wfo9
New member
That thing is crazy. Reminds me of Jeep on a side by side chassis. Road manners should be interesting....
Icon, Fox, King...
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That thing is crazy. Reminds me of Jeep on a side by side chassis. Road manners should be interesting....
Bumbo
New member
Those do look like really nice arms, stout, but $1800 for just lower control arms is a lot to spend for a little gain. They basically provide a small geometry change and for the most part, its still a very "stock" setup.
The end result would be similar to what you can achieve with the ICON extended travel with just a UCA.
Going for a Dirt King Peformance setup like that with new lower and upper arms, you are basically on your way to spending long travel money, less the axles.
Long Travel is a different beast, and yes, you would absolutely have to change out the axles but it would be night and day in comparison to what you could achieve with extended vs long.
LT is still more expensive, because you are most likely going to want to gusset those spindles, buy axles, and throw in a secondary bypass shock and welded shock hoop as well for the 2nd shock. Still looking at a $2-3k difference in cost but its easy to see where the money is going in comparison. That estimate includes the cost a secondary King internal bypass shock with remote rez, clickers, and labor for welding.
The comparison in performance and capability would be staggering, enough to the point where I it makes the middle ground not worth doing IMO. At least not for the money spent.
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DesertCanyons
New member
[MENTION=144483]Bumbo[/MENTION]
That looks great. Who made the UCA and LCA for this set-up? I haven't seen that as a King product. Would like to see more photos of this set-up showing the connection of the shocks on the LCA, some geometry and the secondary shock set up.
Now you're making me want the long travel kit! Darn, there goes my money...
That looks great. Who made the UCA and LCA for this set-up? I haven't seen that as a King product. Would like to see more photos of this set-up showing the connection of the shocks on the LCA, some geometry and the secondary shock set up.
Now you're making me want the long travel kit! Darn, there goes my money...
Bumbo
New member
[MENTION=115572]DesertCanyons[/MENTION]
It's not my truck, I was just scouring google images for examples.
I was searching for Total Chaos pictures when I found them, color of the parts too seems to be in line with their product as well.
TC also makes a kit like dirt king, where you can get lower arms without any track increase, still accommodates two shocks per wheel, but it isn't much cheaper than a full LT kit.
Most people that end up going that route are people who started building it up slowly part by part.
End of the day, all said and done, its basically the cost of axles that becomes the main difference in cost. About $650
The difference being you pretty much have to spend it all in one pull.
Even if you bought 1 shock and decided to add a secondary, you need to pull the primary to get it re-valved. Parting it together over time ends up costing a lot more.
It's not my truck, I was just scouring google images for examples.
I was searching for Total Chaos pictures when I found them, color of the parts too seems to be in line with their product as well.
TC also makes a kit like dirt king, where you can get lower arms without any track increase, still accommodates two shocks per wheel, but it isn't much cheaper than a full LT kit.
Most people that end up going that route are people who started building it up slowly part by part.
End of the day, all said and done, its basically the cost of axles that becomes the main difference in cost. About $650
The difference being you pretty much have to spend it all in one pull.
Even if you bought 1 shock and decided to add a secondary, you need to pull the primary to get it re-valved. Parting it together over time ends up costing a lot more.
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DesertCanyons
New member
Going to long travel one part at a time
Thanks [MENTION=144483]Bumbo[/MENTION],
The long travel looks good but I didn't read much about it because of the wider stance. Better off road. I'm sure you're right. But would it fit in my narrow garage? :shrug:
I got a very good package deal on the ICON stage 7 tubular lift from Total Automotive Performance Las Vegas, aka [MENTION=120150]TotalAutomotiveLV[/MENTION] . So at this point I'd be in the group of people adding long travel piece by piece.
I am working on a project to free up more space in our garage. Maybe when I get that done and move some of the storage out I'd have room for a wide stance long travel set up. It could happen...
Dave in So Cal
Thanks [MENTION=144483]Bumbo[/MENTION],
The long travel looks good but I didn't read much about it because of the wider stance. Better off road. I'm sure you're right. But would it fit in my narrow garage? :shrug:
I got a very good package deal on the ICON stage 7 tubular lift from Total Automotive Performance Las Vegas, aka [MENTION=120150]TotalAutomotiveLV[/MENTION] . So at this point I'd be in the group of people adding long travel piece by piece.
I am working on a project to free up more space in our garage. Maybe when I get that done and move some of the storage out I'd have room for a wide stance long travel set up. It could happen...
Dave in So Cal
honda250xtitan
New member
it doesn't work like that.
DesertCanyons
New member
One piece at a time to long travel
How does it work if you already have a stage 7 ICON lift?
No, you can't add one piece at a time. You gotta add all of them at once. But having an ICON tubular UCA and good ICON shocks, how do you transition? See Bumbo's posts above. I believe he is saying you can upgrade later but it takes some adjustment of the shock, a change out of axles and a secondary shock.
How does it work if you already have a stage 7 ICON lift?
No, you can't add one piece at a time. You gotta add all of them at once. But having an ICON tubular UCA and good ICON shocks, how do you transition? See Bumbo's posts above. I believe he is saying you can upgrade later but it takes some adjustment of the shock, a change out of axles and a secondary shock.
Jeremy556
New member
You throw them away or sell them. Requires different UCAs and coilovers.
Inv4drZm
Senior Member
It's 7/8" at the shaft, so maybe 1.5" at the wheel extra.
Bumbo
New member
[MENTION=115572]DesertCanyons[/MENTION]
I had to re-read my own post, but unfortunately I wasn't direct in getting to my point and may have created some misunderstand.
The point I was trying to make in my example was that if you want to build it part by part, you end up spending long travel money, but end up with regular.
If you knew you were going to spend that much money over time, then you should save, and wait to do it all at once; otherwise you have to spend it twice.
In my example, the cost difference of high end regular travel vs long travel is for the most part, just the cost of axles.
That said, ICON doesn't make long travel. And as mentioned above, you can't have long travel without a track increase. The Extended travel kit from ICON for all intent and purposes, is regular travel suspension with arms that allows you to re-capture a little droop you lost from the lift.
You can have really amazing regular suspension, that still functions within the regular geometry, but you can't call it long travel.
Long travel geometry is competently different... and you can't convert one to the other. Shock(s), UCA, LCA, Axles, all need to be changed again.
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DesertCanyons
New member
Long travel vs extended regular travel
Thanks for the detailed explanation [MENTION=144483]Bumbo[/MENTION].
I think part of the cost is the LT UCA and LCA. Total Chaos makes a kit that sells for about $2700, IIRC. The ICON tubular UCA I bought with a Delta Joint cost around $800. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the specially tuned King LT coil over front shocks that TC says works with their LT kit cost more than the high end shock with remote reservoir and adjustment knob. The regular travel, high end shocks from ICON and King are within about $100 of each other.
And the back end? If you have long travel up front you need expanded travel in the back to follow the front.
What is the little droop you loose from the lift? If you keep the stock LCA, as most people do, where is the loss in droop?
I'm going to have to stick with regular extended travel for now. I have other things that need to get paid for, like the kitchen we're remodeling/re-building. This was a stretch for me to spend this much on a $36,000 vehicle.
Thanks again. Dave
Thanks for the detailed explanation [MENTION=144483]Bumbo[/MENTION].
I think part of the cost is the LT UCA and LCA. Total Chaos makes a kit that sells for about $2700, IIRC. The ICON tubular UCA I bought with a Delta Joint cost around $800. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the specially tuned King LT coil over front shocks that TC says works with their LT kit cost more than the high end shock with remote reservoir and adjustment knob. The regular travel, high end shocks from ICON and King are within about $100 of each other.
And the back end? If you have long travel up front you need expanded travel in the back to follow the front.
What is the little droop you loose from the lift? If you keep the stock LCA, as most people do, where is the loss in droop?
I'm going to have to stick with regular extended travel for now. I have other things that need to get paid for, like the kitchen we're remodeling/re-building. This was a stretch for me to spend this much on a $36,000 vehicle.
Thanks again. Dave
honda250xtitan
New member
800$ for a tubular uca lol.
"specially tuned kings" don't run that much. They start off at the same price as a OEM replacement king. 1300$
ICON overcharges for their stuff IMO. Also Billet aluminum parts is almost as big of a scam as guys running finned resis on their non trophy trucks.
"specially tuned kings" don't run that much. They start off at the same price as a OEM replacement king. 1300$
ICON overcharges for their stuff IMO. Also Billet aluminum parts is almost as big of a scam as guys running finned resis on their non trophy trucks.
wfo9
New member
Just to clear on thing up LT coil overs and regular coil overs cost about the same. There may be a $100 price difference or something.
The main difference in price... is the need for new LCA and CV axle shafts (both suspensions really require new UCAs)
The other factor to consider is no sway bars currently available for LT.. So you are building a much more dedicated rig that will sacrifice some road manners.
There is also naturally more maintenance with the LT lowers.
Bottom line.. even if you are willing to spend the money... It's not an easy call. Clearly better off-road... but is it worth it is not the same answer for everyone.
The main difference in price... is the need for new LCA and CV axle shafts (both suspensions really require new UCAs)
The other factor to consider is no sway bars currently available for LT.. So you are building a much more dedicated rig that will sacrifice some road manners.
There is also naturally more maintenance with the LT lowers.
Bottom line.. even if you are willing to spend the money... It's not an easy call. Clearly better off-road... but is it worth it is not the same answer for everyone.
Bumbo
New member
Its the length of the shock that was increased in a LT kit... and for the most part, they cost about the same. The labor to create both those units are pretty much the same, one has a slightly higher material cost.
Once you get into this type of performance damper, its really the diameter that changes the price. The small changes in length don't do much. Even if you are getting 100% custom shocks made, you just provide them with the measurements and they build you one and it will probably be in the same price ballpark.
As for the arms... comparing mandrel bent tubes to a welded fully boxed and reinforced arms you see in those Dirt King or TC kits are very different in terms of cost, construction, and quality. The latter costing a lot more to produce as well. Again, ICON doesn't make LT. It's just a simple UCA in their kit.
Rear vs Front... Fronts are generally working harder. I run out of front suspension before the rears anyways. Getting LT up front would actually allow me to utilize more of the rear suspension. The only thing I would add to the rears would be Hydraulic Air Bumpstops. The next step from there is basically custom suspension that requires fabrication.
Droop... think about it... the wheel travel on the car is fixed. From fully compressed to fully drooped. You only have so much distance to use in either direction.
When you lift the truck, all you are doing is changing the center line of that stroke. The more you lift, the more compression you gain, and you obviously gave something up to get that, and that was the downward travel. There is NO FREE LUNCH.
This is why trucks jacked to the sky with budget lifts ride like garbage... as I mentioned above, the lack of droop is the difference between the wheel falling into a pothole vs the truck falling into the pothole.
The extended travel stuff is basically a way to fix/improve/re-capture the center line that moved from lifting the truck. Its a positive thing. Its accomplished by using a UCA joint that allows for more flex/articulation... pushing the capabilities of the factory geometry.
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LawnDart
Senior Member
Next week I'm doing a FULL rebuild of my suspension, literally every joint, every bushing, every uniball is being removed and replaced.
People want LT but assume it'll be maintenance free? Prepare for a rude awakening. Alignments are also hit or miss, thankfully i have a shop here who are awesome about it.
Road manners are? Interesting. It drives like a boat for sure. And the minute you rock the wheel back and forth prepare to scare the shit out of your passengers.
People want LT but assume it'll be maintenance free? Prepare for a rude awakening. Alignments are also hit or miss, thankfully i have a shop here who are awesome about it.
Road manners are? Interesting. It drives like a boat for sure. And the minute you rock the wheel back and forth prepare to scare the shit out of your passengers.
DesertCanyons
New member
Long Travel Explained
[MENTION=144483]Bumbo[/MENTION],
Thanks for the many long and detailed replies. I understand a lot more about long travel versus regular extended travel now, thanks to you.
The more I learn the more I know I need to learn.
And [MENTION=124732]LawnDart[/MENTION] is not making LT sound like fun. How does it drive when your racing in Baja, LawnDart?
[MENTION=144483]Bumbo[/MENTION],
Thanks for the many long and detailed replies. I understand a lot more about long travel versus regular extended travel now, thanks to you.
The more I learn the more I know I need to learn.
And [MENTION=124732]LawnDart[/MENTION] is not making LT sound like fun. How does it drive when your racing in Baja, LawnDart?
LawnDart
Senior Member
It's not like you're in a trophy truck if that's what you're asking. I got to drive a raptor around for part of a day in Baja and that thing was lighter and had a factory long travel setup, and that was awesome.
My setup is pretty trick. I'd basically say this, if you like how a well built mid-travel setup feels, it feels like that but over terrain that a mid-travel setup starts having problems on. It doesn't really change the envelope it just raises the ceiling a bit on said envelope.
The biggest thing is that my shocks are setup for high speed valving, which means on the street they're not exactly super comfortable. However when you really start working the suspension at speed everything mellows out. There were a couple of times we caught air that I was about to go code brown, and we landed nice and gentle. Then there were times we'd hit potholes in small villages and I thought my teeth were gonna shatter.
honda250xtitan
New member
Flexus
New member
The King/Icon setups are cool for adjust-ability and ride but the heim joints are an endless service nightmare unless they can be greased. They are always noisy and you get more road vibration into the chassis. For 1-2" of lift, all the stock parts work fine since these trucks are lowered for the USA from their optimal original design IMO.
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