Touareg is pretty notorious for expensive problems. 1st gen Cayenne can get pretty bad, but 08+ are decent. As far as Land Rover, Disco II is a (charismatic) headache, and if you want reliability you can forget about your Range Rover dreams. LR3 is good if you avoid the early model years. Same for 1st gen RR Sport since it's mechanically identical to the LR3.
Has anyone gone from Land Rover to 4Runner?
- Thread starter Dexter Morgan
- Start date
Touareg is pretty notorious for expensive problems. 1st gen Cayenne can get pretty bad, but 08+ are decent. As far as Land Rover, Disco II is a (charismatic) headache, and if you want reliability you can forget about your Range Rover dreams. LR3 is good if you avoid the early model years. Same for 1st gen RR Sport since it's mechanically identical to the LR3.
How about 14/15 Touareg models? Ive been reading up on them and from what I can see, its usually the diesels with their emission components that have issues and that is usually betweem 50k-80k miles. Im not sure of any common issues on the base VR6 model (non diesel)... Although of course, that doesnt mean there are none. I just havent heard of many.
I know the early models have been known to have more issues. I think the 14/15 Touareg models are more reliable than LR/RR. I wonder between the Grand Cherokee and Touareg, which is more reliable... Its interesting to know the Cayennes are becoming more reliable though....
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TRDP-FL
New member
Funny to come across this thread. I came from a 2010 Land Rover LR4 with Toyo mud terrains, and Fuel Offroad Wheels. Pretty well set up for the Florida terrain. As my CPO warranty was approaching it's end, I decided I wanted something brand new and a bit less expensive to maintain. I ultimately want to do some real overlanding and reliability is my top priority (and a much better aftermarket base). Test drove the TRD Pro and knew it was going to be a good switch. 3000 miles later and haven't looked back. Good luck to anyone else considering the switch.
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Some of you guys make me laugh with all these reliability concerns. Fact of the matter is that most of you seem to be blowing it waaaaaay out of proportion. Even the lowest rated new vehicle is going to be reliable overall. Modern vehicles rarely break down and leave you stranded. Can it happen? Sure. Does it happen? VERY rarely. Limp-home mode is a wonderful thing, especially when you have that unlucky moment when something does go wrong. I have never once in my life had a vehicle failure that left me stranded. Not once. And I've owned quite a few German cars and American cars as well. Is anyone seriously worried about breaking down on the trail? Seriously? The odds of breaking down are very small. And to worry about that happening during that 1% of the time you're on the trail is just silly.
So seriously, stop with the reliability worries because its really nothing to worry about at all.
So seriously, stop with the reliability worries because its really nothing to worry about at all.
Jeremy556
New member
Not everyone conducts their entire existence in cell phone service and within walking distance of a starbucks. Break down on a trail out here, and you'll likely be 50-100 miles away from cell phone service, not to mention a wrecker won't even think about leaving a maintained dirt road. You're going to need someone to tow strap your car back to maintained roads, then pay a wrecker to get your car back 200+ miles to a garage.
Sure. Get hit by lightning out on that trail and you're outta luck too. But that's the point--odds of that happening are rare. Very rare. In fact, you're MUCH more likely to get yourself stuck (if you're doing any kind of serious offroading) than you are to break down in ANY vehicle, regardless of reliability ratings. And besides, if you're offroading alone, you're breaking rule #1 in the offroader's handbook, which is of course to never offroad alone.
But I digress....let me ask you about your first sentence. So tell me how often you yourself are on a trail outside of cell phone service. Give me a rough estimate, using a percentage of your time. 2%? Maybe 3%? Unless your name is Daniel Boone and you live out in the wilderness, I'm guessing that 99% of the time you're well within cell phone range, right? And if that's correct, take it to the next step....for that 1% of the time that you're NOT within cell phone range, what are the odds that your vehicle will decide to call it quits? Now take it a step further....say you have the most reliable new vehicle known to man and you also own the least reliable new vehicle known to man. How much have your odds changed? You know, being that 1% time that you're out in the sticks and your vehicle breaks down. I think you have a better chance of winning Lotto and then getting hit by lightning on the very same day. LOL
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T4R2014
Elite Member
This isn't the first time this topic popped up. It was discussed in this fanboy-fest a little while back.
Yeah, the whole thing is just silly. As a long-time 4Runner owner who currently drives a new Grand Cherokee, I'll admit that Toyota reliability is something that gives owners that "feel good" feeling and confidence. But at the same time, even a fully loaded Range Rover with every electronic gizmo known to man wouldn't cause me to lose sleep at night because I'd be worried that it will break down on the road or off the road. The way some of these guys talk, you'd think the roads are littered with broken down Jeeps and Land Rovers left and right. Hell, I can't even think of the last time I've seen a newer car broken down on the side of the road. I've seen a few cars with flat tires and I'm sure a few that were out of fuel, but actually broken down to the point that they won't drive? Nah...hardly ever see that.
Jeremy556
New member
I've been breaking rule #1 for over a hundred thousand miles. I've been stuck plenty, but never beyond what I can free myself.
You obviously aren't familiar with the american west. The only areas here with cell coverage are along interstates, and even that is spotty. As an overall percentage, when I am on a trail, at best 1-5% of the time is there any cell service at all. I carry a sat phone and radio with local repeaters programmed for emergency use.
JSparky
New member
x2
I had my transmission grenade in a 3-month old rubicon on the beaches of baja. Had locals craft a tow bar so another jeep could drag me back up to the border. I've also witnessed tie rods, shocks, axles, brake hoses, and drive shafts break on the trail outside of cell-coverage. I'm not sure where T.Rock is coming from.. a vehicles inherent strength and reliability seems quite relevant when going off-highway and, depending on an individuals needs, seems like a completely valid criteria when judging vehicles :noidea:
The concern is not solely that the thing will literally leave you stranded, at least for me... If I just bought a brand new vehicle and the check engine light is on and the heat doesnt work (for example), or there is ANY reason Ive got to take time out of my schedule to have serious repairs done on the thing, and I cant drive it for days/weeks on end, but Im paying hundreds of dollars a month for it... That to me is the definition of unreliable...
Its not just the extent to which it needs repair, but how frequently as well.
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wfo9
New member
I'll add one thing to this thread. Did not bother read the entire epic.
Are Toyota's reliable and well built? Sure. Are all cars and truck pretty darn reliable these days? Yep..
Are Toyota's bullet proof off-road? Not even close, many things can go wrong in a hurry, but they are better than most.
Is the gap between Toyota and others in terms of reliability the same as it was 15 years ago? Not even close, the gap has narrowed a significant amount.
Is Toyota reliability still better. I think so, but time will tell for sure.
Would I buy a Toyota vs others. Yep, right now it is still on top in my book for overland/offroad.
Would I take a new RR if it was given to me? Probably not. I would be too embarrassed to drive it LOL. The entire image is pretty much my antithesis. That's just my opinion. I may have a skewed view of them. No offense to other owner... I'm sure there is a cool aspect to them, I just can't see it for myself.
Are Toyota's reliable and well built? Sure. Are all cars and truck pretty darn reliable these days? Yep..
Are Toyota's bullet proof off-road? Not even close, many things can go wrong in a hurry, but they are better than most.
Is the gap between Toyota and others in terms of reliability the same as it was 15 years ago? Not even close, the gap has narrowed a significant amount.
Is Toyota reliability still better. I think so, but time will tell for sure.
Would I buy a Toyota vs others. Yep, right now it is still on top in my book for overland/offroad.
Would I take a new RR if it was given to me? Probably not. I would be too embarrassed to drive it LOL. The entire image is pretty much my antithesis. That's just my opinion. I may have a skewed view of them. No offense to other owner... I'm sure there is a cool aspect to them, I just can't see it for myself.
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When I mention reliability, I'm not scared I'm going to be as you put it "broken down on the side of the road." I'm actually scared, the damn thing is going to be in the shop more than I drive it... I had several weird electrical issues with my last Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Jetboy
New member
There's really three distinct issues with owning a low quality vehicle:
First is the actual safety of having an unreliable vehicle. This can be either remote areas or breaking down in less safe urban areas. In urban areas in the untied states, this isn't very likely. If you drive down to the Baja - yes this can be an issue. If you want to go to Panama, more likely. And if you drive around Africa - very likely in certain places.
Being in remote areas is only for those of us in the west. There's nowhere east that you can't walk to some highway in a few hours. In the west people actually do die in broke down or stuck cars every year. Usually it's a series of poor choices that lead up to the ultimate demise, however there are plenty of places out here that have less than 1 vehicle per week travel the roads. You break down, you're in for a very long walk or hoping someone knows where you are. We usually go out for a week at a time once or twice a year to the most remote places we can here and at a minimum bring a mountain bike. Walking out isn't even a consideration if it's 70 or 100 miles. It's not only poor quality electronics that disable vehicles. These areas also test the durability of the hardware. I've seen cherokee's with punctured gas tanks, I've broken u-joints, axle shafts, differentials, steering knuckles, steering arms, and all sorts of other mechanical parts. Toyota's break too. If you're not going to places where you're at risk of snapping axles, you're not talking about the same trails I am. And if you're not going to the more difficult places, then the concern isn't as significant.
Ultimately in both cases of danger it's a question of probability of failure combined with consequence of failure and balancing that against the value to the individual owning a LR over say a Land Cruiser.
The second issue with low quality manufacturing is durability in general. I think this is the most important as it's the actual day to day PITA of having to deal with repairs. In the Serengeti there is almost 100% cell phone coverage. Yet you almost never see a Land Rover. Why? Because they don't hold up well to the environment there. Wheel bearings, broken springs, you name it, it breaks, even on Land Cruisers. Our local guide said that they had bought a few LR's about 5 years ago and they scrapped them after 2 years because they couldn't keep them going. Of course this is an extreme example, but it's pretty true in the west as well. My in law's ranch requires about 10 miles of dirt/gravel that is maintained once or twice a year. Bombing down washboard like that every day destroys cars. I remember one night her parent's for Explorer's front hub assembly literally fell off. It was 3 years old. Bearings in the dirt. And there's no cell signal. So while it might not be dangerous, it's a huge PITA to have to replace door panels that fall off, wheel bearings, ball joints, etc every few years. The durability issue is more of a headache and operating cost issue than safety, but it's very real and much more applicable to most drivers and more applicable again to rural life. It's also why I'll never own another chevy truck. Our shop truck has been nothing but repairs since new. With 80k miles it's had a transfer case, transmission, front differential, all fail. The interior is falling apart. It's had a bunch of electrical issues like crank position sensor (huge PITA because some dipshit engineer decided it would be better to put it in the bell housing than on the front harmonic dampener like everyone else in the world), transmission shift sensor, and a few others. Tows like a freight train, but it's just not worth he hassle.
The third is resale. Low quality vehicles have low resale and are in turn more expensive to own. This is probably the most important as it applies to every owner. A car with a shorter useable lifespan is going to have a significant reduction is value over the same period of ownership as one that has a longer expected lifespan.
In the end, most LR owners and most 4runner owners rarely venture off the asphalt. IIRC Subaru Outbacks are the most likely vehicle to actually go off road, but I do see quite a few Tacomas, wranglers, and 4runners. I've never seen a LR off road in the states other than a few around the slickrock area in Moab. I've passed H1's, scouts, pinzgaours, unimogs, even some rare stuff like an FJ45 Troopy in many years as the trail master of a large offroad club in Montana, but never an LR. So the only thing I can really say from personal experience is that I've never seen one break down other than in the once in Kenya where we did see a D110 billowing black smoke on the side of the road. Could be the most reliable vehicle in the world.
First is the actual safety of having an unreliable vehicle. This can be either remote areas or breaking down in less safe urban areas. In urban areas in the untied states, this isn't very likely. If you drive down to the Baja - yes this can be an issue. If you want to go to Panama, more likely. And if you drive around Africa - very likely in certain places.
Being in remote areas is only for those of us in the west. There's nowhere east that you can't walk to some highway in a few hours. In the west people actually do die in broke down or stuck cars every year. Usually it's a series of poor choices that lead up to the ultimate demise, however there are plenty of places out here that have less than 1 vehicle per week travel the roads. You break down, you're in for a very long walk or hoping someone knows where you are. We usually go out for a week at a time once or twice a year to the most remote places we can here and at a minimum bring a mountain bike. Walking out isn't even a consideration if it's 70 or 100 miles. It's not only poor quality electronics that disable vehicles. These areas also test the durability of the hardware. I've seen cherokee's with punctured gas tanks, I've broken u-joints, axle shafts, differentials, steering knuckles, steering arms, and all sorts of other mechanical parts. Toyota's break too. If you're not going to places where you're at risk of snapping axles, you're not talking about the same trails I am. And if you're not going to the more difficult places, then the concern isn't as significant.
Ultimately in both cases of danger it's a question of probability of failure combined with consequence of failure and balancing that against the value to the individual owning a LR over say a Land Cruiser.
The second issue with low quality manufacturing is durability in general. I think this is the most important as it's the actual day to day PITA of having to deal with repairs. In the Serengeti there is almost 100% cell phone coverage. Yet you almost never see a Land Rover. Why? Because they don't hold up well to the environment there. Wheel bearings, broken springs, you name it, it breaks, even on Land Cruisers. Our local guide said that they had bought a few LR's about 5 years ago and they scrapped them after 2 years because they couldn't keep them going. Of course this is an extreme example, but it's pretty true in the west as well. My in law's ranch requires about 10 miles of dirt/gravel that is maintained once or twice a year. Bombing down washboard like that every day destroys cars. I remember one night her parent's for Explorer's front hub assembly literally fell off. It was 3 years old. Bearings in the dirt. And there's no cell signal. So while it might not be dangerous, it's a huge PITA to have to replace door panels that fall off, wheel bearings, ball joints, etc every few years. The durability issue is more of a headache and operating cost issue than safety, but it's very real and much more applicable to most drivers and more applicable again to rural life. It's also why I'll never own another chevy truck. Our shop truck has been nothing but repairs since new. With 80k miles it's had a transfer case, transmission, front differential, all fail. The interior is falling apart. It's had a bunch of electrical issues like crank position sensor (huge PITA because some dipshit engineer decided it would be better to put it in the bell housing than on the front harmonic dampener like everyone else in the world), transmission shift sensor, and a few others. Tows like a freight train, but it's just not worth he hassle.
The third is resale. Low quality vehicles have low resale and are in turn more expensive to own. This is probably the most important as it applies to every owner. A car with a shorter useable lifespan is going to have a significant reduction is value over the same period of ownership as one that has a longer expected lifespan.
In the end, most LR owners and most 4runner owners rarely venture off the asphalt. IIRC Subaru Outbacks are the most likely vehicle to actually go off road, but I do see quite a few Tacomas, wranglers, and 4runners. I've never seen a LR off road in the states other than a few around the slickrock area in Moab. I've passed H1's, scouts, pinzgaours, unimogs, even some rare stuff like an FJ45 Troopy in many years as the trail master of a large offroad club in Montana, but never an LR. So the only thing I can really say from personal experience is that I've never seen one break down other than in the once in Kenya where we did see a D110 billowing black smoke on the side of the road. Could be the most reliable vehicle in the world.
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Dexter Morgan
New member
What a thread!! For those interested, I have made up my mind to ditch the '07 RR and go for a '15 Trail non premium (again, the headroom). No KDSS.
This past weekend was the straw that broke the camel's back. Nearly every start up, I am getting the ABS, HDC Fault, Transmission Fault and Brake Light warnings. Shut off vehicle, turn back on, all warnings go away. Likely a software update, but F that, I don't want to spend another dime on this hunk of shit. Add to that no driver's heated seat (broken), CD changer broken and tilt wheel broken and there you have it. Still rides like a dream though!!
SO...is there anyone here who sees why I shouldn't get a '15 4runner? I don't off road, but I don't want a mushy, flaccid crossover and under no circumstances do I want a Heep Cherokee. I want to do an OME lift, give it a proper stance and have a true BOF SUV with Toyota proven reliability (still built in Japan too!). [MENTION=50014]Desert[/MENTION]Dawg ' s build really inspired me as have the other countless threads in the "lifted pix" section. :guitar3:
I've always been an outlier and that's part of the appeal of the 4runner for me. I just don't want to have a honeymoon period then not like it...
wfo9
New member
Just read that thread about "I'm starting to not like my 2014....". That covers all the complaints. I'm not sure I would want a T4R if I did not take it off road (maybe).
The biggest issue with them for me (although I sort of resolved it on mine). Is the lack of power, which is really more of a lack of throttle mapping and gearing.
The motor itself has the power, its just not well managed by the ECU and transmission. Going to 4.56 gearing really helped mine out, but it kills mpg and would be a bad decision for most people. It's tolerable overall, but it was the only thing I really did not like about driving my 5th gen on the road.
RESQLAB
New member
Hey Dexter Morgan...
Go buy it... the 4Runner is one of the last actually "Made in Japan" 4x4's.
Someone in a recent post said that their 4Runner gives them a "sense of pride" when they are driving it that they had not felt in a long time... I'd have to agree (its not like my past three FJ60's Land Cruisers, but its pretty darn close).
I came out of a 2013 F150 and that thing would practically go catatonic when something minimal went wrong. Heck, you'd break a simple plastic tab off something and the whole piece was now laying in your hands! Curious, I logged on to my old F150forum.com yesterday and its still pages of complaints and problems.
Go buy it... the 4Runner is one of the last actually "Made in Japan" 4x4's.
Someone in a recent post said that their 4Runner gives them a "sense of pride" when they are driving it that they had not felt in a long time... I'd have to agree (its not like my past three FJ60's Land Cruisers, but its pretty darn close).
I came out of a 2013 F150 and that thing would practically go catatonic when something minimal went wrong. Heck, you'd break a simple plastic tab off something and the whole piece was now laying in your hands! Curious, I logged on to my old F150forum.com yesterday and its still pages of complaints and problems.
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Dexter Morgan
New member
If I need to sacrifice a bit of power/power delivery for all the other good things, I am going to do it. I don't have much of a penchant for driving fast or like a yobbo anymore. I just want to be able to keep pace with modern traffic and have a nice drive to and from work, and be proud of what I am driving. If that itch comes to get something really quick, I would get a dedicated car to fit the bill. I need to stop thinking there's a perfect or do everything vehicle out there.
I have also really been impressed with the refinement of the '14+. It doesn't get mentioned all that much, but I think the reduced interior noise and improved interior cabin materials were a huge change for the better. The interior room is also remarkably good. My main complaint is the way it sits from the factory...again too soft looking despite its rugged and chunky looks. These 2.5/1.5 kits with some a/t tires transform the entire vehicle into what it should be.
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