

1. LBJ failure is rare on a stock height, stock sized tire 4Runner. In fact, most don't even replace them. I have a 356k and 240k mileage 4Runners, neither with any evidence or documentation of LBJ replacement. I don't qualify one part that rarely fails after 200K+ miles on a stock vehicle to be a major design flaw. Have you ever owned a Ford before? Or Chevy? Or Mini? Then you'll know what a problem really looks like. To continue this, Mini's have issues with rear axles that sag and over time do literally snap in half while driving and can lose both tires. That's a design flaw.

2. If you lift or put larger tires on any vehicle it puts more stress on the steering and drivetrain, that's just reality. Even more so if you off road frequently and you'll find yourself replacing the inner tie rods much more frequently than LBJ's. So if you put huge oversized tires on your 4Runner and lift it 3"+, don't be shocked when parts fail.

3. If you are going to "inspect" your LBJ's pay attention to the grease boot. If the boot is intact and full of grease you are good to go. It's only when the grease has leaked out (again, see point #2) then you should be concerned. If you just drive your 4Runner on paved roads and off-road infrequently don't lose sleep over it.

4. LBJ failure tends to happen most on slow, sharp turn. Like pulling out of a driveway or making a sharp right hand turn, for example. It's not going to explode going 70 MPH in a straightaway on the interstate.

 

[PatrickStapler]

Very valid points there. Thanks for posting. Regardless, I will be keeping a much closer eye on them now. Mine failed exactly as you describe, less than 40MPH on a smooth downtown road. I have never engaged the 4WD. I suspect the first owner may have since he owns a lot of hunting and farm land. Although I consider it a good vehicle at this point, I only bought it as a need at the moment and he gave me a very good deal...IMO.

 

[Sarki]

From what i’ve read by doing some google research, the problem with the LBJ on 01-02 4TR’s was a scratched surface on the ball portion of the assembly.
If that was the case I would think/hope the new LBJ installed as part of the recall campaign as a remedy to the problem would not have a scratched surface.
If this is the case It should not be necessary to replace the ball joints every 100K on Runners that had the “defective” joint replaced as part of the recall.
Just thinking out loud here as I have a pair of new OEM LBJ’s on my work bench waiting to install......wondering if it’s really necessary though.
I did check suspension and all appears tight and in order. I have documentation that both LBJ’s were replaced by prior owner under the recall.

 

[Brian.]

Wow, lots of paranoia in here!

1. LBJ failure is rare on a stock height, stock sized tire 4Runner. In fact, most don't even replace them. I have a 356k and 240k mileage 4Runners, neither with any evidence or documentation of LBJ replacement. I don't qualify one part that rarely fails after 200K+ miles on a stock vehicle to be a major design flaw. Have you ever owned a Ford before? Or Chevy? Or Mini? Then you'll know what a problem really looks like. To continue this, Mini's have issues with rear axles that sag and over time do literally snap in half while driving and can lose both tires. That's a design flaw.

2. If you lift or put larger tires on any vehicle it puts more stress on the steering and drivetrain, that's just reality. Even more so if you off road frequently and you'll find yourself replacing the inner tie rods much more frequently than LBJ's. So if you put huge oversized tires on your 4Runner and lift it 3"+, don't be shocked when parts fail.

3. If you are going to "inspect" your LBJ's pay attention to the grease boot. If the boot is intact and full of grease you are good to go. It's only when the grease has leaked out (again, see point #2) then you should be concerned. If you just drive your 4Runner on paved roads and off-road infrequently don't lose sleep over it.

4. LBJ failure tends to happen most on slow, sharp turn. Like pulling out of a driveway or making a sharp right hand turn, for example. It's not going to explode going 70 MPH in a straightaway on the interstate.

This all speaks more about your Risk Tolerance than anything else. It's a know, documented and recalled failure point. You don't get into recall status for "rare" occurrence.

I just replaced mine, 194k miles on a totally stock vehicle, driven by "grandma" (in her 70's now, none of the vehicles looked abused and this was a 1-owner truck).

It needed to be replaced. Yes, the boot was torn, but that wasn't obvious with everything assembled. The rusted nature was completely hidden.

For the cost of the parts, limited labor and potential for damage, it's like putting on a seatbelt. Nearly no cost, all reward. But hey, I know folks who don't wear those either.... fits right in with their personal level of risk tolerance and doesn't impact me in the least (well, it might as my dad is a no-seatbelt guy and his driving sucks now that he's pushing 80).

 

[Ripper238]

Lower Ball Joint! Makes much better sense then Lyndon B Johnson

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[brillo_76]

Wow, lots of paranoia in here!

1. LBJ failure is rare on a stock height, stock sized tire 4Runner. In fact, most don't even replace them. I have a 356k and 240k mileage 4Runners, neither with any evidence or documentation of LBJ replacement. I don't qualify one part that rarely fails after 200K+ miles on a stock vehicle to be a major design flaw. Have you ever owned a Ford before? Or Chevy? Or Mini? Then you'll know what a problem really looks like. To continue this, Mini's have issues with rear axles that sag and over time do literally snap in half while driving and can lose both tires. That's a design flaw.

2. If you lift or put larger tires on any vehicle it puts more stress on the steering and drivetrain, that's just reality. Even more so if you off road frequently and you'll find yourself replacing the inner tie rods much more frequently than LBJ's. So if you put huge oversized tires on your 4Runner and lift it 3"+, don't be shocked when parts fail.

3. If you are going to "inspect" your LBJ's pay attention to the grease boot. If the boot is intact and full of grease you are good to go. It's only when the grease has leaked out (again, see point #2) then you should be concerned. If you just drive your 4Runner on paved roads and off-road infrequently don't lose sleep over it.

4. LBJ failure tends to happen most on slow, sharp turn. Like pulling out of a driveway or making a sharp right hand turn, for example. It's not going to explode going 70 MPH in a straightaway on the interstate.

My point exactly. Great points. We can check them via procedures and my moogs have been on my my tentanus 1 for way over 50K miles. However, I run stock tires, rims and stock height.. Folks can check them every oil change if they wish. I am not detecting any play and just greased mine at the last oil change. All the boots area looked great no play and the steering still feels tight at 255K.