got insulted!

[Koz]

Originally posted by Baba Booey
I gave the Lexus a very slight edge because of KDSS and (I believe) standard rear air suspension, along with rear height adjustment.

The 4Runner has XREAS and rear air suspension.


The GC has a true low-range (if outfitted properly), which the Freelander does not, so I would give the GC the edge. I consider the Feelander to be a small-sized SUV.

The GC is a POS and has no business off-road.


I would give the Xterra the nod over the 4Runner because of an available rear locker and better ground clearance. Without checking, I believe it may also have better approach/departure angles than the T4R. Its only drawback, in my opinion, is the rear leaf springs, which usually hinder wheel travel and articulation (but they are sturdy).

The Off-Road model Xterra is the only model that compares to the 4Runner. It is the only model that has the off-road goodies but it doesn't have an auto trans. It weighs more than all the 4Runners except the Limited V8 with a 100lb difference. The difference in ground clearance is less then a half inch the 4Runner with 70s has more clearance. If you look at what you get for the money the 4Runner may even be a better bang for the buck.


The Trailblazer is the number one selling mid-sized SUV on the market, and it does have some ability here, such as a low range and body-on-frame construction. Same with the Explorer.

The Trailblazer is one of the WORST off-road vehicles made regardless of what equipment it has.


As I said, the list is only my uneducated opinion given in response to neowig's question....

EDIT:
Without looking, the TrailBlazer may even have a solid rear axle.

The mistake you are making is you're comparing specs (on paper) and NOT real world ability.

Koz

 

[Thai]

Geez, Koz, tell us what you really think of other SUVs!!:

 

[Baba Booey]

Originally posted by Baba Booey
I gave the Lexus a very slight edge because of KDSS and (I believe) standard rear air suspension, along with rear height adjustment.

The 4Runner has XREAS and rear air suspension.


The GC has a true low-range (if outfitted properly), which the Freelander does not, so I would give the GC the edge. I consider the Feelander to be a small-sized SUV.

The GC is a POS and has no business off-road.


I would give the Xterra the nod over the 4Runner because of an available rear locker and better ground clearance. Without checking, I believe it may also have better approach/departure angles than the T4R. Its only drawback, in my opinion, is the rear leaf springs, which usually hinder wheel travel and articulation (but they are sturdy).

The Off-Road model Xterra is the only model that compares to the 4Runner. It is the only model that has the off-road goodies but it doesn't have an auto trans. It weighs more than all the 4Runners except the Limited V8 with a 100lb difference. The difference in ground clearance is less then a half inch the 4Runner with 70s has more clearance. If you look at what you get for the money the 4Runner may even be a better bang for the buck.


The Trailblazer is the number one selling mid-sized SUV on the market, and it does have some ability here, such as a low range and body-on-frame construction. Same with the Explorer.

The Trailblazer is one of the WORST off-road vehicles made regardless of what equipment it has.


As I said, the list is only my uneducated opinion given in response to neowig's question....

EDIT:
Without looking, the TrailBlazer may even have a solid rear axle.

The mistake you are making is you're comparing specs (on paper) and NOT real world ability.

Koz

The person asked how the 4Runner stacks up against other mid-size SUVs in off-road ability. I just thought I would have a little fun and make a impromptu list for him just to give him an idea. The list goes from best to worst, that is why the Trailblazer is near the bottom of my list. Would you have rathered that I stopped with the 4Runner, which would've implied to you that I thought it was the worst off-road vehicle out there?

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, but the T4R is NOT the most off-road capable vehicle in the world.

KDSS is not the same as XREAS. If anything, XREAS would hinder wheel articulation by limiting flex at the opposite corner while KDSS enhances it by enabling the front sway bar to be disengaged. Check out the GX470 RTI with and without KDSS.

A properly equipped Jeep GC (proper transfer case and available skid protection) is not too bad on the trail, regardless of what your personal feelings are. I would say it ranks slightly behind the T4R because of its tendency to scrape bottom.

Many off-road enthusiasts prefer a manual transmission, so what's your point on the Xterra? The 4Runner with 70s is modified. I am talking stock. What if I modded the Xterra?

I expected that people wouldn't agree with my list. No one ever agrees on lists. What would your list look like?

 

[OUTRNNR]

I gotta good story about me vs. the new LR3.

A couple months ago I was coming down from the mountains heading east on I-70 and I'm just cruisin along minding my own business and I see this pair of HID lights weaving in and out of traffic behind me. As it gets closer I can tell its a new LR3. He finally pulls in behind me and starts tailgating me then he abrubtly swerves into the right lane to pass. There obviously isn't enough room for him to get around me as there is a car in his way in the right lane, so he pulls even with me and I glance over and see that this thing is brand new, temp plates and all, and the douschebag driving it looks like some queer out of a martini bar in manhattan, $500 sunglasses and all. He has to slow for the car and front of him, and then cuts back in behind me. So I'm thinking, hmmm I think I'll show him what his LR3 is really made of.

We pass the slower car in the right lane and he again pulls out in the right lane to pass. I've got a good 8-10 car lengths from the car in front of me, so he thinks he's going to just floor it, and get around and cut back in front of me. I don't think so. I drop down into 4th going about 65-70 and walk away from him. He again has to cut in behind me.

We cruise for a little while until another opening in traffic occurs, this time its up the back of Floyd hill (steep and windy section of I-70 coming into the foothills heading into Denver). He again tries to pull out and pass. This time I have no one in front of me, so I let him get even, and right as he looks over at me I drop into 3rd and immediately start pulling away giving him the wave as I leave him in my smelly exhaust trail.

I was thinking to myself, I wonder if that guy realizes he just got smoked by a SUV that costs $25k less than his...

 

[sharp4runr]

The SE Offroad Xterra does come with an Auto transmission. A guy that used to work with me had one and we commuted on a daily basis.

Also I'll agree that the XREAS is worst offroad than the KDSS would be. XREAS is designed to enhance on road driving while KDSS does so both off/on road...

 

[RonMAIDEN]

I can't argue with you, but I believe that a well-driven stock Range Rover is tough to beat off-road because of its superior wheel travel and articulation. Without checking, I believe it has one of the highest ramp-travel indices of any SUV (pre- 2007 Rubicon).

You are correct and that's where the Range Rover does shine but you don't have to spend an arm and a leg for a 4Runner and it's maintenance.

 

[Koz]

The SE Offroad Xterra does come with an Auto transmission. A guy that used to work with me had one and we commuted on a daily basis.

Also I'll agree that the XREAS is worst offroad than the KDSS would be. XREAS is designed to enhance on road driving while KDSS does so both off/on road...

The off-road model Xterra comes standard with a manual, auto trans is optional. Not only is the auto trans optional the 2 speed transfer case is optional on all Xterra's.

I know the KDSS is better for off-road, I just wanted to mention the rear air susp is available for the 4Runner.

Koz

 

[Koz]

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, but the T4R is NOT the most off-road capable vehicle in the world.

KDSS is not the same as XREAS. If anything, XREAS would hinder wheel articulation by limiting flex at the opposite corner while KDSS enhances it by enabling the front sway bar to be disengaged. Check out the GX470 RTI with and without KDSS.

A properly equipped Jeep GC (proper transfer case and available skid protection) is not too bad on the trail, regardless of what your personal feelings are. I would say it ranks slightly behind the T4R because of its tendency to scrape bottom.

Many off-road enthusiasts prefer a manual transmission, so what's your point on the Xterra? The 4Runner with 70s is modified. I am talking stock. What if I modded the Xterra?

I expected that people wouldn't agree with my list. No one ever agrees on lists. What would your list look like?

I have no allusions that the 4Runner is the best at anything, but it does everything very well and better then most.

I should not have mentioned the XREAS because I did not mean to compare it to KDSS. I just wanted to mention the rear air susp. that is available for the 4Runner.

There is no way the GC should be used for any off-roading that involves going through water. It will drown and will not be covered by the warranty.

I know some people prefer a manual trans (me for one) but the reason I mentioned it is that an automatic will cost more, just like the 2 speed transfer case.

The difference in ground clearance is less then a half inch, which is a non-factor and can easily be equal with the first tire change that most people will do. Also the rear air will give the 4Runner a big advantage over the Xterra.

The one thing I am sure of is that if someone took half of the money difference between any of the vehicle higher on your list and invested it in the 4Runner, that list would look allot different.

Koz

 

[ToyotaDan]

A friend of mine who's got Land Rover Freelancer(Free lander?, not sure...don't give a sh*t) proudly claimed that my t4r can't go offroad cuz it's toyota. only Land Rovers can do that, he said.

i'll admit that Land Rovers got the name recognition, but if you look at any car review rags, its rating usually filled with black-dots - meaning you better have a good relationship with your dealer, HA!

Which got me thinking, though. Among the major players in the mid-sized SUVs, how is t4r ranked in terms of off-road capability? Maybe Land Rovers might do better offroad but i reckon T4Rs are not far behind...

Here is me and my buddy in his new Land Rover. Yeah they rock, except when you hit a puddle. My stock 4runner went through this like it didn't exist.

 

[Baba Booey]

Re: Re: got insulted!

Here is me and my buddy in his new Land Rover. Yeah they rock, except when you hit a puddle. My stock 4runner went through this like it didn't exist.

Maybe your BFGs (and 3" lift?)made a lot of difference...:

 

[ToyotaDan]

Re: Re: Re: got insulted!

Maybe your BFGs (and 3" lift?)made a lot of difference...:

Honestly - this was last summer before I got the BFGs and the lift. It was still cheapo dunlops and it still made it through. I honestly think his would too, but his tires are even worse than the dunlops.

 

[Northof49]

Re: Re: Re: got insulted!

Maybe your BFGs (and 3" lift?)made a lot of difference...:

Maybe Rover = poop?

One or the other.....we may never know the real answer. If Rover is such a hardcore off-road vehicle as the advertising likes you to think it is, why equip them with low profile on-road tires? Poseur company....

Rover's/Rover owners are like that guy at the ski hill that's decked from head to toe in $1000's of brand new gear. He's got the best board on the market, shiny exotic helmet, $2K jacket......but you never see him at the top of a double black

 

[Thai]

Re: Re: Re: Re: got insulted!

Honestly - this was last summer before I got the BFGs and the lift. It was still cheapo dunlops and it still made it through. I honestly think his would too, but his tires are even worse than the dunlops.

I would bet that the RR failed from the driver pussy-footing thru that muddy crossing.

And does that RR driver know how to use his ride?? His suspension is still on NORMAL ride height...shouldn't be set to the highest??

 

[Thai]

Re: Re: Re: Re: got insulted!

Maybe Rover = poop?

One or the other.....we may never know the real answer. If Rover is such a hardcore off-road vehicle as the advertising likes you to think it is, why equip them with low profile on-road tires? Poseur company....

The problem is that RR's disc brakes are so big that smaller alloy rims cannot fit. I think that the smallest alloy you can fit is 18"...and there is simply not much tire selection for the off-roading crowd in that size. Over in Europe, Goodyear MT/R comes in 19" size. That should help a bit.

As far as the RR's capability, i do think that they are quite capable (provided adequate tires). The underbody is very clean. The control arms are forged steel. The suspension travel is very good (10" in front, 13-14 in rear). Approach, breakover, and departure angles are excellent as is ground clearance. LR's ATRAC system has always been regarded among the best...very well-calibrated for off-roading. I have seen it in action (on my brother's Discovery)...it actually does stop a wheel from spinning completely to transfer torque to the other wheel, instead of just pulsation of the brakes. Maybe this is why they have such huge brakes?! Lastly, the unibody on the RR is pretty much a bank vault. I think that you can snag two Range Rovers (each 5600 lbs) at the same time...it is that strong! Unlike most other unibodies, you can actually open & close the doors when cross-axled.

LR3 is about equal to RR in capability IMHO. It does not have the same great angles and ground clearance as RR, but it does come with a rear locker (still not available on RR). The frame on the LR3 is VERY strong...on par with RR's unibody...this is why it is so heavy. The big negative with LR3 is the Terrain Response computer. Basically, the computer determines when you lock the center or rear diff, when to engage LOW range, etc.. This may be good for an average off-roader, but it may be bad in a tough situation where the computer may get confused. In addition, the computer's reaction is slow...rear locker engagement can be painfully slow...which can lead to you being stuck.

Of course, the biggest problem with RR and LR3 is RELIABILITY. There are PLENTY of stories of blown front differentials every 30K miles! Air suspension goes out at the worst time...it's not a good thing to go into Limp-Home mode (lowest suspension setting) when you're rock crawling!

How does these LR's products compare to 4runner? Well, it's real close..........but in the end, reliability is just as important as anything else. It's nice to be able to get to the head of the trail, but it would be even better if you can make it back home in one piece!

 

[Thai]

There is no way the GC should be used for any off-roading that involves going through water. It will drown and will not be covered by the warranty.

I know some people prefer a manual trans (me for one) but the reason I mentioned it is that an automatic will cost more, just like the 2 speed transfer case.

The one thing I am sure of is that if someone took half of the money difference between any of the vehicle higher on your list and invested it in the 4Runner, that list would look allot different.

Koz

Jeep GC...drowning?? Why does it drown?? I thought that Jeep supplies breather tubes for their vehicles...at least on the stock Wranglers.

I will tell that most (if not all) drownings will NOT be covered under warranty for any manufacturer. I seriously doubt that Toyota or Land Rover will cover flooded engine/tranny parts.

Jeep GC's new QD system (ELSD) is supposed to be very good...about as close to a true locker as you get. Ground clearance and breakover angles are crappy, but it's underbody is fairly clean (cleaner than 4runners)...very little sticks below the frame. Therefore, you may scrape a lot, but the vital parts should still be OK. Suspension travel is probably on-par with 4runners. And unlike Toyota, Jeep vehicles can be ordered with rock sliders from the Mopar accessory book along with winches and stronger skidplates. That is one good thing about Jeeps...both aftermarket support and Mopar accessories are impressive.

As for the Xterra's optional transfer case, isn't this also the case on 4runners?? You pay extra for the 4wd 4runner model, don't you?? As for the automatic being optional, this is a plus for many people as you mentioned...and with Xterra being cheaper than 4runner, this should not be an issue (in terms of cost of vehicle). Underbody on the Xterra is fairly clean too. The only bad part is the Frontier suspension parts...aka leaf rear springs. This is why Xterra has such shitty suspension flex! But, it does make it up a little bit with it's optional rear locker.

 

[ToyotaDan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: got insulted!

I would bet that the RR failed from the driver pussy-footing thru that muddy crossing.

And does that RR driver know how to use his ride?? His suspension is still on NORMAL ride height...shouldn't be set to the highest??

it was on highest. i remember him setting it and waiting the 60 seconds or so for it to engage... and he did gun it... he just got stuck...

 

[wilsoncwil]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: got insulted!

I would bet that the RR failed from the driver pussy-footing thru that muddy crossing.

And does that RR driver know how to use his ride?? His suspension is still on NORMAL ride height...shouldn't be set to the highest??

You hit it right on the head, any guy who drives a RR is a p@#$y. Real men drive 4Runners.

 

[Dennis]

I like discussing the merits of different vehicles as much as anybody, but many of the posts on this thread make me embarrassed to be driving a 4Runner. "Real" off-road drivers do no indulge in pissing contests on vehicles--especially on stock vehicles.

If you want to drive the trails, just get out there and have fun. Show respect to every vehicle you see, because you never know when the guy pulling you out might be driving a Land Rover Freelander.

 

[Thai]

because you never know when the guy pulling you out might be driving a Land Rover Freelander.

Just make sure that the guy does not belong on any internet forum or has a video camera!!

New rule: if you had to be towed out of mud by a Freelander, then you are banned for life from this forum! Just kidding...well, only half kidding!:

 

[M3_962]

show him the vids embedded at the top of this page...

http://forum.ih8mud.com/forumdisplay.php?f=41

(reload to cycle through different ones)