Front driver lean

Wow thanks again for all the responses and I think my original question was pretty simple and went off track a little.

I was going to purchase and install Toytech 1/4" spacer front driver side coil to help front lean.

1. Will this work to help and does it affect or lift the front passenger side at all (I know this happened with the rear Daystar install) ?

2. Will I need a wheel alignment after spacer install ?

3. Is this even possible as I read somewhere that you should not install a spacer on top of the Bilstein which I currently have set at 1.75" front lift ?

thanks and I will also check out options for possible new front coils too.

Are you sure that you put the springs back on the right side when you installed the 5100's? Toyota springs have driver vs. passenger side that even out the lean. I didn't have lean on stock suspension, didn't have lean on FJ springs on 5100s at 1.75 (again, drivers side had an extra coil), then DID have lean on OME 885's on 5100's because the springs were identical left to right. Fixed the lean with a .25" spacer on the driver side top hat. You won't need extended studs for just a .25", you'll just waste money and time cranking the nut down all those extra threads (ask me how I know.) A .25" spacer on top of the 5100's is fine. You'll want an alignment after any suspension geometry change as mentioned.
 
I have proposed solutions. My "zero research" and statements posted thus far are based off basic observations in traffic and direct mechanical experience. I have yet to see this lean that appears to occur everywhere except the Northeast. There are three 4th gens in my neighborhood....all absent of lean. All of them are raked, with the exception of mine, and I think we all agree on rake so we're done there.

I take forum posts with a huge grain of salt. Once people start to latch on to an idea, it runs away more often than not. I couldn't begin to tell you the variety of motorcycles out there have a "bad second gear design from the factory" or how many "faulty AWD systems" exist.

It's not like I'm posting for my own amusement. I've made observations that contradict how common this topic seems to be and posted my thoughts as well as suggestions. Again, I get it. We've gotten very comfortable with spacing shocks over the last 10years and anything that goes against that mindset MUST be wrong.

Fair or not, my experience causes me to have my doubts that 160lbs justified to one side of a vehicle that is sprung for 5000lbs or more is going to result in a permanent and significant sag of 3/4" or more. There is something else going on there.




This is the first I've seen on this topic in the ~4 years I've been here. The suspensions I've installed have been across numerous makes and models, both lifts and drops, spanning across several years. Zero of my installs have resulted in ride height issues.
Chalk it up as "ridiculously lucky" I suppose because me telling the forum "I might be good at this" won't go over well.
:heh:



I'll repeat something that was obviously missed the first time:
Adjusting ride height on coilovers is a completely different ball game than spacing the location of a shock. The two adjustments cannot reasonably be compared since coilovers are desgined for changing ride height without moving the position of the shock.



In closing, I won't be responding to anything else in this thread since a few seem to be upset. Please know my only intent was to offer some perspective on why spacing shocks isn't the greatest idea and why it should be avoided.

Carry on....

Just a few thoughts, since you won't be responding any further:

All you've suggested thus far is that people have either installed their suspensions incorrectly, or that they have something wrong with their vehicle that should be further investigated. If you have any real solutions aside from a generic "there must be something wrong, check your setup," I'd love to hear them. You must have something to recommend, since you seem to be so much better at installing lifts than everyone who experiences this issue...

How can you claim to have any experience with this issue if, as you have stated: "This is the first I've seen on this topic in the ~4 years I've been here."

I'm located in the northeast, and I have the "lean," so it does exist here. If you have 3 lifted 4th gens in your neighborhood, I'd be interested in seeing the measurements you took to verify that there is no "lean."

I agree with you that this is not something that should be an issue with any lift on any make and model if properly installed with no other underlying issues, but it does seem to be common among properly lifted 4th gens, whether you experience it or not. Toyota obviously has tried to correct the problem on stock vehicles, since the driver's side stock Toyota springs are longer than the passenger side springs.

And FWIW, I agree it is not a good idea to change spring position on only one side with a top-plate spacer. However, if you add a preload spacer to a spring, such as people do with the rear daystar spacers or the 10 mm front OME trim packers to correct the "lean," it is exactly the same as cranking up a coilover. Shock positions remain exactly the same, you are effectively increasing preload on the spring.
 
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Are you sure that you put the springs back on the right side when you installed the 5100's? Toyota springs have driver vs. passenger side that even out the lean. I didn't have lean on stock suspension, didn't have lean on FJ springs on 5100s at 1.75 (again, drivers side had an extra coil), then DID have lean on OME 885's on 5100's because the springs were identical left to right. Fixed the lean with a .25" spacer on the driver side top hat. You won't need extended studs for just a .25", you'll just waste money and time cranking the nut down all those extra threads (ask me how I know.) A .25" spacer on top of the 5100's is fine. You'll want an alignment after any suspension geometry change as mentioned.

Thanks for all the responses. Yes springs went back in the same position they were removed. I had driver side lean even with the old stock shocks--about 1" in the rear. After the Daystar rear spacer it varies around 1/4-1/2" now, not really noticeable to me. Before it was very noticeable.

Will probably try the 1/4" spacer front driver side when new tires are on order. thanks.
 
I have proposed solutions. My "zero research" and statements posted thus far are based off basic observations in traffic and direct mechanical experience. I have yet to see this lean that appears to occur everywhere except the Northeast. There are three 4th gens in my neighborhood....all absent of lean. All of them are raked, with the exception of mine, and I think we all agree on rake so we're done there.

I take forum posts with a huge grain of salt. Once people start to latch on to an idea, it runs away more often than not. I couldn't begin to tell you the variety of motorcycles out there have a "bad second gear design from the factory" or how many "faulty AWD systems" exist.

It's not like I'm posting for my own amusement. I've made observations that contradict how common this topic seems to be and posted my thoughts as well as suggestions. Again, I get it. We've gotten very comfortable with spacing shocks over the last 10years and anything that goes against that mindset MUST be wrong.

Fair or not, my experience causes me to have my doubts that 160lbs justified to one side of a vehicle that is sprung for 5000lbs or more is going to result in a permanent and significant sag of 3/4" or more. There is something else going on there.

This is the first I've seen on this topic in the ~4 years I've been here. The suspensions I've installed have been across numerous makes and models, both lifts and drops, spanning across several years. Zero of my installs have resulted in ride height issues.
Chalk it up as "ridiculously lucky" I suppose because me telling the forum "I might be good at this" won't go over well.
:heh:

I'll repeat something that was obviously missed the first time:
Adjusting ride height on coilovers is a completely different ball game than spacing the location of a shock. The two adjustments cannot reasonably be compared since coilovers are desgined for changing ride height without moving the position of the shock.

In closing, I won't be responding to anything else in this thread since a few seem to be upset. Please know my only intent was to offer some perspective on why spacing shocks isn't the greatest idea and why it should be avoided.

Carry on....

[MENTION=77155]bergs[/MENTION],

It seems to me that you are the one that is upset. I'm not exactly sure why due to the fact that you claim you "take forum posts with a huge grain of salt". There seems to be a large percentage of us 4th gen owners that have had the "lean" issue with our rigs. To read your description of it, you seem to believe that the installation of our lifts is where the problem therein lies. Thus, you simply negate the views of all the T4R.org 4th gen owners who have reported and discussed this issue ad-nauseum. The purpose of this forum is to discuss all aspects of our trucks, including problems and solutions. In this thread alone, I count 7 people reporting this same problem. Coincidence?

During your 4 years of your membership here on T4R.org, this is the first that you have heard of this issue? That tells me (in addition to your minimal 349 posts) that you may not have been very prolific on this site to begin with. I have been here almost three years and have seen this topic come up over and over again. I have helped 4 or 5 members resolve their lean issue via PM and/or telephone over this last year alone. While the "lean" issue is not a major crisis, I am happy for you, that you have not encountered it.

I'm not trying to belittle or attack you. I'm just saying that maybe you should give some of us the benefit of the doubt. Or, I suppose us dumb, ole' ignant hicks, that cannot competently install a lift kit, will just have to dole through life making the best of our self inflicted "leans".
 
A small point

Not ultimate - but I do have the boss 2.5 series - so I'm not sure if this applies directly, but I'll add my 2 cents anyhow.

SAS articulates much differently than IFS.
The body of the truck follows more tightly the pitch of the front (...axle) than the back. (for example try this yourself: Take your swaybars off, and park one of your front tires on a curb and record your body roll. Do then do the same with the rear in the same spot. You should notice less body roll with the rear parked on the same curb. Some of this is a consequence of differing spring rates, some of this is a consequence of the differing load transfer characteristics of IFS vs. SAS).

Analyzing the load transfer dynamics of a vehicle can give you some insight into the consequences that having IFS in the front and SAS in the rear might have on the lean of the body compared to the articulation of a suspension. There is a virtual fulcrum of lateral load transfer (which is an imaginary point you can define for components in the suspension - but has typically a variable / hazy field of points when all factors contributing to dynamic load transfer for body / chassis are combined, unless every part perfectly resists deflection (in this case we might call it a roll axis)), which although I haven't actually done or seen the math for our trucks - I believe to intersect the cG nearer the front of our vehicles. More to the point - the roll center of the suspension is much nearer the ground on our IFS front, whereas it is directly above the pumpkin on the solid axle rear. A higher roll center in the rear means a more anterior intersection of the vehicle center with the roll axis. The net effect of all contributors is a higher roll stiffness in the front - and the body follows the articulation of the front suspension more than that of the rear.

Short version for our trucks: if you have some side to side lean in the front - it will likely translate to increased side to side suspension articulation in the rear (which will appear as a wider side to side gap difference between the tire and fender on the passengers side's rear than the front. (ie: 1" in the front may look like 2" in the back)

((((This is not always true however, as there are many variables which contribute to the output. It is fairly safe to say that a small sample size with many different combinations of variables could exhibit different outcomes that minimize the generalizability of the effect. It is also fair to say that this is a well documented, well described and certainly mathematically supported consequence that many forum members suffer from. Manufacturers are aware of this (as is Toyota most certainly) which is why some suspension kits have slightly different (taller / stiffer) springs for for the drivers side. The shocks themselves are identical, and don't need to be any different (though I will get into this in a bit below.... again unsurprisingly - you can invent a scenario why this might not be true and contribute to a functional consequence, but then we are just being pedantic... it is not a completely different ballgame). Adding: swaybars, variable spring rates, variable shock damping, X-Reas, and weight redistribution techniques allow us to adjust for the disparity and correct the result.))))

***** In answer to your question, crank up the front coilover until the gap between the tire on each side to the fender is the same. You will diminish the lean in the rear. This will improve further if you have a strong and functional swaybar, or rake the front of your vehicle. @%1;'s understanding here is supported as he said that all of the vehicles in his experience (save his own) are raked.

Raking the front will tend to diminish the rear side to side difference (because this moves the intersect of the roll axis forward with the vehicle center (where the vehicle center is the functional center of the most ant/post/lat mounting interfaces with the chassis), while leveling will tend to increase it (again because this moves the intersect of vehicle center and roll axis closer to the rear, ie: closer to the lateral disparity).

***** The few pounds of lateral disparity in weight distribution + driver weight, is actually a valid (and potentially significant) consideration here. If it is true when put onto a scale that there are 160 pounds more on the driver's side tires than than on the passenger side (as measured by scales under each wheel), then everything else being equal, the springs on that side are being compressed 1/2" in total (ie: sum of compression in the front and back) more than on the other side (if the standard 4runner spring rate was 320pounds/inch). This will increase with driver weight (though to be fair, 200 pounds does not go onto the driver's side tires in this case - there is of course redistribution - which can be roughly calculated if you know the starting points).

Adding a spacer is a fine idea, however a perfect solution would be to redistribute weight. There are of course other considerations - ie: the cumulative effect of manufacturing tolerances, as well as the fact pointed out earlier by @%1; that the 4runner was designed as a right hand drive vehicle, which both will have some effect on the lean (ie: this isn't only always because of a 160lb lateral disparity).

Toyota engineering is very very crafty, and more than any manufacturer that I've experienced, employs the most elegant and simple solutions to problems like this. (I might put a little thread together at some point - a... Toyota engineering appreciation thread if you will...). As a right hand drive car (and as soon as I have a chance I'll examine this) I expect that Toyota built subtle side to side differences into several aspects of the chassis, and with the change to left hand drive, these variances accentuate rather than correct the effect of driver weight. This was likely not corrected for us obtuse minded north americans in the chassis, but rather in the more cost effective measures of taller stiffer springs on the driver's side.

The absolute best solution is to move the cG closer to mid-line. This will have the side effect of reducing actual weight transfer due to body roll.

If you were to approach this problem from that angle - and you weigh 200 pounds (supposing the lateral disparity is something like 160 pounds) - then 200 pounds needs to be added to the passenger seat, and 160 pounds distributed over the upper mounts of the passenger side front and rear suspension to bring the VFLLT to midline. Of course this isn't very practical for a number or reasons, which I'll let you imagine. A more elegant solution would be to remove or transfer existing weight from one side to the other, or at least closer to center.

I might add...
Putting a spacer above the shock again is not the completely different ballgame vs. adjusting a coil-over to ride higher or lower (unless you are hitting the bumpstops). It has zero functional impact on the shock.

The working part of a shock is a piston sitting in an oil bath. Little holes in the piston allow it to move through the oil at a particular rate. Increase the oil viscosity - piston moves slower. Decrease the size of the holes - piston moves slower. Moving the shock through its travel by any amount has absolutely no impact in shock performance (unless of course you have progressive gas absorbers with variable rebound - increasing the compression will take away some of your fast rebound). Having a floating piston with a compressed gas rebound - again - no difference (but you might need to decrease the pressure above the floating piston to get the same damping performance). I should say that on lower end shocks, putting a spacer above the spring/shock hat might increase the deflection of the shock as it moves through its travel, and might put more strain on the superior mount - however; this is already accommodated for in most designs with the use of either a heim join at the upper mount (and then likely the lower mount) in the expensive designs, and a rubber bushing or two on the inexpensive designs.

Putting a spacer above a shock... is the same as adjusting a coil-over (caveats to the above) - so long as the total travel of the swing-arm at the lower mounting point of the shock does not exceed the upper or lower limit of the shock's travel. Adding a spacer diminishes some of shock travel at full compression, but increases it at full extension (adjusting the coilover does the opposite). So long as you do not exceed the travel of the shock through the travel of the swing-arm, they are functionally identical suspension adjustments (again - caveats to the above). There is no such thing fortunately as the shocks [being] different lengths. When you put more weight on one side vs. the other - the travel sags into the heavier side more - so in that case, at rest the shocks are at different lengths in their travel comparatively. If you have driver's side lean, you should absolutely do something to correct this. Adding a spacer effectively evens them out - so that the frame mount to swingarm measurement is the same distance on both sides. The spring is just loaded a bit more on the heavy side.

TLDR - spacers are a valid solution - for an observed problem that has many variables. Spacers do not contribute anything unreasonable to a functional compromise in suspension performance (but read the above before you flame).

Best advice is to start by laterally leveling the front, and see where you are before ordering anything for the rear.
 
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