Going to need upper control arms

[honda250xtitan]

It has compacted underlayment, it's just the same color as our soil. Also, Wife doesn't photo doc things too well.
The carport was supposed to arrive Tuesday. It's still in transit. Not the end of the world.

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nice, theres always more to it then what photos show. but its fun to assume lol:loco:

 

[jdm-v35]

I got everything installed yesterday. They were only able to get it to 4.5 degrees as at 5 it whacked camber out. Maybe because I'm only at 2" of lift. It's pulling right a little bit which I knew (they told me and I test drove it) and it's livable, so took it anyway because I was there and they offered to have me bring it back whenever to get the alignment perfect. The shop owner is a friend of mine. Otherwise, it rides and drives well.

I'm wondering if I go back down closer to factory spec (3.3) it will make a difference in the right pull. Maybe 3.5-4 degrees with a little difference between the sides to make up for the crowned roads? Or, does it just need a finer tuned alignment.

tbh it sounds like they may not be knowledgeable about how to get the most out of toyotas. I was able to get 4.9 and 5.0 caster and everything else within the oem specs. tracks perfectly straight. more caster=straighter tracking. less caster=wandering to sides.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I got everything installed yesterday. They were only able to get it to 4.5 degrees as at 5 it whacked camber out. Maybe because I'm only at 2" of lift. It's pulling right a little bit which I knew (they told me and I test drove it) and it's livable, so took it anyway because I was there and they offered to have me bring it back whenever to get the alignment perfect. The shop owner is a friend of mine. Otherwise, it rides and drives well.

I'm wondering if I go back down closer to factory spec (3.3) it will make a difference in the right pull. Maybe 3.5-4 degrees with a little difference between the sides to make up for the crowned roads? Or, does it just need a finer tuned alignment.

Suspension mods and alignment numbers are always a case by case basis, even the advertised range is still something to take with a grain of salt in my experience. One guy will get 5° and another can only get 4.5°; just how it goes it seems.

That being said, I would have them inspect your lower control arm tabs, it's possible they are a little flattened out; even a little bit of bend/flattening of those tabs will rob you of adjustment. Usually it's the tab on the back of the front bushing mount that gets flattened out the most frequently. It wouldn't hurt to have them looked at and maybe even reinforced with some welds or a whole new tab kit like from Total Chaos if you plan on wheeling hard.

Additionally you probably don't need 4~5° of Caster if you're only running 285's/33" tires; the main reason most people go over 4° is to get the tire to clear the 2nd body mount at the firewall. I run about 6° to clear my 35's after doing a body mount chop on my 4th gen; but when I was running SPC UCA and 285's I put my caster at about 3.5~4° and called it a day.

I would shoot for something around 3.5 to 4° Caster with -0.5 to -1.0° Camber with maybe 0.02 to 0.04° additional Toe-In over factory specification for the best tracking and tire wear. The slight negative camber is to help offset Toyota's tendency to eat up the outer edges of tires and help "flatten" the wider tire; though you also have to take into account the type of tire you're running, the rim you have it mounted to, the tire pressure you're running, and the capability of your suspension to manage the extra unsprung weight. That being said, it's my rough guidelines I like to apply to most of the lifted Toyotas I see and is usually attainable if they have some decent UCAs.

 

[Pedro367]

Suspension mods and alignment numbers are always a case by case basis, even the advertised range is still something to take with a grain of salt in my experience. One guy will get 5° and another can only get 4.5°; just how it goes it seems.

That being said, I would have them inspect your lower control arm tabs, it's possible they are a little flattened out; even a little bit of bend/flattening of those tabs will rob you of adjustment. Usually it's the tab on the back of the front bushing mount that gets flattened out the most frequently. It wouldn't hurt to have them looked at and maybe even reinforced with some welds or a whole new tab kit like from Total Chaos if you plan on wheeling hard.

Additionally you probably don't need 4~5° of Caster if you're only running 285's/33" tires; the main reason most people go over 4° is to get the tire to clear the 2nd body mount at the firewall. I run about 6° to clear my 35's after doing a body mount chop on my 4th gen; but when I was running SPC UCA and 285's I put my caster at about 3.5~4° and called it a day.

I would shoot for something around 3.5 to 4° Caster with -0.5 to -1.0° Camber with maybe 0.02 to 0.04° additional Toe-In over factory specification for the best tracking and tire wear. The slight negative camber is to help offset Toyota's tendency to eat up the outer edges of tires and help "flatten" the wider tire; though you also have to take into account the type of tire you're running, the rim you have it mounted to, the tire pressure you're running, and the capability of your suspension to manage the extra unsprung weight. That being said, it's my rough guidelines I like to apply to most of the lifted Toyotas I see and is usually attainable if they have some decent UCAs.

Exactly the response I was looking for and you are correct. My tabs were flattened and they had a hard time aligning it thanks to the previous shop that did it. I am only still running 265s with no plans to go bigger anytime soon and no plans to do any really serious wheeling outside of getting off the beaten path occasionally. I've done enough rock crawling in my day with my previous jeeps to know what it does on a vehicle and I have zero intention of doing that with this 4R.

I'll bring it back and tell them to do the 3.5 degree range. The more I drive it today the more I disliked the "harder" steering as well that I'm seeing now comes with higher caster numbers. My guess is I'd be happy with 3.5. Aside from maybe a little highway wander, it drove and tracked beautifully at 3 degrees with just the 1" strut spacer before these coilovers and JBA UCAs, FWIW.

Really appreciate your insights. Thanks, man!

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Exactly the response I was looking for and you are correct. My tabs were flattened and they had a hard time aligning it thanks to the previous shop that did it. I am only still running 265s with no plans to go bigger anytime soon and no plans to do any really serious wheeling outside of getting off the beaten path occasionally. I've done enough rock crawling in my day with my previous jeeps to know what it does on a vehicle and I have zero intention of doing that with this 4R.

I'll bring it back and tell them to do the 3.5 degree range. The more I drive it today the more I disliked the "harder" steering as well that I'm seeing now comes with higher caster numbers. My guess is I'd be happy with 3.5. Aside from maybe a little highway wander, it drove and tracked beautifully at 3 degrees with just the 1" strut spacer before these coilovers and JBA UCAs, FWIW.

Really appreciate your insights. Thanks, man!

No problem, I would talk to them if they can fix your tabs for you. Usually you can just loosen/remove the cams from the bushing and get a prybar or decent punch and "tap" them back in place followed by some welding to reinforce it.

The higher caster will give you straight line stability and better "turn-in" on corners, as higher caster will naturally cause the tires to gain negative camber in a turn. What you're probably feeling in terms of the turning resistance is a combination of camber (you didn't really mention what you're at but I'll assume probably a little positive or near zero) and SAI (Steering Angle Inclination). Usually SAI gets out of spec when we lift our vehicles and rarely can you bring it back within specification (though sometimes you can), it's an often over-looked measurement because there isn't a whole lot you can do with it on most Toyota suspensions save for replacing parts (we'll use it occasionally on curbed cars to get a rough idea if the spindle got ****ed if we think it's borderline). But SAI does affect "Steer Camber" which can affect the effort you feel when turning; like I said dropping the Caster towards 3.5° to 4.0° and maybe shooting for about -0.05° or -1.0° of Camber might help with that steering feel. I would also try chalking your tires if you haven't done it to determine what your ideal tire pressure should be for your vehicle.

 

[Pedro367]

No problem, I would talk to them if they can fix your tabs for you. Usually you can just loosen/remove the cams from the bushing and get a prybar or decent punch and "tap" them back in place followed by some welding to reinforce it.

The higher caster will give you straight line stability and better "turn-in" on corners, as higher caster will naturally cause the tires to gain negative camber in a turn. What you're probably feeling in terms of the turning resistance is a combination of camber (you didn't really mention what you're at but I'll assume probably a little positive or near zero) and SAI (Steering Angle Inclination). Usually SAI gets out of spec when we lift our vehicles and rarely can you bring it back within specification (though sometimes you can), it's an often over-looked measurement because there isn't a whole lot you can do with it on most Toyota suspensions save for replacing parts (we'll use it occasionally on curbed cars to get a rough idea if the spindle got ****ed if we think it's borderline). But SAI does affect "Steer Camber" which can affect the effort you feel when turning; like I said dropping the Caster towards 3.5° to 4.0° and maybe shooting for about -0.05° or -1.0° of Camber might help with that steering feel. I would also try chalking your tires if you haven't done it to determine what your ideal tire pressure should be for your vehicle.

Camber numbers I'm not sure, was just told it was in spec. Caster is at 4.5. My KO2s are at 32psi all around, but I've never chalked them.

I just talked to the shop and will get it in next week sometime and report back. I've sure learned a lot about alignments in the last few days...

 

[IslandJim]

Tinkerer should have his own thread

It's worth watching this guys' content before you choose your suspension. He clears up a lot of misinformation that's been often considered to be fixed knowledge. Tinkerer's Adventure - YouTube

For example fox TRD Pro shocks have about 1.5" of extended travel over the normal ones. AND - the stock UCA has plenty of ball joint range of motion for extended travel shocks. Also many aftermarket shocks are extended travel - they just don't say on the marketing. Bilstein, Ironman, OME etc often have just as much travel as the "extended" travel ICON or Fox setups.

Thanks a mil for posting this JetBoy, Tinkerer is great and does have a lot of good information.

 

[patkelly4370]

Had more of the underlayment brought in and now filling in around the sides and end. They dumped it right at the end. I moved 136 wheelbarrow loads, paying the price now. That's getting rough on this old body.
Before heading to work on Wed I had to be the first one to park on it, so I drove over the mound and took a picture.
Carport arrived so that will start going up when I get home Mon morning. Projects are difficult when I'm home only 2 days a week.

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[patkelly4370]

I now have a place to work on the 4runner and our other vehicles. Level, flat, smooth, no more dirt, rocks, and cardboard.
Who put those boxes on my slab!?! That's a greenhouse. More projects.
On the 4runner. Skid plates are painted (and now scratched). Still need to repaint one control arm (oops) and paint the other. Install those and the new suspension system to replace the spacer lift.

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[honda250xtitan]

I love the house mod/car mod thread. next youre gonna be running conduit and lighting/outlets. gotta get a portacool too. mines pretty much on non stop at this point.

 

[patkelly4370]

I love the house mod/car mod thread. next youre gonna be running conduit and lighting/outlets. gotta get a portacool too. mines pretty much on non stop at this point.

I had already mulled over running lights under it. Not doing it. Extension cords from the garage will be sufficient.
Portacool would be a losing battle. We're over 100° and will stay there until October.

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[Jakeepoo3]

Camber numbers I'm not sure, was just told it was in spec. Caster is at 4.5. My KO2s are at 32psi all around, but I've never chalked them.

I just talked to the shop and will get it in next week sometime and report back. I've sure learned a lot about alignments in the last few days...

It took me awhile to dial in my first set of wildpeaks. 33's on 3" lift. They were installed at around 35 psi. Car felt tipsy around cornering and drove crappy in general. I stiffened them up to 42 psi slowly until I had it just right. Completely different truck. Maybe something to give a try.

 

[honda250xtitan]

I had already mulled over running lights under it. Not doing it. Extension cords from the garage will be sufficient.
Portacool would be a losing battle. We're over 100° and will stay there until October.

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it works if youre sitting right in front of it. much better then just a fan. my shade is only 10' tall so i feel the heat through the R panel. i'm also in downtown phx, its hooooooooot. much worse then at my parents place in tolleson

 

[Pedro367]

It took me awhile to dial in my first set of wildpeaks. 33's on 3" lift. They were installed at around 35 psi. Car felt tipsy around cornering and drove crappy in general. I stiffened them up to 42 psi slowly until I had it just right. Completely different truck. Maybe something to give a try.

My tires were never the issue. They just had to get the alignment right. They did and it drives great now.

 

[patkelly4370]

it works if youre sitting right in front of it. much better then just a fan. my shade is only 10' tall so i feel the heat through the R panel. i'm also in downtown phx, its hooooooooot. much worse then at my parents place in tolleson

In Phoenix you're getting just as much heat coming up from the ground.
I'm in Golden Valley, midway between Kingman & Bullhead City.

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[patkelly4370]

This might be my weekend (Mon & Tue) to install the parts.
Upper control arms.
Front adjustable coilovers (¼" spacer on the left).
Rear shocks and springs (½" spacer on the left).
Aluminum skid plates.
A lot of work and no one can see it unless they crawl under the truck.

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[patkelly4370]

Might be back Sun around noon!
Be able to nap after driving all night. Organize and set up. Possibly start Sun night once it cools down.
Mon & Tue are cooler. Forecast hi g hs 99°. That's why I do this at night. With a shop fan blowing the bugs away.

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[patkelly4370]

Parts ready to install.

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[patkelly4370]

Installed the rear. Not settled, the rear went from 37½ish" to 38¼ish". Have the numbers written down, too tired to go get them right now.
Got up at midnight, started driving at 1am. Got back at 11am. Got home around 2pm, took a nap and started the install around 5pm after feeding the horses.
There was a 1" spacer on top of the OEM rear springs. The Eibach springs are the same height as the OEM + spacer. The Eibach shocks are about ¾" longer than OEM.

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[patkelly4370]

Had to stop because I'm tired, and there's a thunderstorm coming in.

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