Help: Toyota WS ATF or Maxlife ATF

[blackfc3s]

I know, I know. This topic has come up some much that we are all blue in the face.

With that said, I am still having some trouble here. Been reading way too many forum posts on Toyota WS ATF Fluid versus the Valvoline Maxlife ATF fluid.

Im going to drop the pan, replace the strainer/filter, clean the magnets, and flush the whole system through the transmission cooler. I want the transmission to be 100% and we all know that means new fluid.

Any Maxlife Converts on the site that have more than 5,000 miles on the fluid? I'd like to get some real world feedback before I spend $160 on 13 quarts of WS Fluid when the Maxlife is a better fluid (and more cost effective if fluid quality is superior).

::::::Taken from bobistheoil guy post:::::

Toyota WS / JWS 3324 (manufactured by Exxon Mobil per the MSDS)
cst at 40 is unknown
cst at 100 is 7.2
VI is unknown

Ravenol WS / JWS 3324
29,9 cst
6.o5 cst
VI is unknown

Mobil Dexron VI
29.5 cst
5,83
145 VI

Mobil 3309 / JWS 3309 (should be Toyota IV)
35 cst
7.2 cst
180 VI

Motorcraft Mercon V
33,2 cst
7.5 cst
205 VI

Mobil 1 ATF
36.3 cst
7.4 cst
VI 176

General internet Toyota WS discussions mention, but do not back up with data
25 cst
6.0
Unknown VI

If my notes are correct, the Toyota WS, Toyota IV, have identical hot cst of 7,2

 

[blackfc3s]

Sorry I forgot to include the maxlife data

Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt 5.91
Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt 28.82
Viscosity Index 156
Specific Gravity @ 60°F 0.843
Pour Point, °C, -48
Brookfield Viscosity @ -40°C, cP 10200
Flash Point, COC, °C 202
ASTM 7
Color Appearance Red

 

[blackfc3s]

From also researching this appears to be another supplier of WS Fluid

mj-331 - MITASU OIL CORPORATION, JAPAN

 

[BlackWorksInc]

You need to also take into account chemical additive packages that go for each specifications. Much speculation revolves around saying that Toyota WS ATF is a Dexron VI derivative (which probably isn't far off.) But without an exact chemical make-up no one can really say whether or not any ATF besides what the manufacturer designed for the vehicle works. Simple "I did it and it hasn't blown up" testing/logic can only go so far without concrete evidence to back it up.

I've been trying to nail down the details of WS ATF myself for a while to find credible alternatives besides the usual, "our Universal ATF works! Trust us! " You need to be careful about "universal" fluids as while the base fluids may be the same, the additive packages/formulation may be different enough to cause potential issues. There's no way to qualify or quantify a determination of whether or not one fluid sepcification is better than another as it may end up being an apples to oranges to grapes argument; or it could be true, without a comprehensive understanding of the variables we're just pissing in the wind and calling it rain.

 

[blackfc3s]

You need to also take into account chemical additive packages that go for each specifications. Much speculation revolves around saying that Toyota WS ATF is a Dexron VI derivative (which probably isn't far off.) But without an exact chemical make-up no one can really say whether or not any ATF besides what the manufacturer designed for the vehicle works. Simple "I did it and it hasn't blown up" testing/logic can only go so far without concrete evidence to back it up.

I've been trying to nail down the details of WS ATF myself for a while to find credible alternatives besides the usual, "our Universal ATF works! Trust us! "

I hear ya. That what is so frustrating. You can get the right cSt and then the additives are all wrong.

My brain hurts.

 

[radlynx]

i used amsoil ATF. worked fine. been using it for more than 35000 miles. still red in color. i believe you can use what's available in your area.

 

[4RunnerFan]

Since I was just as confused as everyone else about this, I simply took our '08 T4R V-6 to the dealer. Saved 15% with Costco auto club coupon (good at participating Toyota dealers). Peace of mind; I don't worry about what was used. If ever I go to sell it, I can prove to prospective buyers that only Toyota WS fluid was used as it was specified on the work order.

 

[hearno]

4th generation 4Runner transmission failures are few and far between. It's one of the few things on mine I never really worried about. The dash cracking, the 4x4 actuator, the head gasket, the ABS pump, the calipers, and the wheel bearings were a different story. WS must be doing something right. Stick with it.

 

[gshadow325]

4th generation 4Runner transmission failures are few and far between. It's one of the few things on mine I never really worried about. The dash cracking, the 4x4 actuator, the head gasket, the ABS pump, the calipers, and the wheel bearings were a different story. WS must be doing something right. Stick with it.

i think failures for 4th gen transmissions happen at the oil cooler lines rusting out and the trans running dry. at least thats how mine failed on the previous owner.

Here is some food for thought.

I came from the Volvo world, and i still have one volvo left in the garage.

We used the toyota version of the oil because it met the 3309 standard.
Since then Valvoline Max Life ATF #324 meets and exceeds the 3309 standard and is what is used at volov dealerships now instead of their own volvo fluid $5 for valvoline vs $10 for volvo fluid vs $5 for the toyota fluid.

So i would say the Valvoline would be fine in our toyotas. I flushed out my Volvo using the #VV324 fluid and it shifted real smooth. Old volvo fluid was brown and mucky!!

 

[blackfc3s]

Gshadow, I'm with you but there is a difference and following your story - the Toyota fluid is. $10 and the max life is $5.

I have read so much about the differences and limited testimonials on maxlife. It seems to work just as well. The difference is we don't know the additive package (if any) in the WS. Not sure if it matters 100%.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Gshadow, I'm with you but there is a difference and following your story - the Toyota fluid is. $10 and the max life is $5.

I have read so much about the differences and limited testimonials on maxlife. It seems to work just as well. The difference is we don't know the additive package (if any) in the WS. Not sure if it matters 100%.

Just something to mention in regards to additives, I was talking to a friend who does a wide range of diagnostics and repairs on various vehicles and we had talked about fluids and how complicated they've become these days.

He's seen transmissions that literally shed all their clutch material due to incorrect fluid/additives used. Much in the way some Nissan transmissions apparently used water soluble clutch material glue and would fail when they got pink milkshake. For whatever reason the transmission fluid/additives used in those cases broke down the glue in the transmissions and ruined them.

 

[gshadow325]

Gshadow, I'm with you but there is a difference and following your story - the Toyota fluid is. $10 and the max life is $5.

I have read so much about the differences and limited testimonials on maxlife. It seems to work just as well. The difference is we don't know the additive package (if any) in the WS. Not sure if it matters 100%.

My wholesale cost is $5.42 on Toyota fluid and max life vv324 is $3.66

 

[blackfc3s]

My wholesale cost is $5.42 on Toyota fluid and max life vv324 is $3.66

The general 4runner doesn't get your pricing or it would be a no brainer.

My stealership wanted $8.01 per quart plus tax.

 

[gshadow325]

Even at retail pricing the valvoline is still cheaper

 

[pjbrownva]

Toyota WS ATF $8.75 qt delivered..

Even at retail pricing the valvoline is still cheaper

Didn't know where to share this, so I thought I would post to this old thread.

I got a case genuine toyota ws ATF on ebay for $8.75 a quart delivered.

I think that's a good deal.



FYI, in case anyone else is interested.

-Phil

 

[Morphyne]

If you are comparing to valvoline maxlife, that is almost double what I paid. I bought 6 gallons (24 quarts) of valvoline maxlife at Walmart for $114 out the door.

 

[fdbyrne]

My Toyota dealer sold it to me at the discounted price that they usually charge local shops that buy parts. I think I paid around $7 a quart.

I don't like my local Toyota dealer's service department at all, but their parts department rocks.

 

[pjbrownva]

If you are comparing to valvoline maxlife, that is almost double what I paid. I bought 6 gallons (24 quarts) of valvoline maxlife at Walmart for $114 out the door.

No argument about cost. I was heavily influenced by the two earlier posts from [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] in this thread. I think he's spot on. I just don't trust that these "universal fluids" can have all of the same properties of SOOO MANY other kinds of fluids. My gut tells me that there may be other properties that each transmission fluid was designed to have, and I don't believe that a universal fluid can meet all of those properties for all of those fluids. The universal fluids might be "good enough", but I don't want to settle for just that. If my tranny fluid has certain more subtle properties, such as specific anti-wear or anti-corrosion additives, I want to have THOSE properties... the ones that were designed for my tranny, instead of a more generic (read universal) fluid that the company making it says is "suitable" as a replacement for a half-dozen or more different fluids.

Just because it seems to work, doesn't make it correct. I found other threads giving a standard for WS fluid (something like JSxxxxx -- I think) and fluids that meet that standard that are sold in Europe and by Mobil in China. I would have faith in those, but they aren't available in the states, or at least not at a reasonable price.

I also saw an SAE study on tranny fluids that concluded that you're better off sticking to fluid specified by your manufacturer, instead of these universal fluids... of course the study was several years old, and also who knows if the authors had a bias going into the study. For me, there's just too much confusion and a lack info of the specific specs to make me comfortable.

The choice is personal, so everyone should go with whatever makes them happy.

For me, the tranny is too much of a more complicated big-ticket item to take the risk of possible damage, possibly faster wear, or just not getting the specific benefit of a characteristic that the engineers may have preferred for the specific transmission that they designed..

My Toyota dealer sold it to me at the discounted price that they usually charge local shops that buy parts. I think I paid around $7 a quart. ...

Hey, that's an even better deal. I just thought I'd share a decent price for the OEM stuff that anyone in the US can get -- since I found an OK deal..

-Phil

 

[Ju1cE82]

http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/maxlife_atf.pdf

...if this is not enough evidence that it meets spec than I don't know what to say.

 

[pjbrownva]

http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/maxlife_atf.pdf

...if this is not enough evidence that it meets spec than I don't know what to say.

That's exactly my point. It says suitable for "Toyota/Lexus Type!T,!T@III,!T@IV!and!WS"...



Yet Toyota says don't use WS in Type T, T III ,or T IV cars.

So I'm skeptical that one fluid can meet *All* of the properties for these types of fluids and the many others listed.

Is it close in many ways. Probably. But that doesn't mean it's the same.

I doubt it will blow up your tranny, but it's a judgement call on what you want.

For me. I'll stick with true WS rated fluid, not just "suitable" fluid. If and when there are cheaper true WS fluids available in the US, I'll buy them.

Right now the ones from Europe cost way too much in the US (they are probably imported by a person or small company and not officially distributed here), and the Mobil WS rated oil that Mobil sells in China is only available in China.

It's your call. No need to fight. But "Suitable" is not the same as saying it "is WS rated" or that it meets 100% of the WS specs. It's marketing talk for saying it's "close" or "close enough".