Improved T4R MPG....

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No worry. A plug in gets 100mpge. A 4Runner gets 20 mpg. Averaged together = 60 mpg. Sell a lot of plug ins, a lot of Corollas and a few 4Runners.
 
The standards are misleading... they are done in a lab, not based on real world mpg. NPR reported it would be closer to a real world 40 mpg. Apparently the automanufactuers are embracing it. Specifically California was going to do something like this on their own, and the manufacturers would prefer a uniform standard.

I for one am excited, I think we are going to see a lot more diesel engines for small trucks and suv's which is cool. It would give the torque everyone wants and would bring even the 4Runner above 30 mpg on the highway (ala 2014 JGC Diesel).

I also think hydrogen is a long time coming, and when it's finally market ready it will be a game changer as well. MPG will not matter nearly as much, because the by-product the vehicle creates is air and water. Oil will not last forever (unless we use algae to produce it as is being done in spain but not ready for market) and it creates pollution when burned. I'm glad automanufacturers are embracing this... it is as exciting to me as being able to walk into a Ford Dealer and purchase a 650hp Mustang with a warranty.
 
wow, my street bike doesnt get that good of mileage...

Yep. Another fine decision by this administration. Why worry about the economy, the national debt, or anything else. Lets harass the auto makers. Think of how much it is going to cost us to buy new cars in the years to come. The auto manufacturers are going to spend a fortune trying to chase a number that is way too aggressive. Now, if we get some clean diesels that is another story, but on dino oil this isn't going to happen.
 
Yep. Another fine decision by this administration. Why worry about the economy, the national debt, or anything else. Lets harass the auto makers. Think of how much it is going to cost us to buy new cars in the years to come. The auto manufacturers are going to spend a fortune trying to chase a number that is way too aggressive. Now, if we get some clean diesels that is another story, but on dino oil this isn't going to happen.

The US is one of the few markets that doesn't have clean diesel, all the manufacturers already offer these engines around the world. The technology is already there... especially when most brands going to a global platform for their vehicles. I see this as a natural progression for the auto industry, such as fuel injection is now leading to direct injection, and vehicles now come with traction control, etc. Oil won't run out in our lifetimes but we need to address that problem now instead of sticking it to our grandchildren down the road.
 
The US is one of the few markets that doesn't have clean diesel, all the manufacturers already offer these engines around the world.

Actually, we do. It just isn't that widespread. VW is selling a bunch of tdis. Mercedes is selling a diesel in their ML, GL, E and S series. Jeep is going to be selling a diesel in the Jeep Grand Cherokee next year.

The problem, though, is that given the cost of diesel in the US, it is hard to justify the extra cost of the diesel engine. In Europe, gas is taxed out the yin-yang, so diesel fuel is a lot cheaper, therefore there is a quick payback on the extra cost of the diesel engine.

I'd love to see a turbodiesel 4Runner, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
The standards are misleading... they are done in a lab, not based on real world mpg. NPR reported it would be closer to a real world 40 mpg. Apparently the automanufactuers are embracing it. Specifically California was going to do something like this on their own, and the manufacturers would prefer a uniform standard.

I for one am excited, I think we are going to see a lot more diesel engines for small trucks and suv's which is cool. It would give the torque everyone wants and would bring even the 4Runner above 30 mpg on the highway (ala 2014 JGC Diesel).

Except that the going back and forth between administrations will also kill any clear directive to the EPA on actually permitting diesel engines more efficiently. Currently, it's not the engine and emissions system that needs to be certified, but every model that has that engine for light duty vehicles. Separately. Only VW and Mercedes bothered (except one BMW model IIRC).

So basically, the market for EU-style diesel engines was killed by government "inaction" because of the opinion that "domestic" manufacturers had nothing to compete with that. Which also mallarkey, since both Ford and GM's European divisions have excellent diesel models of the vehicles sold here.
I also think hydrogen is a long time coming, and when it's finally market ready it will be a game changer as well. MPG will not matter nearly as much, because the by-product the vehicle creates is air and water. Oil will not last forever (unless we use algae to produce it as is being done in spain but not ready for market) and it creates pollution when burned. I'm glad automanufacturers are embracing this... it is as exciting to me as being able to walk into a Ford Dealer and purchase a 650hp Mustang with a warranty.

Contrary to popular belief, hydrogen burned in a conventional internal combustion engines produces more pollutants that actually matter than gasoline. Why? Because combustion temperatures are so high that oxides of nitrogen are off the charts. That's the stuff that gives cities their lovely orange haze, causes asthma, etc. ETA: Compact fuel cells have issues of their own - while I'd love to see a fuel cell + electric vehicle, I don't see some of the issues with FC tech being solved soon.

Elevated oxides of "other stuff" are also a problem in CNG and LPG vehicles.

Then there are issues with fuel density and storage. You need a few thousand psi to compress hydrogen to be liquid, and even so, it has a lower energy density than other fuels. So you need more volume, for which you need larger pressure vessels, and so on. So now 30% of your vehicle weight is hydrogen tanks. CNG has the same problem, and it's a deal breaker for most.

That leaves LPG. Here today, and engines built for it last nearly as long as diesels. And we have lots of it.
 
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The US is one of the few markets that doesn't have clean diesel, all the manufacturers already offer these engines around the world. The technology is already there... especially when most brands going to a global platform for their vehicles. I see this as a natural progression for the auto industry, such as fuel injection is now leading to direct injection, and vehicles now come with traction control, etc. Oil won't run out in our lifetimes but we need to address that problem now instead of sticking it to our grandchildren down the road.

I wonder if they will decrease the tax on diesel to encourage more consumers here to want to buy diesel vehicles. I believe that diesel is currently taxed 25% higher than gasoline, which is why we see such high diesel prices around the country. If they were taxed the same they could compete. I, for one, would quite quickly embrace diesel in both of my vehicles given more options to purchase. It baffles the mind how you can get upwards of 50mpg now in a diesel Jetta but people would rather get half that on a gas motor.
 
Except that the going back and forth between administrations will also kill any clear directive to the EPA on actually permitting diesel engines more efficiently. Currently, it's not the engine and emissions system that needs to be certified, but every model that has that engine for light duty vehicles. Separately. Only VW and Mercedes bothered (except one BMW model IIRC).

So basically, the market for EU-style diesel engines was killed by government "inaction" because of the opinion that "domestic" manufacturers had nothing to compete with that. Which also mallarkey, since both Ford and GM's European divisions have excellent diesel models of the vehicles sold here.


Contrary to popular belief, hydrogen burned in a conventional internal combustion engines produces more pollutants that actually matter than gasoline. Why? Because combustion temperatures are so high that oxides of nitrogen are off the charts. That's the stuff that gives cities their lovely orange haze, causes asthma, etc.

Elevated oxides of "other stuff" are also a problem in CNG and LPG vehicles.

Then there are issues with fuel density and storage. You need a few thousand psi to compress hydrogen to be liquid, and even so, it has a lower energy density than other fuels. So you need more volume, for which you need larger pressure vessels, and so on. So now 30% of your vehicle weight is hydrogen tanks. CNG has the same problem, and it's a deal breaker for most.

That leaves LPG. Here today, and engines built for it last nearly as long as diesels. And we have lots of it.

Sorry I didn't type that right. I wasn't saying that diesel's aren't offered in the US, what I meant was they aren't offered in the same way they are offered in whats seems like the rest of the world. Chevy Trax would be an example of a small suv diesel that we won't get... You can only make vehicles so light, eventually you need to have more efficient engines as well. Eventually diesel will pick up in the US.
 
Sorry I didn't type that right. I wasn't saying that diesel's aren't offered in the US, what I meant was they aren't offered in the same way they are offered in whats seems like the rest of the world. Chevy Trax would be an example of a small suv diesel that we won't get... You can only make vehicles so light, eventually you need to have more efficient engines as well. Eventually diesel will pick up in the US.

Reason being is US Tier III and Tier IV pollution requirements are much more stringent than rest of world. No, with current regulations diesels will never "pick up" in US. Write Washington.
 
Reason being is US Tier III and Tier IV pollution requirements are much more stringent than rest of world. No, with current regulations diesels will never "pick up" in US. Write Washington.

Pollution requirements have nothing to do with the fact that diesels aren't more common in the United States. If there is money to be made, people will find a way. Gas for the most part over the last 30 years has been relatively cheap here, and so mpg didn't really matter. I will let you argue semantics over why oil/gas is more expensive i.e. speculation, emerging markets, etc. the fact is that for the first time in my life mpg has across the board become a huge marketing ploy due to peoples demand for fuel efficient vehicles. If you don't think you will be seeing more diesel options in the coming years, I think you will be surprised... there is talk at Jeep that the Wrangler may be getting the same diesel option as the Grand Cherokee. Volkswagen as mentioned offers diesel, Mercedes Benz, BMW is offering 35d models, etc. While still not a huge part of the market, I don't ever remember having this many diesel options in so many body styles.
 
Actually, we do. It just isn't that widespread. VW is selling a bunch of tdis. Mercedes is selling a diesel in their ML, GL, E and S series. Jeep is going to be selling a diesel in the Jeep Grand Cherokee next year.

The problem, though, is that given the cost of diesel in the US, it is hard to justify the extra cost of the diesel engine. In Europe, gas is taxed out the yin-yang, so diesel fuel is a lot cheaper, therefore there is a quick payback on the extra cost of the diesel engine.

I'd love to see a turbodiesel 4Runner, but I'm not holding my breath.
BMW also has a couple diesel models in its U.S. lineup. my wife's 335D (diesel) has torque out the wazoo and rides like it's on rails; 35 (s)miles-per-gallon. :D
 
Pollution requirements have nothing to do with the fact that diesels aren't more common in the United States. If there is money to be made, people will find a way. Gas for the most part over the last 30 years has been relatively cheap here, and so mpg didn't really matter. I will let you argue semantics over why oil/gas is more expensive i.e. speculation, emerging markets, etc. the fact is that for the first time in my life mpg has across the board become a huge marketing ploy due to peoples demand for fuel efficient vehicles. If you don't think you will be seeing more diesel options in the coming years, I think you will be surprised... there is talk at Jeep that the Wrangler may be getting the same diesel option as the Grand Cherokee. Volkswagen as mentioned offers diesel, Mercedes Benz, BMW is offering 35d models, etc. While still not a huge part of the market, I don't ever remember having this many diesel options in so many body styles.

My friend, pollution requirements have EVERYTHING to do with this argument.
You are correct in the statement "If there is money to be made people will find a way" except currently and into the forseeable future there is no money to be made with diesels in the personal vehicle market in the US. Sure vehicles will be OFFERED for sale with diesels (which you cited) but it does not take a math wiz to figure out that paying a huge premium up front to drive 15K miles a year and buy fuel that is more expensive than gasoline is a losing proposition. CAFE standards are complex and by offering and selling a few diesels will allow the OEM's to easier meet those efficiency requirements. Now, why do diesels cost so much? Simple. Emissions requirements from our beloved government. Why does diesel fuel get taxed so heavily? Again, simple. The vast majority of diesel on highway here in the US is by commercial truck. Which causes more damage and requires more upkeep to roads - your 4Runner or that 18 wheeler hauling 70K pounds? I would prefer they pay their share thank you. Do a little research into the Tier III and Tier IV standards, compare them to the EU standards and then you will see the differences between the US and the rest of the world in regards to diesel.
 
My friend, pollution requirements have EVERYTHING to do with this argument.
You are correct in the statement "If there is money to be made people will find a way" except currently and into the forseeable future there is no money to be made with diesels in the personal vehicle market in the US. Sure vehicles will be OFFERED for sale with diesels (which you cited) but it does not take a math wiz to figure out that paying a huge premium up front to drive 15K miles a year and buy fuel that is more expensive than gasoline is a losing proposition. CAFE standards are complex and by offering and selling a few diesels will allow the OEM's to easier meet those efficiency requirements. Now, why do diesels cost so much? Simple. Emissions requirements from our beloved government. Why does diesel fuel get taxed so heavily? Again, simple. The vast majority of diesel on highway here in the US is by commercial truck. Which causes more damage and requires more upkeep to roads - your 4Runner or that 18 wheeler hauling 70K pounds? I would prefer they pay their share thank you. Do a little research into the Tier III and Tier IV standards, compare them to the EU standards and then you will see the differences between the US and the rest of the world in regards to diesel.

You really have to do the math on an individual basis... I did the math on the WK Hemi and it would still be cheaper not including up front cost to buy more exspensive diesel because the increased mpg would off-set it. Unlike a smaller gas engine, the diesel was just as competent as the hemi due to the strong torque.

Diesel's aren't prohibitively expensive in the vehicles they are being offered in... My point is if environmental standards alone were keeping diesels out of the US, then why are they offered here in any fashion and why are more and more brands bringing them to market?
 
You really have to do the math on an individual basis... I did the math on the WK Hemi and it would still be cheaper not including up front cost to buy more exspensive diesel because the increased mpg would off-set it. Unlike a smaller gas engine, the diesel was just as competent as the hemi due to the strong torque.

Diesel's aren't prohibitively expensive in the vehicles they are being offered in... My point is if environmental standards alone were keeping diesels out of the US, then why are they offered here in any fashion and why are more and more brands bringing them to market?

I understand. They are being offered as a "niche market" option and as I said before, CAFE standards are complex and depending on certain vehicles even being offered with high mpg potential will up the overall CAFE number for that OEM.

To your point on up front costs for diesel option:
I checked the MB GL350 and the difference was 3K for diesel vs. gas. $3K will buy 750 gallons of fuel at $4.00/gallon. If you swag 30 mpg then you could go an additional 22,500 miles for the same price.

With that said, let's look at a hypothetical 4Runner with some real world numbers:

Assumption:
Gas powered 4Runner
Cost of $36,000
MPG - 22
Gas $4.00/gal
15,000 mile/yr driving

Diesel powered 4Runner
Cost of $39,000 (used same delta as Mercedes)
MPG - 27.5 (used 25% increase, same as other similar models)
Diesel $4.25/gal (as of today there is about $0.25 difference in a gallon on avg.)
15,000 mile/yr driving

Costs per year:
Gas 4Runner - $2,727.3 for fuel
Diesel 4Runner - $2,318.0 for fuel and $100.0 for DEF for a total of $2,418.0

This gives you a savings of $310.0/yr. Now add in that initial $3K for the diesel and you will see it takes close to 10 years of ownership to pay back the initial cost.
Where you would save of course is driving a lot of miles a year. I drive about 30K/yr so after five years I would break even. The question is does anyone really want to wait until 150K miles before they start saving on their initial purchase? I don't.
 

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