If You Off-road Your 5th Gen with P-metric Tires Please Vote

[AZ Craig]

Good luck.

Lots of stories of inability-to-balance the Falken Wildpeak AT3W's. A GM friend of a National tire chain even said they were considering stopping carrying them due to too many complaints.

When they were just about the cheapest tire you could buy, they became popular. Now they aren't the price leader, but uniformity doesn't seem to have improved.

So my E-rated Falkens were not easy to balance but it was possible to get them behaving for awhile. I probably have had just as much problem with my Yokohamas being out of balance at times to be honest (debating if I should try to get them redone now with 40K miles on them or just get new tires sooner). It seems like peoples' experience has vastly varied here with some Falken sets being impossible to balance and others being pretty normal.

Your point about pricing of the Falkens is spot on though. I remember when they first came out (I think around 2016) they were probably one of the cheapest tires available in their respective sizes. I remember the E-load I bought was cheaper than quite a few P-metric tires from other manufacturers and the P-metric was downright cheap (maybe even below $150 a tire if my memory is right).

Tire prices have gone up a ton in the last 5 to 10 years, but Falken has definitely raised their prices more than some other brands. A quick sanity check of this statement shows respectable similar tires from brands including Goodyear, Hankook, and Yokohama all coming in below Falken's price.

A brilliant move upwards considering Falken was long viewed as a budget tire (I remember I had some on a rice burner in the 90s when it was one of the cheaper tires I could afford as a 18 year old kid). Now they're OEM equipment on a few brands out there I know.

 

[CutthroatSlam]

Attempting to throw away this much empirical user data isn't wise. To me it's helpful and nice to see.

If you want to throw away the collective experiences of a hundred people and instead focus on a combination of your own experiences and opinions on the topic, nobody is stopping you from doing that. But, for reasons that should be readily obvious, some people find the data from 100 people useful.

Seeing this thread is what made me go over the fence and choose P-metric AT3W's, when LT E's were offered in the same size. Nothin' but smiles yet, and I'll report if I pop them offroad in what feels like a situation where they shouldn't have or "where an LT E would have maybe survived" based on nothing but guessing.

Yeah I’m throwing away the experiences of 100 because we do not know how they used the tires and on what terrain. I am certain that not a single one of them has the mileage and the off-roading that we have, so my anecdotal experience trumps your so-called empirical data.

 

[honda250xtitan]

FWIW we did 2 trips on the stock tires. second trip was a graded dirt road to a forest trial, 2 holes thru the driver front tire. would a LT prevent that? maybe. maybe not (i've had a ton of nails go thru the e and f rated tires on my f250) but i've had ZERO issues once we switched to e rated bfg's, e rated coopers, and now d rated toyos on the toyota. with much more abuse and mileage.

 

[AZ Craig]

FWIW we did 2 trips on the stock tires. second trip was a graded dirt road to a forest trial, 2 holes thru the driver front tire. would a LT prevent that? maybe. maybe not (i've had a ton of nails go thru the e and f rated tires on my f250) but i've had ZERO issues once we switched to e rated bfg's, e rated coopers, and now d rated toyos on the toyota. with much more abuse and mileage.

Highway tires are really not designed for offroad usage though (assuming you had the Grand Treks or something else on). Getting flats with them is highly likely really on anything more than asphalt.

This is where the whole "on-road AT" craze is coming from also with tires like the Nitto Nomad Grappler. Too many people getting flats with their Rav4 or Subaru when they try to go 2 miles down a dirt road with some rocks sticking out.

 

[02SE]

So my E-rated Falkens were not easy to balance but it was possible to get them behaving for awhile. I probably have had just as much problem with my Yokohamas being out of balance at times to be honest (debating if I should try to get them redone now with 40K miles on them or just get new tires sooner). It seems like peoples' experience has vastly varied here with some Falken sets being impossible to balance and others being pretty normal.

Your point about pricing of the Falkens is spot on though. I remember when they first came out (I think around 2016) they were probably one of the cheapest tires available in their respective sizes. I remember the E-load I bought was cheaper than quite a few P-metric tires from other manufacturers and the P-metric was downright cheap (maybe even below $150 a tire if my memory is right).

Tire prices have gone up a ton in the last 5 to 10 years, but Falken has definitely raised their prices more than some other brands. A quick sanity check of this statement shows respectable similar tires from brands including Goodyear, Hankook, and Yokohama all coming in below Falken's price.

A brilliant move upwards considering Falken was long viewed as a budget tire (I remember I had some on a rice burner in the 90s when it was one of the cheaper tires I could afford as a 18 year old kid). Now they're OEM equipment on a few brands out there I know.

In early 2020, the P265/70R17 Falken Wildpeak AT3W, could be bought for under $100.00.

I briefly considered them because they were a steal at that price, but their historic uniformity issues, and the fact they were heavier due to using a lower tensile strength steel (so they had to use more steel than usual to reach a casing strength goal) made them unattractive to me.

 

[thatoneguy]

In early 2020, the P265/70R17 Falken Wildpeak AT3W, could be bought for under $100.00.

I briefly considered them because they were a steal at that price, but their historic uniformity issues, and the fact they were heavier due to using a lower tensile strength steel (so they had to use more steel than usual to reach a casing strength goal) made them unattractive to me.

This seems like a strange statement, and one I've personally never heard of with the Falken Wildpeaks. I don't see any data that backs that up.

In LT265/70R17 size, a Falken Wildpeak AT3W and BFG KO2 are offered. Both load range E, both a 121 load index. They both weigh 53 lbs. I don't see how someone could say "ah yeah but falken uses more of a crappy steel so the tire weighs more"--where's the proof? Or is the BFG KO2 also obese and "crappy steel"? Or are we talking comparing the P-metric Wildpeak to other P-metric A/Ts on the market?

AT3W's have near-universal rave reviews from pavement pounders and offroaders alike, so that steered me that way. I didn't want LT E's, at least for this first set, and the stock size BFG in Load Range C has a 112 load index--LOWER than the P-metric AT3W, but more importantly LOWER than the factory all-seasons at 113! I was flat-out not willing to replace my dinky factory all-seasons with an A/T that was rated for less load than what the truck came on. The p-metric AT3W is a 115 load index.. who knows, maybe it's tougher than the C-range KO2. Honestly it seems like there's some borderline overlap between certain P-metric tires and "LT" tires in load range C, and it's a little confusing.

Now on another note, I sure wish I paid $100/tire, and not the $220/each I just paid the other month for five.

 

[thatoneguy]

It's interesting how much experiences can vary. I've done hundreds of miles of serious offroading, sometimes featuring scary desert pointy rocks, on various p-metric tires over the years, with no failures ever. We've got a guy a couple pages back on this thread that has done over 5,000 offroad miles on p-metrics with no failures. Some here have had P-metrics pop if they go up a dirt driveway in the country with a pebble on it. My freakin' Miata just did another 10 miles on a very not-perfect dirt/gravel road the other week without incident, and that thing has 4" sidewalls.

Maybe like another guy suggested, definitions of "easy" or "hard" offroading vary by person. Maybe some guys consider unpleasant dirt driveways "moderate offroading". Maybe some guys consider bouncing off pointy shale at 30mph "going easier on their tires than they usually do". Anyone done King Of The Hammers on P-metrics?

 

[02SE]

This seems like a strange statement, and one I've personally never heard of with the Falken Wildpeaks. I don't see any data that backs that up.

In LT265/70R17 size, a Falken Wildpeak AT3W and BFG KO2 are offered. Both load range E, both a 121 load index. They both weigh 53 lbs. I don't see how someone could say "ah yeah but falken uses more of a crappy steel so the tire weighs more"--where's the proof? Or is the BFG KO2 also obese and "crappy steel"? Or are we talking comparing the P-metric Wildpeak to other P-metric A/Ts on the market?

I never said "crappy steel"...

It was a tire engineer who made the comment. Falken used old tech lower strength steel in it's belts, instead of more modern high-strength steel. So in order to meet the load capacity of a given load range, more steel has to be used. The BFG KO2 in load range E has more material in it's stronger 3-ply sidewalls, which increases their weight, but it's a specific design trait to achieve stronger sidewalls.

 

[AZ Craig]

This seems like a strange statement, and one I've personally never heard of with the Falken Wildpeaks. I don't see any data that backs that up.

In LT265/70R17 size, a Falken Wildpeak AT3W and BFG KO2 are offered. Both load range E, both a 121 load index. They both weigh 53 lbs. I don't see how someone could say "ah yeah but falken uses more of a crappy steel so the tire weighs more"--where's the proof? Or is the BFG KO2 also obese and "crappy steel"? Or are we talking comparing the P-metric Wildpeak to other P-metric A/Ts on the market?

AT3W's have near-universal rave reviews from pavement pounders and offroaders alike, so that steered me that way. I didn't want LT E's, at least for this first set, and the stock size BFG in Load Range C has a 112 load index--LOWER than the P-metric AT3W, but more importantly LOWER than the factory all-seasons at 113! I was flat-out not willing to replace my dinky factory all-seasons with an A/T that was rated for less load than what the truck came on. The p-metric AT3W is a 115 load index.. who knows, maybe it's tougher than the C-range KO2. Honestly it seems like there's some borderline overlap between certain P-metric tires and "LT" tires in load range C, and it's a little confusing.

Now on another note, I sure wish I paid $100/tire, and not the $220/each I just paid the other month for five.

So the E-load Falken is not a particularly heavy tire (albeit, it's not light either). You can find E-loads in the 45 to 50 pound range, but I would question if they are as durable as a Falken E-load to be honest.

I think what was being referred to was the P-metric. Here's a few example P-metric weights for 265/70R17:

Falken Wildpeak AT3W = 47 pounds
General Grabber AT/X = 43 pounds
Firestone Destination AT2 = 39 pounds
Toyo Open Country AT3 = 41 pounds
Dunlop Grand Trek = 40 pounds

Even the Mickey Thompson AT2 which is an XL (116 load rating) is 45 pounds; 2 pounds lighter than the 115 load rating Falken.

In looking around I could not find a P-metric that weighed more than the Falken .

And on the balance issue, perhaps Falken has addressed this over the years given that the tire has been on the market for something like 7 or 8 years ago. It was kind of a crap shoot in the earlier days of these tires if you got ones that would balance up well or not. Invariably even if it could be done, they tended to take a lot of weight.

 

[AZ Craig]

It's interesting how much experiences can vary. I've done hundreds of miles of serious offroading, sometimes featuring scary desert pointy rocks, on various p-metric tires over the years, with no failures ever. We've got a guy a couple pages back on this thread that has done over 5,000 offroad miles on p-metrics with no failures. Some here have had P-metrics pop if they go up a dirt driveway in the country with a pebble on it. My freakin' Miata just did another 10 miles on a very not-perfect dirt/gravel road the other week without incident, and that thing has 4" sidewalls.

Maybe like another guy suggested, definitions of "easy" or "hard" offroading vary by person. Maybe some guys consider unpleasant dirt driveways "moderate offroading". Maybe some guys consider bouncing off pointy shale at 30mph "going easier on their tires than they usually do". Anyone done King Of The Hammers on P-metrics?

I think it comes down to where you live also. The Southwest is probably the nastiest place for wrecking tires from what I've seen with a lot of pretty nasty surfaces in places like Arizona and Colorado (for one thing, a lot of shale as you elude to). I've been gun shy to not run an E-load here in Arizona since a flat at the wrong time could be a downright dangerous experience (for instance, if you are 20+ miles from pavement with no cell phone service by yourself).

That being said; line selection and driver skill in tandem with what you're willing to put your vehicle through obviously is going to also determine how hard you are on your tires.

 

[DocHalsey]

I simply can’t deal with the worse ride quality of an LT tire. If I spent more time off-road than on road I might make the switch.

Michelin Defender LTX M/S P rated tires here.

 

[thatoneguy]

Was in a parking lot with a lot of 5th gen 4Runners today. Two people had LT load range E BFG KO2s. One guy had P-metric load range 115 Wildpeak AT3W's, just like I have. All had evidence of offroad use. Hopefully the P-metrics aren't ruining that one guy's life!

 

[91foxbody]

I just did most of the alpine loop (skipped Engineer due to reports of it being severely degraded), and several other high passes. Spent the entire time sitting between 20-25 psi, including some small sections on highway...all in P-rated Grabber ATX's. I'm going to a D-rated tire soon, but the stock-sized ATX's in P-rating have been fantastic.

 

[thatoneguy]

I just did most of the alpine loop (skipped Engineer due to reports of it being severely degraded), and several other high passes. Spent the entire time sitting between 20-25 psi, including some small sections on highway...all in P-rated Grabber ATX's. I'm going to a D-rated tire soon, but the stock-sized ATX's in P-rating have been fantastic.

I'm about to do the alpine loop myself... I hadn't heard that engineer was in poor shape. I'll have to hurry and look into that this week!

 

[91foxbody]

I'm about to do the alpine loop myself... I hadn't heard that engineer was in poor shape. I'll have to hurry and look into that this week!

It's listed as the worst pass here currently:

San Juan JEEP ROADS

Someone here talked about how rough it was in a Tundra:

alltrails.com

I found several other reviews saying the winter had degraded the roads and made it more technical/difficult than traditional years. We didn't have a ton of time on our last day and decided to punt.

The road that had me the most surprised was the side road up to Carson. We climbed up a half a mile or so and decided to turn around because it was getting dark. That's the first time I've ever though "I'm not sure my tires are up for this."

 

[AZ Craig]

It's listed as the worst pass here currently:

San Juan JEEP ROADS

Someone here talked about how rough it was in a Tundra:

alltrails.com

I found several other reviews saying the winter had degraded the roads and made it more technical/difficult than traditional years. We didn't have a ton of time on our last day and decided to punt.

The road that had me the most surprised was the side road up to Carson. We climbed up a half a mile or so and decided to turn around because it was getting dark. That's the first time I've ever though "I'm not sure my tires are up for this."

Great web site. Interesting to see Black Bear west side listed as a "D" right now and Ophir even at a "C." Ophir was at most a "B" (on the west side) the last time I ran it in my 4Runner back in late 2020.

I'm sure the winter may have really banged up the roads though with all that snow melt this year. UTVs are also slowly but surely destroying some stuff.

 

[91foxbody]

Great web site. Interesting to see Black Bear west side listed as a "D" right now and Ophir even at a "C." Ophir was at most a "B" (on the west side) the last time I ran it in my 4Runner back in late 2020.

I'm sure the winter may have really banged up the roads though with all that snow melt this year. UTVs are also slowly but surely destroying some stuff.

I thought Ophir was fine. It was definitely mildly spicy going down into Ophir from Silverton, but it's much easier to go down rather than up. There's a decent flex/drop-off down to the first switch back, but nothing awful.

Black Bear is technically closed, we were told by locals in town they hadn't cleared all of the snow yet and only bikes could make it up.

 

[thatoneguy]

I thought Ophir was fine. It was definitely mildly spicy going down into Ophir from Silverton, but it's much easier to go down rather than up. There's a decent flex/drop-off down to the first switch back, but nothing awful.

Black Bear is technically closed, we were told by locals in town they hadn't cleared all of the snow yet and only bikes could make it up.

Which trails did you do, and what did you personally think of the conditions on each? I would definitely like to get more than just Cinnamon in during this trip if I can help it. We were gonna take Ophir going west to east, unless it's gnarly. Along with Corkscrew/California, Engineer, Cinnamon back to Silverton, and ultimately taking Stony Pass out.

That website is helpful, although it's hard to know how old the updates are on each trail. A month makes a lot of difference.

 

[AZ Craig]

Which trails did you do, and what did you personally think of the conditions on each? I would definitely like to get more than just Cinnamon in during this trip if I can help it. We were gonna take Ophir going west to east, unless it's gnarly. Along with Corkscrew/California, Engineer, Cinnamon back to Silverton, and ultimately taking Stony Pass out.

That website is helpful, although it's hard to know how old the updates are on each trail. A month makes a lot of difference.

You should really be fine on Ophir. Last time we did it there was a cross over most of the way up the west side of it (I think it was a CR-V or a Forester). They were not having a good time, but I actually told them to just complete it versus trying to turn around since they were at least 3/4 of the way up to the top (and the east side is pretty chill). Ophir is definitely the easiest of the few passes there and makes a great option with Imogene for a day trip (east side of Imogene is no joke though and could be further degrading the last few years).

I haven't been in the Alpine Loop in over a decade though. Back then it wasn't really that bad and we started it from US550 by Ouray going up Mineral Basin (or whatever the hell it is called). I've heard that's in horrible condition now. It was tricky when we did it but the main issue was passing was near impossible in a lot of areas of it (narrow shelf going up a ravine full of water).

 

[like2lean]

(skipped Engineer due to reports of it being severely degraded)

I've noticed many references include the Mineral Creek leg south of Ouray as part of Engineer Pass and the Alpine Loop. It's certainly an option but for many the Loop is better done from Silverton, it's MUCH easier leaving Mineral out of the equation but not near as much fun! They must be rating Engineer difficult right now by including it. Mineral has gotten harder over the years I'm not sure I'll even try it in the new 4R anymore, but if you're in a rubicon, on a bike or SXS, it's a blast!