Has anyone gone from Land Rover to 4Runner?

[1engineer]

I have also really been impressed with the refinement of the '14+. It doesn't get mentioned all that much, but I think the reduced interior noise and improved interior cabin materials were a huge change for the better. The interior room is also remarkably good. My main complaint is the way it sits from the factory...again too soft looking despite its rugged and chunky looks. These 2.5/1.5 kits with some a/t tires transform the entire vehicle into what it should be.

I noticed you mentioned this several times...
I have had a 2010 SR5, a 2012 TE with KDSS and now a 2015 SR5 Premium. I have put a total of 130K miles on them total so I have a bit of seat time. The only thing they changed interior wise is:
A. Instrument cluster
B. Seat Material (softex) - No other materials or design changed in the interior.
C. TE models got a different color of paint on the trim plastic.

I am only posting this for prospective buyers out there who might think there was a real interior change in the mid cycle refresh. There was not.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

I noticed you mentioned this several times...
I have had a 2010 SR5, a 2012 TE with KDSS and now a 2015 SR5 Premium. I have put a total of 130K miles on them total so I have a bit of seat time. The only thing they changed interior wise is:
A. Instrument cluster
B. Seat Material (softex) - No other materials or design changed in the interior.
C. TE models got a different color of paint on the trim plastic.

I am only posting this for prospective buyers out there who might think there was a real interior change in the mid cycle refresh. There was not.

What about leather upper on the door handle with deviated stitching? I cannot specifically mention other parts, but wasn't there more "better" touch materials added with the refresh?

The '14 I test drove was markedly quieter and felt more refined inside than the '11 I drove. That thing was noisy, crude and brash. I couldn't believe what a drop off from the 4th gen which from a drivetrain perspective, with the V8, was as good as it gets.

 

[1engineer]

What about leather upper on the door handle with deviated stitching? I cannot specifically mention other parts, but wasn't there more "better" touch materials added with the refresh?

The '14 I test drove was markedly quieter and felt more refined inside than the '11 I drove. That thing was noisy, crude and brash. I couldn't believe what a drop off from the 4th gen which from a drivetrain perspective, with the V8, was as good as it gets.

Nope, just the seat material, instrument cluster and painted plastic. There is no leather except on the seating surfaces and steering wheel on the LE. It's Softex, a leather imitation. I actually like the Softex better than leather as it cleans easily and does not wrinkle up or show wear like leather.
The noise level is different because they added additional under hood insulation in the refresh, compared to only the LE getting this in years prior.

 

[itsdchz]

I am sad, but happy at the same time.

We just sold our 2013 Range Rover last night, and decided to stay in the Toyota family. Now my 2015 T4R has a garage mate. My wife is now driving a 2015 Lexus NX 200t F-Sport.
The leading factor for the sale? The declining resale value of the RR AND the fact that right at 35,000 miles, the transmission keeps faulting, and other warning indications keep popping up. A premonition? maybe... but the peace of mind, I think will rule out in the long run...

 

[bythehour]

Some of you guys make me laugh with all these reliability concerns. Fact of the matter is that most of you seem to be blowing it waaaaaay out of proportion. Even the lowest rated new vehicle is going to be reliable overall. Modern vehicles rarely break down and leave you stranded. Can it happen? Sure. Does it happen? VERY rarely. Limp-home mode is a wonderful thing, especially when you have that unlucky moment when something does go wrong. I have never once in my life had a vehicle failure that left me stranded. Not once. And I've owned quite a few German cars and American cars as well. Is anyone seriously worried about breaking down on the trail? Seriously? The odds of breaking down are very small. And to worry about that happening during that 1% of the time you're on the trail is just silly.

So seriously, stop with the reliability worries because its really nothing to worry about at all.

I've been left stranded by one American (Jeep GC) and never by Germans. My '08 LR3 was in a whole different league.

You have your experience. I have mine. You're probably more mechanically inclined than me. A minor inconvenience to you might be a big deal to me. But, it's all relative.

The concern is not solely that the thing will literally leave you stranded, at least for me... If I just bought a brand new vehicle and the check engine light is on and the heat doesnt work (for example), or there is ANY reason Ive got to take time out of my schedule to have serious repairs done on the thing, and I cant drive it for days/weeks on end, but Im paying hundreds of dollars a month for it... That to me is the definition of unreliable...

Its not just the extent to which it needs repair, but how frequently as well.

Exactly! Aside from being stranded twice last year, I can also count a TPMS failure, hood sensor failure, rear hatch lock failure, front windshield heating element failure, dead radio, and a dead battery. None of which were catastrophic, but all rather annoying.

This past weekend was the straw that broke the camel's back. Nearly every start up, I am getting the ABS, HDC Fault, Transmission Fault and Brake Light warnings. Shut off vehicle, turn back on, all warnings go away. Likely a software update, but F that, I don't want to spend another dime on this hunk of shit. Add to that no driver's heated seat (broken), CD changer broken and tilt wheel broken and there you have it. Still rides like a dream though!!

So you got the patented LR Christmas Light Special? That's pretty common. Odds are it was a weak battery and/or alternator.

I was in the same boat. '15 4R LE on the way

 

[Dexter Morgan]

So you got the patented LR Christmas Light Special? That's pretty common. Odds are it was a weak battery and/or alternator.

I was in the same boat. '15 4R LE on the way

This is what pissed me off the most - my alternator tested fine, battery was replaced (OEM) and this has all happened since then. I really thought the new battery would clear all of this up but it hasn't.

Having read how the Jag based RR's were much more reliable, I am very disappointed with my '07 experiment.

 

[bythehour]

This is what pissed me off the most - my alternator tested fine, battery was replaced (OEM) and this has all happened since then. I really thought the new battery would clear all of this up but it hasn't.

Having read how the Jag based RR's were much more reliable, I am very disappointed with my '07 experiment.

My only consolation was that I got my LR at a huge discount. I bought it smack dab in the middle of the Great Recession. The dealer practically begged me to take it. He got the last laugh as I was a constant visitor to his service lounge.

 

[T.Rock]

I've been breaking rule #1 for over a hundred thousand miles. I've been stuck plenty, but never beyond what I can free myself.

You obviously aren't familiar with the american west. The only areas here with cell coverage are along interstates, and even that is spotty. As an overall percentage, when I am on a trail, at best 1-5% of the time is there any cell service at all. I carry a sat phone and radio with local repeaters programmed for emergency use.

I'm not questioning cell phone coverage areas...I'm questioning the percentage of time that YOU spend out of range for your cell phone. Any time that you're not on a trail, then you'll obviously have other drivers pass you now and again, so even if you happen to be in an area with no cell coverage, at least you're not out all alone with nobody to help you.

I still can't figure out why you (or anyone for that matter) would put yourself in a situation where you're all alone with nobody to help. Many people have died in that situation....especially in extreme weather. Like I said, you're MUCH more likely to get yourself stuck on any serious trail than you are to have a total breakdown that strands you. You can at least admit that, no?

 

[T.Rock]

x2

I had my transmission grenade in a 3-month old rubicon on the beaches of baja. Had locals craft a tow bar so another jeep could drag me back up to the border. I've also witnessed tie rods, shocks, axles, brake hoses, and drive shafts break on the trail outside of cell-coverage. I'm not sure where T.Rock is coming from.. a vehicles inherent strength and reliability seems quite relevant when going off-highway and, depending on an individuals needs, seems like a completely valid criteria when judging vehicles :noidea:

So tell me, how much does your confidence increase doing that sort of thing in a 4Runner versus a Jeep? Quantify it and give me a number....actually a percentage. How much, percentage-wise, does your confidence increase? I'm looking forward to your answer....

 

[T.Rock]

The concern is not solely that the thing will literally leave you stranded, at least for me... If I just bought a brand new vehicle and the check engine light is on and the heat doesnt work (for example), or there is ANY reason Ive got to take time out of my schedule to have serious repairs done on the thing, and I cant drive it for days/weeks on end, but Im paying hundreds of dollars a month for it... That to me is the definition of unreliable...

Its not just the extent to which it needs repair, but how frequently as well.

New vehicles have these great things called warranties. For that 1% of the time that the vehicle is in for repairs, you'll have another vehicle to drive in it's place. It's not a big deal at all. During the 10 years that I owned my 4th gen (purchased it new in '04), it spent a few days at the dealership getting warranty repair work done and I got another car to drive. I didn't lose any sleep over not having my 4Runner for that short time.

 

[T.Rock]

First is the actual safety of having an unreliable vehicle. This can be either remote areas or breaking down in less safe urban areas. In urban areas in the untied states, this isn't very likely. If you drive down to the Baja - yes this can be an issue. If you want to go to Panama, more likely. And if you drive around Africa - very likely in certain places.
Being in remote areas is only for those of us in the west. There's nowhere east that you can't walk to some highway in a few hours. In the west people actually do die in broke down or stuck cars every year. Usually it's a series of poor choices that lead up to the ultimate demise, however there are plenty of places out here that have less than 1 vehicle per week travel the roads. You break down, you're in for a very long walk or hoping someone knows where you are. We usually go out for a week at a time once or twice a year to the most remote places we can here and at a minimum bring a mountain bike. Walking out isn't even a consideration if it's 70 or 100 miles. It's not only poor quality electronics that disable vehicles. These areas also test the durability of the hardware. I've seen cherokee's with punctured gas tanks, I've broken u-joints, axle shafts, differentials, steering knuckles, steering arms, and all sorts of other mechanical parts. Toyota's break too. If you're not going to places where you're at risk of snapping axles, you're not talking about the same trails I am. And if you're not going to the more difficult places, then the concern isn't as significant.
Ultimately in both cases of danger it's a question of probability of failure combined with consequence of failure and balancing that against the value to the individual owning a LR over say a Land Cruiser.

Interesting thoughts....but you're basically preaching to the choir here with my earlier point that getting yourself in a situation on a trail or otherwise offroad is far more likely to be a matter of getting stuck than it is total vehicle failure. Something like a bad sensor is most likely going to cause a "check engine" light and not render the vehicle inoperable. Of course durability is an issues too, as breaking a driveshaft or an axle can also be a serious problem if you're alone in the middle of nowhere, but again, that's the exception, not the rule. All vehicles these days are fairly reliable. Some more than others, but all have certainly improved immensely from the days of carburetors and point ignitions systems. Personally, I'd have no fear at all driving any new 4wd SUV on a relatively risky expedition.

The second issue with low quality manufacturing is durability in general. I think this is the most important as it's the actual day to day PITA of having to deal with repairs. In the Serengeti there is almost 100% cell phone coverage. Yet you almost never see a Land Rover. Why? Because they don't hold up well to the environment there. Wheel bearings, broken springs, you name it, it breaks, even on Land Cruisers. Our local guide said that they had bought a few LR's about 5 years ago and they scrapped them after 2 years because they couldn't keep them going. Of course this is an extreme example, but it's pretty true in the west as well. My in law's ranch requires about 10 miles of dirt/gravel that is maintained once or twice a year. Bombing down washboard like that every day destroys cars. I remember one night her parent's for Explorer's front hub assembly literally fell off. It was 3 years old. Bearings in the dirt. And there's no cell signal. So while it might not be dangerous, it's a huge PITA to have to replace door panels that fall off, wheel bearings, ball joints, etc every few years. The durability issue is more of a headache and operating cost issue than safety, but it's very real and much more applicable to most drivers and more applicable again to rural life. It's also why I'll never own another chevy truck. Our shop truck has been nothing but repairs since new. With 80k miles it's had a transfer case, transmission, front differential, all fail. The interior is falling apart. It's had a bunch of electrical issues like crank position sensor (huge PITA because some dipshit engineer decided it would be better to put it in the bell housing than on the front harmonic dampener like everyone else in the world), transmission shift sensor, and a few others. Tows like a freight train, but it's just not worth he hassle.

Durability can be an issues, but it's honestly difficult to quantify. Everyone has that story of the old XXXXX that he owned that broke down for this reason or for that reason and therefore would never own that brand vehicle again. I have a family member that went from owning American vehicles only (almost exclusively GM products) to owning an Acura and will now buy NOTHING but Acuras. Not even a Honda! It's Acura or nothing. Why? Well, because of ONE good experience with ONE Acura vehicle. That vehicle was a 2000 TL. Today, she drives an MDX (I think it's a 2009) that has been in the shop plenty of times for warranty repairs. But you know what? She still defends the car like it's the greatest thing on four wheels. Brand loyalty (or disloyalty) is a funny thing. Often it comes down to perception more than anything else. If you perceive a vehicle in a positive light (for any reason) than you just might be forgiving when it turns out that it's not the superstar vehicle you had imagined.

The third is resale. Low quality vehicles have low resale and are in turn more expensive to own. This is probably the most important as it applies to every owner. A car with a shorter useable lifespan is going to have a significant reduction is value over the same period of ownership as one that has a longer expected lifespan.

In the end, most LR owners and most 4runner owners rarely venture off the asphalt. IIRC Subaru Outbacks are the most likely vehicle to actually go off road, but I do see quite a few Tacomas, wranglers, and 4runners. I've never seen a LR off road in the states other than a few around the slickrock area in Moab. I've passed H1's, scouts, pinzgaours, unimogs, even some rare stuff like an FJ45 Troopy in many years as the trail master of a large offroad club in Montana, but never an LR. So the only thing I can really say from personal experience is that I've never seen one break down other than in the once in Kenya where we did see a D110 billowing black smoke on the side of the road. Could be the most reliable vehicle in the world.

Yes, resale is a concern. But there's a flip side to that equation that you didn't mention. Cars with poor resale are often deeply discounted when you buy them, whereas cars that tend to have better resale aren't usually as deeply discounted during the initial sale. So it really sort of evens itself out over time. I know for a fact that my GC won't hold its value as well as my 4Runner did. But then again, I got a ton of money off MSRP on the GC. Much more so that I was able to do when I purchased the 4Runner.

 

[Jeremy556]

I'm not questioning cell phone coverage areas...I'm questioning the percentage of time that YOU spend out of range for your cell phone. Any time that you're not on a trail, then you'll obviously have other drivers pass you now and again, so even if you happen to be in an area with no cell coverage, at least you're not out all alone with nobody to help you.

I still can't figure out why you (or anyone for that matter) would put yourself in a situation where you're all alone with nobody to help. Many people have died in that situation....especially in extreme weather. Like I said, you're MUCH more likely to get yourself stuck on any serious trail than you are to have a total breakdown that strands you. You can at least admit that, no?

80%+ I work from home and live where I do for the outdoors, so my use probably isn't typical. Other than major highways, around here, you might not see another person on a road for days, or in some cases weeks.

I am always prepared to spend at least 48 hours stranded, and have sat phone and radio for emergency use. Eh, maybe. between winch, comealong, high lift, shovel, and all the other self recovery gear I carry, I have yet to get stuck for more than a couple hours. I do avoid obstacles with a decent probability of tip over.

 

[T.Rock]

80%? Really? That's insane. How far are you from a populated area? Do you have a cabin in the woods?

Edit...come on, dude. Seriously? Just for shits n' giggles, I looked up Fruita, CO on Bing maps. The town of Fruita is very densely populated. Tons of houses in just a few square miles. You have a major interstate (RT. 70) go right through the town, as well as RT. 6 and 50 running parallel as well. It's not exactly the boonies. I even see roads up in the mountains. Parts of upstate New York are far more barren!

 

[Jeremy556]

IIRC Subaru Outbacks are the most likely vehicle to actually go off road, but I do see quite a few Tacomas, wranglers, and 4runners. I've never seen a LR off road in the states other than a few around the slickrock area in Moab.

I see a few built Discos, Series/Defenders once in a great while, saw 1 late 2000s Range Rover on Black Bear Pass, and know of a guy that took a modded LR4 through P Gulch.

 

[wpen]

80%? Really? That's insane. How far are you from a populated area? Do you have a cabin in the woods?

Edit...come on, dude. Seriously? Just for shits n' giggles, I looked up Fruita, CO on Bing maps. The town of Fruita is very densely populated. Tons of houses in just a few square miles. You have a major interstate (RT. 70) go right through the town, as well as RT. 6 and 50 running parallel as well. It's not exactly the boonies. I even see roads up in the mountains. Parts of upstate New York are far more barren!

I don't thing you have ever been to Rural Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Arizona etc. Some towns don't even have paved roads. It is a very real circumstance that people travel 20-30 miles (maybe more) down a washboard road daily. If you ever get the chance, go to these places as they are often times beautiful and adventurous.

 

[Jeremy556]

80%? Really? That's insane. How far are you from a populated area? Do you have a cabin in the woods?

Edit...come on, dude. Seriously? Just for shits n' giggles, I looked up Fruita, CO on Bing maps. The town of Fruita is very densely populated. Tons of houses in just a few square miles. You have a major interstate (RT. 70) go right through the town, as well as RT. 6 and 50 running parallel as well. It's not exactly the boonies. I even see roads up in the mountains. Parts of upstate New York are far more barren!

Fruita is the closest real town. Try looking around a few miles in any direction other than southeast.

15 miles to a paved road

 

[T.Rock]

Oh, I know there's lots of open land. That's undeniable. But what town do you live in?

 

[Jeremy556]

Oh, I know there's lots of open land. That's undeniable. But what town do you live in?

Unincorporated. Those pics are driveway and back yard. My PO Box is in Fruita (USPS don't deliver), if I could fly or wanted to swim, Loma is closer.

 

[CSix]

Unincorporated. Those pics are driveway and back yard. My PO Box is in Fruita (USPS don't deliver), if I could fly or wanted to swim, Loma is closer.

That's some beautiful area. In my Jeepin days, we'd take a left off 50 from I70 and take the back way into Moab and camp in the willows by the Colorado River.

 

[Jeremy556]

That's some beautiful area. In my Jeepin days, we'd take a left off 50 from I70 and take the back way into Moab and camp in the willows by the Colorado River.

Which back way? Joe Brown Canyon from Gateway, crossing the Delores River near the Dewey bridge, or going through Nucla and La Salle? All are much more interesting than I70 and 191.