Horrible News from Toyota Owners site

T

TRDFerguson

New member
I usually try to avoid calling calling to everyones attention that I'm a COMPLETE IDIOT, but this is an attempt to keep this from happening.

DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE BUYING!

I put my myself in a little bit of a pinch after selling my tacoma, and I (much too quickly) bought a 1998 4runner sr5 that was in good shape with 102k miles. 5 weeks later i was replacing the passenger side cylinder head ($1600) due to a failed time-cert in the #3 cylinder.

Now i put the truck's VIN into the Toyota Owner's site and what do i find?

My 4runner really has over 200k miles and has had repeated CEL/Spark plug issues since 2007, with 4 visits to the dealer in 4 years to replace "cylinder 3 spark plug" and " oil soaked coil pack" etc.

I know i made a huge mistake not doing my research and in a way i deserve it, but is there anything i can try to get the seller for? odometer fraud at least?

Thanks for any input.
 
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Check your states Lemon Laws...a seller cannot knowingly sell you a vehicle that has had damage or different odometer readings in most states. What did the title say? If the title doesn't match the odo, you'd have some ground to stand on.
 
Get as much info together as you can on your own, and go talk to a lawyer. Does the Toyota site list the owner at the time of all the previous work?
 
VIN checks and Carfaxes (or like services) are your friend! I don't buy a vehichle without one. Almost bought two 4Runners previously, but after a Carfax showed possible mileage roll-backs or other huge issues (salvage title, etc) that I didn't want to deal with, I didn't continue with the purchase.

Good luck with your truck, and sorry this happened to you!
 
Legal Issues

I'm a CA attorney, but without any lemon law knowledge, and I'm way south, in Long Beach. I also don't really know much about small claims court cases. I know that the following would be expensive if you hire a lawyer to do it, but just in case any of this helps:

If you file a lawsuit, you have the right to subpoena certain records -- there are rules we have to follow, but you have the right to discover the facts, so you can prove them in court.

You've already learned that the car has been serviced several times and you know when and where. You can subpoena those records and the invoices will tell you what the mileage was and who owned the car.

Good luck. Thanks for reminding us to be careful.

Paul
 
Odometer fraud is usually both a State and Federal issue. Huge.

I say small claims court and don't hire a lawyer. No need. Small claims court does not allow lawyers for either party, and as a result, the presiding judge and the court in general tends to be much more fleixible and will help you along.

A small claims court can pull records, but you can get them yourself. Dealers, Toyota website. The burden of proof is much lower in civil court and you need to show that he lied to you about the mileage. Showing several documents that show a 200k plus mileage will suffice. All registration/emissions info is public record and you can pay the county clerk a fee to pull it. Use carfax to find out where it has been registered.

Mendocino County Small Claims Court
http://www.monocourt.org/pdfs/ReepSmClmInfoSheet1-1-06.pdf

Looks like in Cali the limit is somewhere between 7500 and 10k.

Also. Contact your local Police, as odometer fraud is not a lemon law, it is a fraud and is against the law. You can try to contact the previous owner and give him 1 week to return all your money, plus cost of repairs (he won't do it), then you go to the police and file a civil suit in small claims.

This is the cheapest way to go.
 
DC runner said:
Odometer fraud is usually both a State and Federal issue. Huge.

I say small claims court and don't hire a lawyer. No need. Small claims court does not allow lawyers for either party, and as a result, the presiding judge and the court in general tends to be much more fleixible and will help you along.

A small claims court can pull records, but you can get them yourself. Dealers, Toyota website. The burden of proof is much lower in civil court and you need to show that he lied to you about the mileage. Showing several documents that show a 200k plus mileage will suffice. All registration/emissions info is public record and you can pay the county clerk a fee to pull it. Use carfax to find out where it has been registered.

Mendocino County Small Claims Court
http://www.monocourt.org/pdfs/ReepSmClmInfoSheet1-1-06.pdf

Looks like in Cali the limit is somewhere between 7500 and 10k.

Also. Contact your local Police, as odometer fraud is not a lemon law, it is a fraud and is against the law. You can try to contact the previous owner and give him 1 week to return all your money, plus cost of repairs (he won't do it), then you go to the police and file a civil suit in small claims.

This is the cheapest way to go.
Click to expand...

I was just abt to post most of what was said here after thinking more abt it.... getting a lawyer would be expensive and it would definitely be better suited for small claims. Most small claims have a Max of 5000 but if its 7500 or more that's even better. It would be a long shot but u might be able to get money back for the repair also.
 
Did you buy it from a dealer or a private seller?

In PA, if it was a dealer, you're entitled to three times what you paid for it AND you get to keep the car.
 
First, find proof. Somewhere, somehow. Did you fill in mileage on the bill of sale? Can you take a photo of the current OD reading? Then, run carfax and pull all those records. Next, print the info from the Toyota website. Print everything.

Toyota's site will sometimes show you what dealer did work. Contact them, tell them what is up. Nothing on them, but you suspect the Previous OP of OD fraud. Have them fax you any work orders/car info that shows dates and mileage. Most dealerships log milage of the vehicle brought in.


This in in hand, you contact the Previous owner and you tell him what is up. Tell him you suspect him of OD fraud and you would like to handle this in a gentleman manner.

Allow him the ability to explain. For ALL YOU KNOW, HE MAY HAVE BOUGHT IT POST fraud. He may not even be aware. Carfax should give you an idea of how many owners.

If he owned it at the time of Fraud, inform him you intend to go to the police and report him for fraud and SUE him in Civil Court.

Do not meet him alone and keep a record of all contact. Email/Recording.

If you record, find out the laws in your state. Some states are only 1 party notification (means you can record people) and some states are 2 party (means you have to disclose you are recording for it to be legal). If you are a two party state, start the recorder and inform him you are recording the conversation.

Never show him originals, and document EVERYTHING. It is NOT illegal to try and get restitution outside the courts. Give him 1 chance and if he fails or starts to fool around, you go to the police.
 
check the odometer disclosures during title transfers. If he bought it and sold it with less miles, pretty clear documented odo fraud.

Should be easy to get your money back.
 
DC runner said:
Allow him the ability to explain. For ALL YOU KNOW, HE MAY HAVE BOUGHT IT POST fraud. He may not even be aware. Carfax should give you an idea of how many owners.
Click to expand...

i thought it was a possibility that he bought it after the "work" was done to the odometer, but the "Free VIN Checks" thread that just popped up:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/117089-free-vin-checks.html

showed me that he smogged it on 11/28/11 at 201,785 miles. I bought it 12/4/11 with 102,089 miles!!!! So he obviously he committed the fraud just days before selling it to me. And, its easy to imagine that all they had to do was turn the 2 back to a 1. Not to mention the ad said it had 98k on it, and when i arrived it had 102k on the odometer. Fishy.... dont know how i went through with buying this thing.

I think the small claims court is definitely my best bet, the cost of legal council would eat a huge chunk out of any money i could get back.
 
Is there a VIN sticker on the ECU, and if so, can you check to see it it matches that of the truck? I guess a dealer has to have reprogramming capability to restore the odometer in the case of a faulty ECU replacement. Outside of a dealer mech being in on the fraud, the original owner could've found a low mileage ECU from a wrecked truck. I don't know if the ECU and gauge cluster would have to "match" or not ....
 
Hold on.

Pay for the full vin check to see all the records. That type of error is easily accountable when the tech misreads and mis types.

She sees an older truck and reads a 2 instead of a 1. You need to see the whole history. You can't prove malice or intent with 1 piece of evidence. When you take your truck to be smogged, they look quickly at the milage. Easy, after a long day, to get it wrong.

This is why you need to call dealers and pull the FULL VIN report. They will show you each registration and smog event and should show you milage. If it goes like this:

2/2002 - Registration 70k
3/2003- Smog 72k
And so forth, until last year where it says
Smog 98k

Then you know it probably actually has ONLY 100k.

IF however, you see :
2/2003 - 170k


Then you know something is up.

Before you sue this guy, get your facts straight. Find MORE than 1 record.

If you can, post up the VIN pull and the a screenshot of the Toyota website so we can see. We can help you figure it out.


Also. My understanding is, once you remove the original ECU and you start doing things like that, you must disclose. It is totally legal to repair a car's ECU, which may impact the Odometer. You have to tell PEOPLE this!



Try that and look at your paperwork. You didn't respond to my questions I asked.

I understand you are upset, but if you give us more info, then we can help you more. I would like to know, did you sign a bill of sale, or other document, and fill in mileage???

Some states do not require a mileage disclaimer after X years. You should of done something likes this:
http://www.tn.gov/revenue/forms/titlereg/f1317001Fill-in.pdf

This is from my state, TN, but most states have similar requirements as I stated earlier, Odometer fraud is both a Federal and State law. Even Title's have a box to check.

Before you go out and embarrass yourself or someone else.. lets get all the facts.
 
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Before we hang the previous owner - take into account the following possibility. All I saw in this thread was one document that showed 200K before it was sold with 100K. Take into account the possibility that someone fat fingered a "2" instead of a "1". Also for some reason I thought the 3Gen odometers were pretty much tamper proof - however I guess you could buy an different odometer

edit - after some searching I am changing my opinion on tamper proof but I still suggest that it may be a clerical error
 
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This is criminal stuff if you can find someone to prosecute it.

I sold my Corvette in '74 to a used car lot who gave me a bad check.
When I went back and got the car it had been rolled back. Two days it was there !
 
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