Higher angle inner CV joint options for 4th gens?

blackoutt

New member
Issue: 2007 V8 4x4 with 5100's set on 0 with OME 885 springs and a 1/2" top plate spacer (even with the "diff drop") I will get CV bind on the drivers side axle. The axle shaft will rub on the inset areas of the tri-lobe CV "tulip" cup. I know some people run this much lift or more on a 4wd without any issues. My short solution was to get rid of the top plate spacer essentially shortening my full droop length. Now the issue is I've got some extended travel coilovers on the way and fear is that no matter what preload I set them at, the full extended length of the shock will cause CV binding. Here's someone else's picture on the rub I'm talking about all along the inner edge of the cup:



Solution 1
that I've found is to simply make clearance where it rubs. A member on the 120 Mike07SE had his cup machined down by 1/2" off the end and a new boot groove turned into it, and reassembled with no issues. (Can I link to 120 on here? please delete if not) This seems like it might be a bad idea if I end up creating more stress on the tripod by causing too high of angle for it, cause the tripod to pull out of the cup at extreme angle, or ruin a good core if it leads to failure and I need to get a CVJ reman.
A subset to this solution is to see if I can shift my front dif towards the passenger side to "lengthen" the driver side axle, pulling the tripod further out of the cup and allowing it clear better. Other ways to slightly lengthen the axle are to pull SPC UCA camber adjustment out and LCA caster/camber adjusters all the way out.

his story: CV Joint Failure? - Page 2 - Toyota 120 Platforms Forum

where he posted again trying to help someone else: Toyota 120 Platforms Forum - View Single Post - New CV's installed. Heavy vibration under hard accel

Solution 2 is to find a way to convert the crappy low angle tri-lobe to the "930" or "porsche" style CV joint that is used on the outer CV on our axles, as well as the inner CV on gen 1 tundra axles. It looks like Gen 1 Tacoma guys use the gen 1 Tundra axles as a straight bolt in with total chaos long travel kits which works great with the wider track. Both styles of carriers are held onto the shaft with a circlip so maybe I can get a 930 style inner joint from a different vehicle with similar splines and convert. This sounds like a fairly difficult measurement/trial/error/lots of parts swapping to figure out but would be an awesome upgrade.

CVjointtypes_zpsc5f782f6.jpg~original

33700720019_large.jpg~original


Solution 3 is that someone joins this thread with another great idea, or other great Toyota axle info to fuel my search and we can lay this one to rest with a simple solution and great travel for all!
 
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Did some more research on shock length and think I might be alright

Fox 883-06-130 extended travel:
(same for non reservoir and non DSC)
Extended length 22.38 in.
Collapsed length 17.09 in.
Stroke 5.29 in.

Bilstein 5100 front shock part number 24-239370:
Extended length 22.56 in.
Collapsed length 17.03 in.
Stroke 5.53 in.

Difference between the two:
Extended length Fox is 0.18 in. shorter
Collapsed length Fox is 0.06 in. longer
Stroke Fox is 0.24 in. shorter




For comparison,

Fox 883-06-111 standard travel (same for non reservoir and non DSC)
Extended length 21.88 in.
Collapsed length 17.090 in.
Stroke 4.79 in.

Icon 58640 standard travel (same for remote res and CDCV)
Extended length 22.17 in.
Collapsed length 17.41 in.
Stroke 4.76 in.

Icon 58645 extended travel (same for remote res and CDCV)
Extended length 22.57 in.
Collapsed length 17.41 in.
Stroke 5.16 in.

Bilstein 6112 Part No. 46-227287:

Extended length 22.21 in.
Collapsed length 17.69 in.
Stroke 4.52 in.


This leads me to believe that the 5100 is actually an "extended travel" shock for our application, and should probably only be used with aftermarket upper control arms.
 
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I'm at 4" with spacers and stock frt shocks. I plan on going to toytec later. Haven't heard of others having this problem. I don't think that just uca's will change cv angles enough to fix what you're talking about.
I know Troy McClure is having axles custom built, but he's running a long travel setup.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
c9fc49a180b7b103f47ae7ce158d3116.jpg


Well I confirmed that the extended travel foxes are slightly shorter than 5100s at full extended length. This meant no CV bind for me so I'm ending my search. To anyone else looking at this thread in the future, more than "x" inches of lift is certainly possible (3 in my case) but at some point your down travel cannot go any further without binding the CV at full droop (shock length plus top out spacers) and you can only gain more lift from preloading the springs and putting your static height closer to the top end of your shocks stroke.

Also for anyone really needing more CV angle, I received a response from Steve at CVJ asking many good questions back to me but ultimately agreeing that for the right price he could make anything happen for me. Great option there if necessary.
 
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I have a feeling the information in this thread is going to become relevant to me one day...
 
Did some more research on shock length and think I might be alright

Fox "extended travel" shock part number 883-06-130:

Extended 22.38 in.
Collapsed 17.09 in.
Stroke 5.29 in.

Bilstein 5100 front shock part number 24-239370:
Extended 22.56 in.
Collapsed 17.03 in.
Stroke 5.53 in.

Difference between the two:
Extended Fox is 0.18 in. shorter
Collapsed Fox is 0.06 in. longer
Stroke Fox is 0.24 in. shorter

For a comparison, Fox's non-extended travel version part number 883-06-111:
Extended 21.88 in.
Collapsed 17.090 in.
Stroke 4.79 in.

This leads me to believe that the 5100 is actually a "long travel" shock for our application, and should probably only be used with aftermarket upper control arms.
whoa whoa whoa!! Hold the freaking phones!! I have been trying to find those numbers for the 5100's for weeks! sheesh. Can you find the numbers for king, radflo too maybe? Long travel coilovers?
Next thought, as much as I've come to hate my Bilsteins, I'm impressed with the travel compared to stock and find it really weird that they have more travel than an extended travel shock. Will be interesting to find out long travel numbers.
Although I realize the travel is multiplied at the wheel because of shock location and all that, I'm surprised at how little there really is. I mean 4" of travel stock seems like nothing to me.
 
I've also had thoughts of finding a wrecked 07+ tundra and robbing the front and rear difs. Then, fab the front to fit under my 4runner, taking the tundra knuckle and cutting it to make it the correct length and use the bigger, stronger tundra knuckle, hub and bearing assembly, cv axles, and center section. The tundra is wider, so find out how much and make wider control arms like [MENTION=95421]Troymclure[/MENTION] did with his stock arms and then I have all the stronger axle components up front. (Might be easier to modify mounts to make the tundra control arms bolt up to my 4runner, not sure)
Then I would weld link mounts to the tundra rear axle and then front and rear would be same width, as well as drastically stronger, and if I remember correctly tundra uses same abs so you could retain atrac and abs even.
To frankenstein?? lol
 
whoa whoa whoa!! Hold the freaking phones!! I have been trying to find those numbers for the 5100's for weeks! sheesh. Can you find the numbers for king, radflo too maybe? Long travel coilovers?
Next thought, as much as I've come to hate my Bilsteins, I'm impressed with the travel compared to stock and find it really weird that they have more travel than an extended travel shock. Will be interesting to find out long travel numbers.
Although I realize the travel is multiplied at the wheel because of shock location and all that, I'm surprised at how little there really is. I mean 4" of travel stock seems like nothing to me.

Well after a short test drive (didn't get a spanner in the box to crank the fox's up so I couldn't really turn lol :violin:) I can assure you that having the largest travel number doesn't mean sh*t for ride quality unless you can control it. 5" of travel would be nice if it was usable but in the case of 885's on 5100's I'm sure I rode near the top of the stroke all the time, great for interstate and driving it like a sports car but poor for fast offroad or full flexing.

A tip to looking for shock lengths is searching "(manufacturer part number here) collapsed length" and they normally give all 3 measurements on some websites, unless they are Icon then they don't tell you anything. Just another reason to boycott their products. Shim stacks being proprietary cool but spring rates and shock length? Feed me shock part numbers for direct swap Radflo and King and I can help look for length and add to the original post above.
 
I've also had thoughts of finding a wrecked 07+ tundra and robbing the front and rear difs. Then, fab the front to fit under my 4runner, taking the tundra knuckle and cutting it to make it the correct length and use the bigger, stronger tundra knuckle, hub and bearing assembly, cv axles, and center section. The tundra is wider, so find out how much and make wider control arms like [MENTION=95421]Troymclure[/MENTION] did with his stock arms and then I have all the stronger axle components up front. (Might be easier to modify mounts to make the tundra control arms bolt up to my 4runner, not sure)
Then I would weld link mounts to the tundra rear axle and then front and rear would be same width, as well as drastically stronger, and if I remember correctly tundra uses same abs so you could retain atrac and abs even.
To frankenstein?? lol

Or sell the T4R and buy a Tundra? lol 5.7, bed to haul stuff, taking up two parking spots....
 
Well after a short test drive (didn't get a spanner in the box to crank the fox's up so I couldn't really turn lol :violin:) I can assure you that having the largest travel number doesn't mean sh*t for ride quality unless you can control it. 5" of travel would be nice if it was usable but in the case of 885's on 5100's I'm sure I rode near the top of the stroke all the time, great for interstate and driving it like a sports car but poor for fast offroad or full flexing.

A tip to looking for shock lengths is searching "(manufacturer part number here) collapsed length" and they normally give all 3 measurements on some websites, unless they are Icon then they don't tell you anything. Just another reason to boycott their products. Shim stacks being proprietary cool but spring rates and shock length? Feed me shock part numbers for direct swap Radflo and King and I can help look for length and add to the original post above.
Ya I'm in same boat. I have 4 inches of shock shaft showing... Lol
I'll look for numbers later today. Have a meeting.
Or sell the T4R and buy a Tundra? lol 5.7, bed to haul stuff, taking up two parking spots....
Or... Put the full Tundra drive train in the 4runner... Supercharged!! Screw the truck bed!

Sent from the drivers seat of my 05 4runner.
 
not sure of actual benefits, but the 5th gen T4R/'10+FJC have an upgraded CV that was apparently built a with a little more travel and HD?

Anyone know any actual benefit?
 
not sure of actual benefits, but the 5th gen T4R/'10+FJC have an upgraded CV that was apparently built a with a little more travel and HD?

Anyone know any actual benefit?
Interesting.

Sent from the drivers seat of my 05 4runner.
 
The issue is getting enough angle out of the cv for anyone reading. We don't need them stronger because it is MUCH cheaper for a CV than the clamshell! If you beef up the CV to much then the weak link is your front dif, which is very expensive! Easier and cheaper to just replace a CV. Just a public friendly FYI. Lol

Sent from the drivers seat of my 05 4runner.
 
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The issue is angle for anyone reading. We don't need them stronger because it is MUCH cheaper for a CV than the clamshell! Just a public friendly FYI. Lol

Sent from the drivers seat of my 05 4runner.

my understanding is Toyota upgraded the newer CV to handle higher angles. As well as being stronger. Could be just the boot that was upgraded.

Ill have to hunt down that info i read.
 
my understanding is Toyota upgraded the newer CV to handle higher angles. As well as being stronger. Could be just the boot that was upgraded.

Ill have to hunt down that info i read.
Any updates on this?

Sent from the drivers seat of my 05 4runner.
 
ive never had an issue with OEM CV joints not having enough angle. i did blow up 2 new manufacture aftermarket CVs that are that crappy long round casing.
running my BOSS coilovers at 1.5" with a 2" spacer on top gives me no issues. i managed to get ~10 inches of total travel out of my front end with my limiting factor being my UCA hitting my coil. i do need to put longer boots on mine though since ive finally chewed through the crappy short neoprene boots that came on them. after 2 years.
 
ive never had an issue with OEM CV joints not having enough angle. i did blow up 2 new manufacture aftermarket CVs that are that crappy long round casing.
running my BOSS coilovers at 1.5" with a 2" spacer on top gives me no issues. i managed to get ~10 inches of total travel out of my front end with my limiting factor being my UCA hitting my coil. i do need to put longer boots on mine though since ive finally chewed through the crappy short neoprene boots that came on them. after 2 years.
I've been good all things considered. Cordone HD on the passenger side has been there 3 years and is just now splitting the boots. The first one I out on the drivers side failed climbing a hill, broke the shaft itself.. Whoops lol! Put an Duralast in and been great since. Always think about upgrades though!

Sent from the drivers seat of my 05 4runner.
 
Issue: 2007 V8 4x4 with 5100's set on 0 with OME 885 springs and a 1/2" top plate spacer (even with the "diff drop") I will get CV bind on the drivers side axle. The axle shaft will rub on the inset areas of the tri-lobe CV "tulip" cup. I know some people run this much lift or more on a 4wd without any issues. My short solution was to get rid of the top plate spacer essentially shortening my full droop length. Now the issue is I've got some extended travel coilovers on the way and fear is that no matter what preload I set them at, the full extended length of the shock will cause CV binding. Here's someone else's picture on the rub I'm talking about all along the inner edge of the cup:



Solution 1
that I've found is to simply make clearance where it rubs. A member on the 120 Mike07SE had his cup machined down by 1/2" off the end and a new boot groove turned into it, and reassembled with no issues. (Can I link to 120 on here? please delete if not) This seems like it might be a bad idea if I end up creating more stress on the tripod by causing too high of angle for it, cause the tripod to pull out of the cup at extreme angle, or ruin a good core if it leads to failure and I need to get a CVJ reman.
A subset to this solution is to see if I can shift my front dif towards the passenger side to "lengthen" the driver side axle, pulling the tripod further out of the cup and allowing it clear better. Other ways to slightly lengthen the axle are to pull SPC UCA camber adjustment out and LCA caster/camber adjusters all the way out.

his story: CV Joint Failure? - Page 2 - Toyota 120 Platforms Forum

where he posted again trying to help someone else: Toyota 120 Platforms Forum - View Single Post - New CV's installed. Heavy vibration under hard accel

Solution 2 is to find a way to convert the crappy low angle tri-lobe to the "930" or "porsche" style CV joint that is used on the outer CV on our axles, as well as the inner CV on gen 1 tundra axles. It looks like Gen 1 Tacoma guys use the gen 1 Tundra axles as a straight bolt in with total chaos long travel kits which works great with the wider track. Both styles of carriers are held onto the shaft with a circlip so maybe I can get a 930 style inner joint from a different vehicle with similar splines and convert. This sounds like a fairly difficult measurement/trial/error/lots of parts swapping to figure out but would be an awesome upgrade.

CVjointtypes_zpsc5f782f6.jpg~original

33700720019_large.jpg~original


Solution 3 is that someone joins this thread with another great idea, or other great Toyota axle info to fuel my search and we can lay this one to rest with a simple solution and great travel for all!

Just found this thread and only wanted to chime in on Solution 1 as I was the one who originally did this over 3 years ago. So far I have not had any further issues to date. No binds. No leaks. And no failures. Modded and reassembled on the bench, the axle would bind again before the tripod would be able to slip out of the joint.

I think this would be a last resort route for people that can't solve binding issues with their lift - or - a way to go if people are trying to gain more down travel with whatever setup they may be running (i.e. - spacer on a 5100, etc.). I don't think you can say strength and rigidity in this method compromises the assembly much. The inner cup is just as strong as before and the tripod can handle the stress. Ultimate failure will still be the axle snapping in the end as they usually are now when stock.
 

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