Icon, Fox, King...

[Inv4drZm]

Yes, external reservoirs do "just house extra oil" and they are not more complicated than that. You're talking about dampening adjusters, which are an added feature that can be built into them at extra cost. It'd be correct to say that external reservoirs enable you to add dampening adjusters, but it has nothing to do with the reservoir itself.

There's pro's and con's to everything. If you really need the increased cooling capacity an argument could be made for finely-tuned external reservoir coilovers* without adjusters due to the increased heat generated by that second shim stack. Again it's application specific.

What I'd like to to know is why performance street coilovers are built with adjusters in either the base or top of the shock itself, but I'd wager it has something to do with the heat generated in offroad race conditions and overall size and space limitations.

They all have pistons in them, even the non-adjustable reservoirs.

Cooling capacity is increased not only because of the increased oil volume but also due to the increased surface area the oil is in contact with inside the body and remote reservoir.

As for ride or tunability I've found online that by having more oil in the body of the shock, it leads to less oil cavitation. The gas chamber could be larger in the resi but I'm not sure what benefit that is.

https://www.race-dezert.com/forum/threads/how-does-a-remote-reservoir-shock-work.83993/

It must not be possible to add an adjuster to a non-resi shock because there is no orifice for the oil to flow through.

 

[honda250xtitan]

Thanks Bumbo and Honda. Good feedback.

Yes, if you're buying 2 1/2" shocks the remote reservoirs are only a little more money (20-25%) for a great added benefit and dial-in adjust-ability.

As for the spacers, a friend of mine has 2" spacers on his Lexus GX 470 and he has much more ground clearance than I do with my stock 4Runner, and we all know it is the same frame and suspension. I want more than a lift on the same Toyota shocks so I'm upgrading to the ICON Stage 7.

except his suspension geometry is already pushed down and in the lower range of its capacity. Bushings bind, ball joints bind, similar to guys who run 3" of preload on their 1500$ ICONS just because they want dat stance lyfe. Not to mention losing droop travel.

 

[DZNUTS]

Coming from the world of cars and road courses, I’ve been learning more about off road and lift setups.

I always found it odd to preload your springs in order to get lift as that dramatically effects ride quality and performance. And yet, the vast majority of people run with preloaded springs.

I am planning on replacing my 5100s and stock FJ springs sometime in the near future, in order to get away from preloaded springs (for achieving lift) and to pick up a much beefier piston.

I would love to look into shocks with adjustable independent compression and rebound. On one of my previous toys, I ran independent low speed and high speed adjustable compression and rebound. Just can’t beat it, if you have the knowledge to properly tune them


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[JSparky]

They all have pistons in them, even the non-adjustable reservoirs.

Cooling capacity is increased not only because of the increased oil volume but also due to the increased surface area the oil is in contact with inside the body and remote reservoir.

As for ride or tunability I've found online that by having more oil in the body of the shock, it leads to less oil cavitation. The gas chamber could be larger in the resi but I'm not sure what benefit that is.

https://www.race-dezert.com/forum/threads/how-does-a-remote-reservoir-shock-work.83993/

It must not be possible to add an adjuster to a non-resi shock because there is no orifice for the oil to flow through.

I never said they didn't have pistons in them, I made that comment because it sounded like you thought all reservoirs had a dampening adjustment function.. perhaps we're reading into our statements a bit too much!

You're right about the surface area and cooling. My point there was that the way most coilover reservoir dampening adjusters function is by metering oil flow from the reservoir. This can reduce the impact of a reservoir on cooling the oil that's in a shock. When designed properly, non-adjuster reservoirs don't limit oil flow in the way that adjusters do. I've heard debates on both sides of the fence there, but that's where it originated. Hope that clears things up.

 

[DesertCanyons]

Remote reservoir explained

...

As for ride or tunability ...

https://www.race-dezert.com/forum/threads/how-does-a-remote-reservoir-shock-work.83993/

It must not be possible to add an adjuster to a non-resi shock because there is no orifice for the oil to flow through.

That link is a good short read. Here is the best comment I read there:

"The interior of a shock is a closed system, but as the shaft goes in and out of the body, the available volume in the system changes because the shaft takes up some space.

Since the oil is incompressible, you have to have some gas in there to account for this change in volume. Separating the gas from the oil with a sliding piston keeps the oil from frothing up. But it also makes the shock body very long unless you 'remote' the part that has the piston in it. That's the whole purpose of the reservoir. The amount of oil that flows into the reservoir as the shock compresses is the exact volume of the shock shaft that has entered the damper body. It doesn't matter if you have 100 or 1000 psi of nitrogen preload.

... the extra fluid and cooling ability are an ancillary benefit."

 

[wfo9]

That link is a good short read. Here is the best comment I read there:

"The interior of a shock is a closed system, but as the shaft goes in and out of the body, the available volume in the system changes because the shaft takes up some space.
Since the oil is incompressible, you have to have some gas in there to account for this change in volume. Separating the gas from the oil with a sliding piston keeps the oil from frothing up. But it also makes the shock body very long unless you 'remote' the part that has the piston in it. That's the whole purpose of the reservoir. The amount of oil that flows into the reservoir as the shock compresses is the exact volume of the shock shaft that has entered the damper body. It doesn't matter if you have 100 or 1000 psi of nitrogen preload.

... the extra fluid and cooling ability are an ancillary benefit."

Right, but you do understand that in our application it makes no difference as there is no more room for the suspension to compress/extend beyond what the shock body naturally supports. The limits are outside of the shock and in the links and geometry.


Maybe with Long travel in the front and change in motion ratio, but even then.. I don't think a remote would be required to get the required shaft travel. It's mostly for more oil volume....

In all the rock crawler builds I've been around.. I never see remotes. But many of them use emulsion and air shocks also. But travel is what they are all about and some them do use an IFP monotubes. I would be curious to see how much more travel could be had in a given body. I bet it is pretty minimal. The gas compresses to very little physical space.

As a data point. My crawler with 14" of travel in each shock 2" body.. There is 4" of shock body beyond 14". Some of that is the piston and bump... So maybe they could go to 16"-17" with a remote.. But much easier just to place the shock mounting point up higher in that application.

 

[DesertCanyons]

Long Travel limitations

Right, but you do understand ...

As a data point. My crawler with 14" of travel in each shock 2" body.. There is 4" of shock body beyond 14". Some of that is the piston and bump... So maybe they could go to 16"-17" with a remote.. But much easier just to place the shock mounting point up higher in that application.

Hi [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] not sure what you're saying here. I think a couple of words are missing or it's a typo. What's the total travel distance you have? And we know the wheel travel is about twice whatever the shock travel is.

Yes, the 4Runner has travel limited by the UCA, LCA and the size of the wheel wells. Maybe that's a reason for the Dirt King LCA. They have one that also fits KDSS. I think the KDSS limits travel too. I was thinking about creating an anti-sway bar disconnect for the KDSS, but it's complicated by the front piston and maybe the rear piston too. Hmmm, anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[wfo9]

Hi [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] not sure what you're saying here. I think a couple of words are missing or it's a typo. What's the total travel distance you have? And we know the wheel travel is about twice whatever the shock travel is.

Yes, the 4Runner has travel limited by the UCA, LCA and the size of the wheel wells. Maybe that's a reason for the Dirt King LCA. They have one that also fits KDSS. I think the KDSS limits travel too. I was thinking about creating an anti-sway bar disconnect for the KDSS, but it's complicated by the front piston and maybe the rear piston too. Hmmm, anyone have thoughts on this?

I don't think I made a typo... but I'm sure I'm not explaining it well.

What I'm saying is that no matter how much travel you put into the shock up front..It is limited by CVs, UCA, and tie rod angle (even if you remove the swaybar). The only way to increase the travel beyond what extended travel coil overs give is to put on long travel LCA/UCA. This also changes up the motion ratio since the lower shock mount moves outboard (requiring a longer stroke coil over 7" vs something like 4" on a std setup). LT coil overs for a 4runner and std coil overs are totally different.

Shock travel to wheel travel ratio is different on every truck depending on suspension design and motion ratio. As an example, my rock crawler has the shocks and springs on the rear axle mounted several inches inboard of their normal location. This allows for more articulated wheel travel. However, it does not impact that vertical travel (which is still 14"). But that is solid axles... IFS only has vertical travel, but a similar principal applies, move the shock inboard and get more wheel travel to shaft movement. Downside is you sacrifice dampening control and that is the reason LT kits push the shock out and change up the motion ratio to be closer to 1:1.

The reason I brought up my shocks on my crawler was to point out how much of the shock body length is dedicated to the IFP and air chamber. 14" of travel. Shock body is 18". So 4" of extra length beyond the travel. But I know some of that is the piston... My point was that you only get an extra 2-3" of packaging by moving the air chamber out of the body in that application which is 14" of travel. In the 4runner std coil overs it would save maybe and inch which is not needed... thus the reason there is no travel benefit to remotes.

 

[LawnDart]

Still waiting for someone to 4-link the rear and build a whoops scissors front.

 

[DesertCanyons]

LT coilovers and LCA

Thanks wfo9. I think I get it now.

Dirt King makes a long travel LCA that does not push the ball joint and wheel out. Not sure how they achieve LT without moving the wheel?
I believe it's Total Chaos that makes a LT LCA that does push the wheel out either 2" or 3.5". I don't really want to go wider. My garage is narrow. It changes the tracking location beyond the back tires on any obstacles you encounter off road.

 

[Bumbo]

Its hard to imagine going long travel without increasing the track of the vehical... Perhaps its not true long travel...

The CV angles would look pretty wild without pushing it out, and depending on the design of the arms and shock length, you are probably giving something up.

LT isn't a light modification... it takes some serious commitment, sacrifice, and money to do it right. You have pretty much made an application decision at that point with how that truck is going to be used.

The main selling points for LT:
1: Increased track
2: Increased travel
3: 2 Shocks per wheel, allowing a secondary internal bypass which gives you a massive amount of tuning capability. Enough so that you can remove a sway bar and not miss it at all.

 

[Jetboy]

Thanks wfo9. I think I get it now.

Dirt King makes a long travel LCA that does not push the ball joint and wheel out. Not sure how they achieve LT without moving the wheel?
I believe it's Total Chaos that makes a LT LCA that does push the wheel out either 2" or 3.5". I don't really want to go wider. My garage is narrow. It changes the tracking location beyond the back tires on any obstacles you encounter off road.

I have just the solution for you. It's... um.. creative if nothing else. It's based on Toyota components in the differential too. Also - I think someone should let them in on the secret of antisquat.

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qVvhk_XAWyk" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Bumbo]

That looks pretty wild... its almost like Twin I-Beam had a baby with IFS.

 

[wfo9]

Thanks wfo9. I think I get it now.

Dirt King makes a long travel LCA that does not push the ball joint and wheel out. Not sure how they achieve LT without moving the wheel?
I believe it's Total Chaos that makes a LT LCA that does push the wheel out either 2" or 3.5". I don't really want to go wider. My garage is narrow. It changes the tracking location beyond the back tires on any obstacles you encounter off road.

You must be misunderstanding.. The dirt King long travel LCA is + 3.5" wide on each side.

Track width is key to all aspects of off-road performance and more is almost always better in terms of stability. The 4runner suffers greatly from a poor track width to body width ratio. That is why jeeps are so good in terms of avoiding body damage.

Ideally you could just narrow the body and frame... but that obviously can't happen.

it's fine to have the front a little wider as it helps in many situations allowing the rear to follow in tight trail turns. Just have to be careful about how the rear follows and have good kick outs on the sliders.

 

[honda250xtitan]

Hi [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] not sure what you're saying here. I think a couple of words are missing or it's a typo. What's the total travel distance you have? And we know the wheel travel is about twice whatever the shock travel is.

Yes, the 4Runner has travel limited by the UCA, LCA and the size of the wheel wells. Maybe that's a reason for the Dirt King LCA. They have one that also fits KDSS. I think the KDSS limits travel too. I was thinking about creating an anti-sway bar disconnect for the KDSS, but it's complicated by the front piston and maybe the rear piston too. Hmmm, anyone have thoughts on this?

you're thinking of their Performance LCA. i ran their titan LCA on my titan, its OEM width, stronger, tabbed for limit strap, plate for bump stop, shock mount is moved for better clearance from the axle, etc. Its glorious. but its not bypass shock capable....i think they'll come out with one tabbed for bypasses....

here is their LT kit, 3.5" wider per side. Toyota 4Runner / FJ Cruiser Long Travel Kit

they do killer work btw. 10/10 recommend.

the KDSS gets more travel then the normal sway bar set up IIRC. Quick disconnect won't work, you'll have a hell of a time reconnecting it. You can pull a fuse and the system will turn off though. One guy did it some time ago, said it worked fine for offroading. Only issue was "KDSS" light comes on obviously.

 

[wfo9]

Jut FYI, two different scenarios with KDSS. Crawling/trail use it almost articulates as good as no swaybars..

Going over 12mph it stiffens up and increases dynamic spring rates across each axle... limiting compliance with the terrain and transferring a lot of chatter to the occupants.

I would be a little concerned about unplugging it and leaving the KDSS sway-bars connected. Those cylinders will most likely not last long moving fast. Just like the shocks.. they need to be designed for that and they are clearly not.

 

[honda250xtitan]

Jut FYI, two different scenarios with KDSS. Crawling/trail use it almost articulates as good as no swaybars..

Going over 12mph it stiffens up and increases dynamic spring rates across each axle... limiting compliance with the terrain and transferring a lot of chatter to the occupants.

I would be a little concerned about unplugging it and leaving the KDSS sway-bars connected. Those cylinders will most likely not last long moving fast. Just like the shocks.. they need to be designed for that and they are clearly not.

I was hoping that guy had came back around to report if it caused any issues.

Just add some remote resis to the cylinders. Finned of course, with the adjustment clickers obviously....:usa2::usa2::usa2:

 

[Jetboy]

KDSS on the LC200 is always "on". I have no reason to think that the 4runner would have any issues with the shutter valves being open all the time as well.

They do something different from no sway bars in the rocks - and it's better. They actively center the body between the articulation of the two axles. The idea is the dream concept of rock crawlers. The execution in the 4runner/150 leaves something to be desired though. The LC200 version has about double the suspension travel. I'd much rather see it be totally symmetrical side to side and frond to back.

 

[DesertCanyons]

Performance LCA

you're thinking of their Performance LCA. ... but its not bypass shock capable
here is their LT kit, 3.5" wider per side. Toyota 4Runner / FJ Cruiser Long Travel Kit

Thanks for the positive note on KDSS. I was beginning to regret it when it came to long travel, but maybe it's not so bad.

Yes, here's the performance LCA from Dirt King. Works with KDSS and no change in width. With the change in width you have to change out the axles.

https://offroadwarehouse.com/i-2303...s.html#!model=4RUNNER||make=TOYOTA||year=2015

 

[honda250xtitan]

Thanks for the positive note on KDSS. I was beginning to regret it when it came to long travel, but maybe it's not so bad.

Yes, here's the performance LCA from Dirt King. Works with KDSS and no change in width. With the change in width you have to change out the axles.

https://offroadwarehouse.com/i-2303...s.html#!model=4RUNNER||make=TOYOTA||year=2015

Long travel ditches the sway bars. You can get extended travel yeah and keep them, but thats definitely not long travel....its .5" more travel then stock lol