Fluid Choice, Illegal Warranty Denial and Magnuson–Moss Act

XswampX

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I went to an independent Toyota shop today to have all my primary fluids swapped (good synthetic stuff all around). Despite very low miles, I wanted to choose my lubricants, be conservative and have a known starting point for my maintenance (used vehicle, 8k miles).

After a ton of research, I chose Valvoline MaxLife synthetic ATF for both the transmission and power steering as it meets all applicable specifications. The shop said that if there are any problems with the transmission Toyota will void my warranty. I told them to go ahead with my fluid choice (I already had the Magnuson–Moss act in mind). Just to confirm my suspicion such a denial can only be lawfully done (despite this same statement in the Toyota manual) if Toyota can FIRST prove the fluid caused the problem. Otherwise, such a knee-jerk denial is indeed illegal. Some quick google-fu confirmed directly from a VP at Valvoline. Here is the link and quote.

Potential warranty problems: The language in some owner's manuals suggests that using an oil other than the one specified by the manufacturer will void the car's warranty. This is not the case, says Thom Smith, Valvoline's vice president of branded lubricant technology.

According to the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act, the onus would be on GM or another automaker to prove that a non-manufacturer oil damaged the engine. If dealers deny the warranty claim without first investigating it, they are in violation of the act, Smith says.

Consumers just need to make sure that any alternate oil they use is comparable in quality to the automaker's specified oil. Many oil manufacturers, including Valvoline, are so confident of their product that they offer their own warranty against engine damage that their products might be alleged to have caused.

If talk of voided warranties and engine damage makes you nervous, just use the manufacturer's specified oil for the duration of the warranty. Keep in mind that a vehicle's engine falls under the drivetrain warranty (also known as the powertrain warranty). In most cases, this is longer than the traditional bumper-to-bumper warranty.

Obviously in the case of any failure, Toyota would have to either have you tell them a factory "approved" lubricant was not used or attempt to prove the lubricant was not the factory one with some oil analysis...

I hope this gives others the needed peace of mind to intelligently make their own maintenance/fluids decisions.
 
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Whether your lubricant choices are better than OEM-recommended lubricants is splitting a pretty fine hair.

You and the M-M act may be right, and you may even prevail after a protracted argument over a warranty claim. But who the heck needs that potential hassle?

I trust Toyota enough to give them my money in exchange for a vehicle ... seems counterintuitive not to trust them to know which lubricants are good enough for them to warranty my drivetrain for a loooong time.

Curious as to what, exactly, you expect to gain?
 
^

Sure there may be some hair splitting here... However, I don't think there is any question that synthetic fluids are generally superior to non-synthetic. It isn't clear to me that Toyota's WS ATF, their generic Dexron PS fluid nor their LT Gear Oil are part, full or non-synthetic. I suspect mostly non-synthetic. What is not to gain in this regard?

The attitude that Toyota always knows best is a bit naive at best. Do you not think that they are HEAVILY driven by cost and in many instances cost over quality? When designing a vehicle they "stress-out" over pennies (I've worked with OEM automotive engineers in my professional capacity). There are plenty of pennies involved in thousands of gallons of fluids both at the factory and during factory paid maintenance. Some recent Toyota fluid choices also seem to be driven by efficiency (mpg, fleet average). I see a reasonable chance that this may be partially in conflict with durability. Also, it seems that the large fluid "stores" at many dealers may not even meet official Toyota specs! I'm certainly not saying that Toyota specs crap, it's just that there are always strongly competing factors in play.

I certainly don't expect any major failures and also would not expect a protracted hassle should one occur, with or without "playing the M-M card".

Last but not least, we all love our trucks, we obsess over them (many of us here at least :wink2:), use them hard and yet baby them. We want them to last us a very long time. Isn't the peace of mind in taking control of the entire choice of and change interval for lubricants worth the peace of mind itself? It is for me and figured many others here would feel the same and benefit from the key quote I shared.

Let's not also go down the lifetime fluids recommendations from Toyota and other OEMs...
 
^

Sure there may be some hair splitting here... However, I don't think there is any question that synthetic fluids are generally superior to non-synthetic. It isn't clear to me that Toyota's WS ATF, their generic Dexron PS fluid nor their LT Gear Oil are part, full or non-synthetic. I suspect mostly non-synthetic. What is not to gain in this regard?

The attitude that Toyota always knows best is a bit naive at best. Do you not think that they are HEAVILY driven by cost and in many instances cost over quality? When designing a vehicle they "stress-out" over pennies (I've worked with OEM automotive engineers in my professional capacity). There are plenty of pennies involved in thousands of gallons of fluids both at the factory and during factory paid maintenance. Some recent Toyota fluid choices also seem to be driven by efficiency (mpg, fleet average). I see a reasonable chance that this may be partially in conflict with durability. Also, it seems that the large fluid "stores" at many dealers may not even meet official Toyota specs! I'm certainly not saying that Toyota specs crap, it's just that there are always strongly competing factors in play.

I certainly don't expect any major failures and also would not expect a protracted hassle should one occur, with or without "playing the M-M card".

Last but not least, we all love our trucks, we obsess over them (many of us here at least :wink2:), use them hard and yet baby them. We want them to last us a very long time. Isn't the peace of mind in taking control of the entire choice of and change interval for lubricants worth the peace of mind itself? It is for me and figured many others here would feel the same and benefit from the key quote I shared.

Let's not also go down the lifetime fluids recommendations from Toyota and other OEMs...

I trust a Toyota engineer over some guy who thinks he knows better any day.

Not worth the legal trouble for me. I do wish you the best of luck.

Toyotas on oem fluids have gone 1 million miles.

Sometimes the fight to "be right" just isn't worth it.

You'll "win" in the long run, but it won't stop them from denying a warranty claim, dragging things out, you hiring a lawyer and taking them through a legal battle. Sort of like getting a divorce, in the end, you lose either way.
 
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Not looking for an argument :yo:. Just trying to be helpful in case Toyota pulls crap with anyone. Dealers do so regularly!

I trust a Toyota engineer over some guy who thinks he knows better any day.

You do realize that engineers are not wholly responsible for the fluids in your vehicle. Bean counters and lawyers are HEAVILY involved.

Toyotas on oem fluids have gone 1 million miles.

And orphans have gone on to be very successful in life. I'd like to provide every bit of insurance possible to protect my investment, be it my kids or just my truck...

Not worth the legal trouble for me. I do wish you the best of luck.

Sometimes the fight to "be right" just isn't worth it.

You'll "win" in the long run, but it won't stop them from denying a warranty claim, dragging things out, you hiring a lawyer and taking them through a legal battle. Sort of like getting a divorce, in the end, you lose either way.

Obviously to each their own. It is so highly unlikely this would happen... It was obviously worth it to me.
 
Not looking for an argument :yo:. Just trying to be helpful in case Toyota pulls crap with anyone. Dealers do so regularly!



You do realize that engineers are not wholly responsible for the fluids in your vehicle. Bean counters and lawyers are HEAVILY involved.



And orphans have gone on to be very successful in life. I'd like to provide every bit of insurance possible to protect my investment, be it my kids or just my truck...



Obviously to each their own. It is so highly unlikely this would happen... It was obviously worth it to me.
No problem, just had family members deal with this before. In spec fluids, warranty denial and then a legal bill the cost of the vehicle. Just wanted others to be aware of this avenue as well. In the end, they won, but at the cost of a vehicle. The real winners are the lawyers.

Sort of like winning an argument with the old lady. Yeah you won, but stock up on lotion and tissue, you're going to be self service for awhile.
 
No problem, just had family members deal with this before. In spec fluids, warranty denial and then a legal bill the cost of the vehicle. Just wanted others to be aware of this avenue as well. In the end, they won, but at the cost of a vehicle. The real winners are the lawyers.

It sounds like worth elaborating.
 
I'm not an attorney nor am I an M-M expert(would need to be an attorney), but I've read enough of it to realize that a dealer can simply claim "your equivalent" damaged the vehicle. He is after all a car dealer who runs a large service facility. You are Joe-Blow citizen employed at xxxx company as a yyyy.

You are not the automotive expert in this case; the dealer is, and unless you have expert engineering analysis in your corner, you have a prayer in hell of beating the dealer and/or the vehicles mfg.

Run OE/OEM fluids/etc. until your power train warranty is up. After that, you can experiment with all of the after-market products you like.
 
I'm not an attorney nor am I an M-M expert(would need to be an attorney), but I've read enough of it to realize that a dealer can simply claim "your equivalent" damaged the vehicle. He is after all a car dealer who runs a large service facility. You are Joe-Blow citizen employed at xxxx company as a yyyy.

And said dealer could make a lot of parts/labor profit by just going ahead with a repair which Toyota Motor Corporation would be on the hook for paying (not the dealer). Although dealers certainly like to "knee-jerk" such decisions it seems that is not always in their best interest.

You are not the automotive expert in this case; the dealer is, and unless you have expert engineering analysis in your corner, you have a prayer in hell of beating the dealer and/or the vehicles mfg.

Run OE/OEM fluids/etc. until your power train warranty is up. After that, you can experiment with all of the after-market products you like.

I strongly suspect I know more about tribology than any dealer staff. That is not where the expertise resides in the larger TMC+dealer organization. I have worked as a Professional Mechanical Engineer (that being said, no specific specialty in tribology).

It may be a fight most don't want to engage in but if on top of proving you have used a fluid that meets OEM specification and you bring up M-M and those two combined don't work, the common sense approach (good for both parties) of avoiding litigation could be the thing that could help turn the tide.

Like I said - to each their own. Your choice/advise is clear but it's not a one size fits all.
 
I strongly suspect I know more about tribology than any dealer staff. That is not where the expertise resides in the larger TMC+dealer organization. I have worked as a Professional Mechanical Engineer (that being said, no specific specialty in tribology).

Your ME background could be a plus.

Hopefully your legal team is better than the dealers/TMC.
 
Why would you event worry about changing your ATF on a 2016 with 8k miles? It's got World Standard from the factory and has no service interval last I checked. The only time we replaced WS fluid at Lexus was if the transmission was acting up. I've seen cars with over 200k miles and no issues and never had the fluid replaced. If you're really worried about it just use Toyota WS ATF since you'll probably never replace it again.

Edit: Also, since you're in SD, which "Independent Toyota Shop"?
 
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And said dealer could make a lot of parts/labor profit by just going ahead with a repair which Toyota Motor Corporation would be on the hook for paying (not the dealer). Although dealers certainly like to "knee-jerk" such decisions it seems that is not always in their best interest.



I strongly suspect I know more about tribology than any dealer staff. That is not where the expertise resides in the larger TMC+dealer organization. I have worked as a Professional Mechanical Engineer (that being said, no specific specialty in tribology).

It may be a fight most don't want to engage in but if on top of proving you have used a fluid that meets OEM specification and you bring up M-M and those two combined don't work, the common sense approach (good for both parties) of avoiding litigation could be the thing that could help turn the tide.

Like I said - to each their own. Your choice/advise is clear but it's not a one size fits all.

While the dealer staff may not know more about engineering than you do, all they have to do is pour the right fluid that the engineer that knows far more than you do tells them to. Every fluid change does not require a re-engineering effort to accomplish.
 
You know, years ago when I worked at an Oreilly Auto Parts store we had a commercial accounts division. Our biggest customers were the dealerships. They bought all types of fluids from us. What they used them for I don't know, but they kept a pretty good stock on hand.
 
This is a bogus argument. Automotive fluids are manufactured to meet a specification and virtually every fluid available for sale meets the applicable specification. Assuming that the proper grade and spec fluid was used, if Toyota denied a warranty claim because "x" fluid was used instead of 'y", the manufacturer of "x" would file suit against Toyota before the sun went down.
 
No, if you used fluids that meet the spec you will not have any issues with warranty

The problem is you can't independently verify that it does meet said spec. Valvoline says it does, yet Toyota does not provide a method to verify that. No one has a true break-down of what WS ATF is.

Additionally Maxlife does not completely meet all WAS ATF requirements because they state it's not suitable for hybrid use, despite WS ATF being the spec for hybrid vehicles (the only other new transmission fluid we use is a special one for some of the CVTs); wonder what that is about, because if it's truly compatible with WS ATF then it shouldn't matter if it's a hybrid or not? Additionally it states it's suitable for Toyota T-IV, which Toyota states is NOT compatible with WS ATF and any cross contamination requires complete flushing of the transmission system and lines to eliminate fluid (at least their earlier TSBs/Product documentation stated this)

Valvoline circumvents this by offering a warranty on the fluid and saying that if you can prove fluid caused failure they will warranty the transmission.

This is a bogus argument. Automotive fluids are manufactured to meet a specification and virtually every fluid available for sale meets the applicable specification. Assuming that the proper grade and spec fluid was used, if Toyota denied a warranty claim because "x" fluid was used instead of 'y", the manufacturer of "x" would file suit against Toyota before the sun went down.

As stated above, need to know what you're comparing to prove that. Zerex Asian Formula Coolant for example (made by valvoline) is very easy to prove it does meet Toyota's SLLC spec because you can match up the ingredients (or lack there of) and see the fluid is near identical; granted there may be an additive package or two that aren't listed, but the similarities are nearly 1:1 and thus while not a factory approved fluid alternative it'd be obvious it's not much different. WS ATF, not so much. There's a bunch of scattered data with no context as to formulation, base stock, actual fluid base technology, ect.

I would imagine it'd be a very frustrating fight since all you can say is "Valvoline says it meets the spec" and Toyota will say, "they say that, but we have not verified it and have not approved their fluid as a suitable replacement, therefore it is not a factory approved fluid." At which point you'd have to fine significant documentation proving that the fluid is chemically similar to WS ATF; which no one seems to have out there for us to find. So if you do end up finding out what the secret sauce that is WS ATF is made of, please let us know. :)

From my personal opinion and based on the research and searching I've tried to do to find out what WS ATF actually is. I would not recommend anything other than WS ATF because even if the bottle says it's compatible (which doesn't really mean much to be honest, the reality is that it's probably not compatible), you have no way of verifying that it is in fact similar to WS ATF since you do not have a starting to point to compare it. This just seems silly to me that people think they cheap out on a very important fluid with no real way to actually verify the claim beyond empirical data. That'd be like someone saying "just run whatever engine oil you want in your engine, me and my buddy haven't any issues in our engines so it's totally okay; after all engine oil is just engine oil!"

Post Note-

Just to be clear, I am saying in my personal opinion that you'd have a tough fight trying to prove that a non-Toyota licensed/approved specialized fluid meets the specification because:

a.) You do not have the actual specification for WS ATF to compare it to the supposed alternative
b.) The listed product contradicts itself and standards established by Toyota for WS ATF; which brings suspicion and a ambiguity to their claim.
c.) There's not enough actual scientific data to prove their claim from your consumer standpoint without either having access to Toyota's proprietary information and/or both Valvoline's Proprietary information

Also that I'm all for using alternative/better fluids IF you can scientifically prove that they meet or exceed a given specification, NOT because Bubba-John ran Maxlife or AutoZone's Super-Awesome Universal Coolant of the Week for 50k and their engine didn't blow up (that is empirical evidence and is good for only cursory reference/establishing a context for a cursory examination)
 
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The problem is you can't independently verify that it does meet said spec. Valvoline says it does, yet Toyota does not provide a method to verify that. No one has a true break-down of what WS ATF is.

Additionally Maxlife does not completely meet all WAS ATF requirements because they state it's not suitable for hybrid use, despite WS ATF being the spec for hybrid vehicles (the only other new transmission fluid we use is a special one for some of the CVTs); wonder what that is about, because if it's truly compatible with WS ATF then it shouldn't matter if it's a hybrid or not? Additionally it states it's suitable for Toyota T-IV, which Toyota states is NOT compatible with WS ATF and any cross contamination requires complete flushing of the transmission system and lines to eliminate fluid (at least their earlier TSBs/Product documentation stated this)

Valvoline circumvents this by offering a warranty on the fluid and saying that if you can prove fluid caused failure they will warranty the transmission.

I agree with the theory of everything you said and I don't like "all purpose" this and that but I have never heard of a case where a car manufacture denied a warranty because an non OEM fluid was used. if you put ATF fluid in the Engine....sure, if you used 0w-40 , maybe but because you used Mobil 0w-20 Engine oil.....I would be shocked

I don't think encouraging people to use $2.5/qt oil from behind John's barn is a good idea but I don't think encouraging only use Toyota Fluids to maintain a warranty makes any more sense. (not saying you are doing either, but this thread is headed that way)
 
I agree with the theory of everything you said and I don't like "all purpose" this and that but I have never heard of a case where a car manufacture denied a warranty because an non OEM fluid was used. if you put ATF fluid in the Engine....sure, if you used 0w-40 , maybe but because you used Mobil 0w-20 Engine oil.....I would be shocked

I don't think encouraging people to use $2.5/qt oil from behind John's barn is a good idea but I don't think encouraging only use Toyota Fluids to maintain a warranty makes any more sense. (not saying you are doing either, but this thread is headed that way)

VW denied warranty of many engines in the past because owners did not use the specified oil (VW oils are specified not by weight, but by a VW specific code such as "504 00" based on internal requirements for oil performance), people erroneously thought "any 5w-40 or 5w-30" oil should be good enough; they failed to realize that a VW specific oil is engineered specifically for the engine with additive packages and chemical make-ups that are different between spec. A 504 00 oil and a 507 00 might both be a 5w-30 or 5w-40 on the bottle (VW has a 20+ page TSB that shows all current manufacturers of oil, their offerings, and what spec they meet; many of which range between 0w-30 to 5w-40 for the same spec but made by different manufacturers), but run a 507 00 (diesel oil) in a 504 00 (typical gasoline) car and you have issues, or vice versa.

VW got sued a while back because in North America for a while there was a specific VW spec (I forget which, I really need to find the specific case as it was an interesting read/outcome) that was only available from the dealer. People went the cheap route, ruined their engine and got mad when VW said "you used the wrong oil (they tested the oil, which from the few Mercedes and VW guys I have talked to is actually very common practice in engine failure warranty cases), you don't get warranty" they won the lawsuit because their excuse of "it's not our fault only one manufacturer, who happens to supply VW brand oil, is the only suitable oil that meets the spec in North America". Conversely Mercedes tried to pull the same thing and when investigated it was found most dealers didn't even know what they were putting in their vehicle (M229.3 vs. M229.31, ect.) and they lost because they themselves were not using the correct oil sometimes.

That's why GM says you need to use "Dexos" oil now in their engines, they learned from VW on that one (granted in reality Dexos is more of a marketing gimmick and almost all non-factory oils are easily Dexos oils). Toyota is one of the few who are very liberal on their oil spec, as long as it meets SAE Viscosity and API index ratings it's good to go, you'll probably never have warranty denied if you used say whatever 0w-20 oil you could find because it will easily meet the SAE and API ratings Toyota specifies; unlike some manufacturer's who are more militant.

Conversely you would have your warranty potentially denied if you used a non-Toyota approved coolant (considering out of my own personal experience Zerex Asian is the only one that matches up with SLLC, it's easy to do and often done by people) though realistically, the damage to your engine would become significant far out of the warranty period anyways; cavitation, metallurgical reactions, electrolysis ect. But Toyota could say, "you used a non-factory approved fluid that contributed to the damage your engine, Toyota is not liable for the damage because you used a fluid that does not meet the specifications." A lot of those "Universal" coolants say they meet a lot of specs, but often contradict themselves (i.e. I've seen one Autozone special that said it was good for both Dexcool AND SLLC, which is complete BS, but the bottle said it was compatible with modern Toyotas).

My point is, that while no in a Toyota you wouldn't get your engine warranty denied because you used Mobil 1 0w-20 vs. Genuine Toyota 0w-20 (which honestly I think is made by Mobil 1?), but you could have it denied in another brand and it has been done before (by the way, Mobil 1 5w-40 is okay for Mercedes engines as it meets their specifications for M229.3, but it does not meet VW's or BMW's specifications; that requires Mobil 1 "European Formula", I had to reiterate this constantly at my old dealership when doing used vehicles) because people would mistake the SAE rating to equate to oil specification, when in reality in some brands it's far more complicated than that.

Post Note-

This is mainly why I am saying that if you are going to use a non-factory approved fluid (i.e. any fluid that Toyota has not officially approved or licensed for use in it's vehicles) you better be sure it matches the specs the vehicle requires; not just blindly believe whatever BS they may say on the bottle. Because IF it ever came down to a warranty issue where they decided to deny it based on the use of an aftermarket fluid; you'd have to prove that the fluid meets the spec, and I doubt corporate lawyers are gonna let "the bottle says so" slide in court without serious evidence to prove it really is the same fluid.

Though I'll be honest, in my experience as a technician I haven't seen warranty be denied because the wrong fluid was used (then again, I haven't seen much non-factory fluid in vehicles still under warranty and even less fluid related failure; so we're all talking about a rather unlikely scenario here).
 
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Though I'll be honest, in my experience as a technician I haven't seen warranty be denied because the wrong fluid was used (then again, I haven't seen much non-factory fluid in vehicles still under warranty and even less fluid related failure; so we're all talking about a rather unlikely scenario here).

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