Is the US Economy Improving?

Is the US Economy Improving?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 36.0%
  • No

    Votes: 12 48.0%
  • Collapse Imminent

    Votes: 4 16.0%

  • Total voters
    25
This thread is making me into a bipolar person...reading Toytech's posts makes me happy...then, reading GMZ's posts makes me sad again.... :D Where's the ice cream bucket??

I can only say that you should do your own research. It's fairly easy to bias the info one way or the other because it's such a complex issue. The state of the economy isn't easy to decipher because of its complexity.

Like I said though, unemployment is historically the very LAST thing to improve during an economic downturn. When we see unemployment figures getting better, the economy in general will already have been heading north for a while.
 
This holiday season will be very flat. .

I'm sure it will. But if you look at the last two holidays season prior to this one, sales were also very poor. Merchants haven't had strong holiday season sales for at least three years. It's obvious that this year will not be their saving grace because we've been in a recession for over a year now.

BTW, this has been the longest recession in history. The last big recession was in 2001 after the collapse of the dot.com bubble, 9/11, and all those accounting scandals (Enron, WorldCom) hit us. We pulled out of that one and we'll pull out of this one.
 
The U.S. has already moved from a manufacturing economy to a service economy. Made in China (or wherever else) is here to stay. It's called globalization. Developing nations will always provide cheaper labor, due to lower costs of living than we have here in the U.S.

But that doesn't signal a collapse of anything.

How much is the U.S. in debt? I haven't seen nor heard that it's getting lesser but deeper in debt.
 
The reason is because most of the cynics use those to support their argument and say how we're in for a major depression and food shortages, marshall law, etc... They say buy guns and bullets because you'll need them to protect your food storage and families. I've heard it all time and time again. Yet it still hasn't happened, more than a year after many of them predicted it would. The dollar is still our currency. We can still buy food at reasonably competitive prices. There's no oil shortages. I can go on and on, but I won't. I'm just tired of hearing people say that we're in for an economic collapse. Things are beginning to stabilize and even get better. The doom and gloom is just tiring.

BTW, I recently decided to buy a new car (but not sell my 4Runner!) and I'm paying cash for it. I'm getting a G37 Coupe, 6-speed manual with navigation and premium packages. The sticker price is $44K, but I can buy it for invoice price, plus a $3000 rebate (manufacturer to dealer), so I can only thank the poor economy for me being able to get this awesome car for about $8000 less than MSRP. If I was really worried about the economy, I wouldn't be dropping that kind of cash on a new car that I don't need. It's more of a weekend toy than anything else. But the fact that I'm buying it pretty much says that I'm not worried about the economy. It will recover.

Fair enough, Ive all the things you mention however :surfer: As far as food shortages and martial law, I can see it happening in response to a natural disaster, pandemic, or coordinated terrorist attack but not much else. Society in general is pretty fragile though what with just in time inventory management and all. So it wouldnt take much to disrupt supplies of food, fuel, and critical supplies when you really think about it. Katrina and the LA riots are just a couple examples of how a small localized event can turn into a huge cluster and impact the rest of the country. As well as how people can devolve into animals.

Just for shits and giggles, you should check out shadowstats.com. Its a very interesting website that shines some light on how the govt changes the numbers around. The really funny thing is he uses actual govt methods from before they changed them. Things like CPI, PPI, GDP, unemployment, etc the govt changed the way they calculated them in the early 90's, so he uses the methods from the 80's and its pretty enlightening to see how bogus the gov numbers are even by their own old ways of figuring it out.

Grats on the G, I had a 370Z for all of 2 months before I got back into a 4Runner.

I'm sure it will. But if you look at the last two holidays season prior to this one, sales were also very poor. Merchants haven't had strong holiday season sales for at least three years. It's obvious that this year will not be their saving grace because we've been in a recession for over a year now.

BTW, this has been the longest recession in history. The last big recession was in 2001 after the collapse of the dot.com bubble, 9/11, and all those accounting scandals (Enron, WorldCom) hit us. We pulled out of that one and we'll pull out of this one.

I think this one will be much much worse. And I still think were going to have a double dip once the govt removes all the stimulus, then once all the resets hit in a couple years time things will get really interesting for sure.

I would argue that we didnt pull ourselves out of it, the fed dropped the rates and fueled the housing "boom" This recession is different from every post war recession in that it is credit driven, not supply driven. The last credit driven contraction we had was...wait for it...the depression.

How much is the U.S. in debt? I haven't seen nor heard that it's getting lesser but deeper in debt.

Current debt ceiling is 12.1 trillion, were going to hit that in well under 6 months I think at the rate were going. Current budget deficit is 1.4 tril, trade deficit has dropped to around 25 bil/month, CBO projects budget deficits of 1 tril+ for the next 10 years. So were set to double the national debt and GDP WILL NOT rise correspondingly.
 
How much is the U.S. in debt? I haven't seen nor heard that it's getting lesser but deeper in debt.

National Debt has been increasing for years now...many years. How has it been possible that we've been able to sustain all that debt for all those years? Think about it....

The Cliffs Notes version is that we can sustain it because we can afford it. To put it very simply, when you apply for a mortgage, an underwriter looks at your income to determine the amount you can afford to mortgage. Well, it's then reasonable to compare the U.S. national debt with the U.S. Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to get a real sense of the amount of debt our country can carry.

Is it out of line or out of control? Some may think so, but in reality it is similar to other countries. I believe our nation debt is approximately 60% of our GDP. Canada and France both have a higher percentage than ours. I believe Italy and Japan are both well over 100%. That's right, their debt is HIGHER than their GDP. And you think we've got problems...

But I'm not making light of the fact that our national debt is too high. People like to focus on the actual number instead of the percentage. If you compare the numbers, it seems very high...much higher than other countries. But keep in mind that our GDP is the highest in the world, so we can afford more debt than anyone else on the planet.
 
This thread is making me into a bipolar person...reading Toytech's posts makes me happy...then, reading GMZ's posts makes me sad again.... :D Where's the ice cream bucket??

I hear australia is doing well...

Well what do you guys think? I think were in for a double dip at best and we will go down to the second half of the W in the next 6 months after an abysmal Christmas season.

Edit: If you vote, please give a quick run down of why.

where are retail sales minus auto sales ytd?
 
BTW, I recently decided to buy a new car (but not sell my 4Runner!) and I'm paying cash for it. I'm getting a G37 Coupe, 6-speed manual with navigation and premium packages. The sticker price is $44K, but I can buy it for invoice price, plus a $3000 rebate (manufacturer to dealer), so I can only thank the poor economy for me being able to get this awesome car for about $8000 less than MSRP. If I was really worried about the economy, I wouldn't be dropping that kind of cash on a new car that I don't need. It's more of a weekend toy than anything else. But the fact that I'm buying it pretty much says that I'm not worried about the economy. It will recover.

How is you buying a car equal to the economy being good?? I could equally assume that you are very bad at managing your money?? :moping:

BTW, congrats on your new car!! G37 is an excellent "bargain"...it is downright a steal compare to its competitors!
 
National Debt has been increasing for years now...many years. How has it been possible that we've been able to sustain all that debt for all those years? Think about it....

The Cliffs Notes version is that we can sustain it because we can afford it. To put it very simply, when you apply for a mortgage, an underwriter looks at your income to determine the amount you can afford to mortgage. Well, it's then reasonable to compare the U.S. national debt with the U.S. Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to get a real sense of the amount of debt our country can carry.

Is it out of line or out of control? Some may think so, but in reality it is similar to other countries. I believe our nation debt is approximately 60% of our GDP. Canada and France both have a higher percentage than ours. I believe Italy and Japan are both well over 100%. That's right, their debt is HIGHER than their GDP. And you think we've got problems...

But I'm not making light of the fact that our national debt is too high. People like to focus on the actual number instead of the percentage. If you compare the numbers, it seems very high...much higher than other countries. But keep in mind that our GDP is the highest in the world, so we can afford more debt than anyone else on the planet.

Even if you take a GDP of 14.3 tril (dreaming) and bouch it off of the national debt of 11.9 tril its what low 80's? The problem isnt if we can afford it, its if once we get close to 100% debt:GDP will Treasuries get downgraded from AAA. AAA is the best rating a security can have and allows the lowest borrowing cost. Deficits are projected to add about 10 tril to the debt over the next 10 years. I obviously highly doubt were going to be experiencing anywhere near say 5% growth in GDP over that time so I see a downgrade and currency crisis in the future. The debt doesnt cover unfunded obligations like Soc Sec Medicare Medicaid if it did the debt would be 70 trillion.

An interesting read by Karl Denninger can be found here about the debt trap were in re debt:GDP. Pretty damn scary using very hopeful conservative numbers, even assuming that we return to positive growth.

I hear australia is doing well...



where are retail sales minus auto sales ytd?

They raised rates by .25%, dont know about them doing well though.

Here is the Advance report for August orders and deliverys are down, some worse than others

BTW, I recently decided to buy a new car (but not sell my 4Runner!) and I'm paying cash for it. I'm getting a G37 Coupe, 6-speed manual with navigation and premium packages. The sticker price is $44K, but I can buy it for invoice price, plus a $3000 rebate (manufacturer to dealer), so I can only thank the poor economy for me being able to get this awesome car for about $8000 less than MSRP. If I was really worried about the economy, I wouldn't be dropping that kind of cash on a new car that I don't need. It's more of a weekend toy than anything else. But the fact that I'm buying it pretty much says that I'm not worried about the economy. It will recover.

Id like to revisit this for a moment. Its obvious that you have steady employment, low debt burden, and ample savings. You are in a great minority among the population, Im in a similarly fortunate position right now in that Im not affected by the economy for the same reasons and the mild deflation Im seeing is actually a good thing. Even during the depression the people who had no debt and a job with a little savings (75% of people btw) made an absolute killing buying things at rock bottom prices. Im waiting for things to crash so I can swoop in and not unlike the steal you got on your G, buy things for pennies on the dollar (figure of speech).
 
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Lets not forget about the "home equity well" drying up. Instead of having bona fide savings, consumers were using home equity lines as substitute for savings. The trillions of lost equity in this country has had a drastic effect on spending and a major cause for the slow recovery. Not that I'm advocating that all consumers should peg out their helocs, but it eliminates a major source of funding for home improvements, cars, college ed... etc. This is a major reason why sales are slow, and why contractors and housing related jobs are way down.

In some of the hardest hit real estate markets, it will be nearly 20 years before home prices return to the peak levels seen in '07
 
How is you buying a car equal to the economy being good?? I could equally assume that you are very bad at managing your money?? :moping:

BTW, congrats on your new car!! G37 is an excellent "bargain"...it is downright a steal compare to its competitors!


I think you missed my point, which was that I myself am not worried that we are headed for an economic collapse, which is evident by my decision to purchase a $40K toy. If I truly believed that our economy was headed for a collapse, I wouldn't be dumping $40K on a new car that I don't need.

BTW, if I was bad at managing my money, I wouldn't have $40K cash to buy a new car, would I? LOL
 
5 The banking industry is no more stable that it was before all this. The FASB rule for mark to market has been suspended allowing the banks to hold loans on their books at full value instead of marking them down to what the market will pay (on average 30% mark down). The banks have also been extending the time it takes to be in default from 90 days to up to 180 days for some banks and they wont foreclose and evict for a year or more! All this so that they will not have to take the loss on the loan and dump more supply into the housing market.

A few months back they did that stress test and the government said, overall the banking industry is in good shape. Is there anything to that report, or is it all fiction?
 
I think you missed my point, which was that I myself am not worried that we are headed for an economic collapse, which is evident by my decision to purchase a $40K toy. If I truly believed that our economy was headed for a collapse, I wouldn't be dumping $40K on a new car that I don't need.

BTW, if I was bad at managing my money, I wouldn't have $40K cash to buy a new car, would I? LOL

Don't get me wrong, but you're still a guy i met over the internet. I am sure that there are still egg-headed people who bought new cars in this day and age using cash that they either do not have or cash from their savings. I know of people who spent $60k on a BMW M3 (cash) but live in a rundown apartment. So, by you saying that you have full confidence in the economy and how you just spent $40k on a car does not really mean much in other people's eyes. Again, i am not trying to be an arse...just pointing out the obvious i guess.

BTW, i am currently in the market for a new vehicle too...but for my father as a gift. Not anything like what you just bought...i am getting him a Honda Element. However, my financial prosperity means absolutely nothing over the net because i may be living the poor house as far as anyone cares. I usually leave personal financial balance out of discussions like this.
 
Well, all I can say is that the money I'm using for the car is disposable. It won't make or break me. I own a home with a very small (<$100K) mortgage left on it. I have no other debt at all. I have enough cash in my savings account to pay off my mortgage and buy the car....I've always been the kind of person who maintains a separate "emergency" account that will allow me to survive (pay all my bills) without a job for a minimum of 12 months. I would never tap into that account unless I absolutely had to. My other account is called my "FU" account that I can use for whatever I feel like buying. That's where my G37 money is coming from.

Now if I really believed we were in for a seriously long recession (or even a depression), I'd really rather not mess with the FU account money because it might be needed for something more important! But that's just my take on it.
 
GMZ, what do you think about the potential move away from the dollar?

I think our moronic energy policies, massive debt and move away from the dollar will prove to be the "final straw" that gives us a lost decade or two. We probably deserve it for setting policy and direction on political correctness and corruption rather than integrity and common sense.


We should sell energy to the world. We drill, refine and produce it cleaner than anybody else. (George Soros and his multi-million dollar investment in the Brazillian oil company kills me. He takes his money and lobbies to stop energy here then does that...)


What is your take on the commercial real-estate? I think that hasn't come anywhere close to the crash it is setup for. ARM loans, no income due to poor retail/commerce in general and much of it was purchased/built at the height of the market.
 
Dow closed over 10,000. Haven't seen that for more than a year now....

S&P is up

NASDAQ is up.

Intel reported much better gains than expected. Looks like computer sales are rising again.

JPMorgan Chase reported profits of $3.59 billion for the July-September period.


____________________________

Just sayin'.... I like to spread the good news, not the doom & gloom! LOL
 
Lets not forget about the "home equity well" drying up. Instead of having bona fide savings, consumers were using home equity lines as substitute for savings. The trillions of lost equity in this country has had a drastic effect on spending and a major cause for the slow recovery. Not that I'm advocating that all consumers should peg out their helocs, but it eliminates a major source of funding for home improvements, cars, college ed... etc. This is a major reason why sales are slow, and why contractors and housing related jobs are way down.

In some of the hardest hit real estate markets, it will be nearly 20 years before home prices return to the peak levels seen in '07

Both HELOC's and 2nd mortgages really advanced the spending that everyone was doing. I personally dont see the logic in thinking a home is anything more than a place to live. People treating their houses like ATM's and pulling equity out to juggle credit cards, buy cars, take vacations all deserve this as they brought it on themselves. You brought up "peak levels" why is that a good thing necessarily that prices keep going up? That just means that less people will be able to truly afford a home. By afford I dont mean be able to take out a fancy mortgage, but be able to put 20% down and have a 3:1 debt to income ratio after it all. There is an unbelievable amount of people that are maybe 1 or 2 months away from being delinquent or bankrupt. House prices rising into the stratosphere causes more harm than good.

Heres Moody's opinion on same store retail. Ill try and dig up a graph or two.
Moody%27s%20comp%20stores_0.jpg


A few months back they did that stress test and the government said, overall the banking industry is in good shape. Is there anything to that report, or is it all fiction?

Pure fiction and accounting gimmicks.
-This quarterly report shows that WF has over $100 billion in second mortgage/HELOCs. At the rate of foreclosure the first lien isnt even being satisfied so all the second liens will be de facto toast. The banks are in a fit that they cant modify 2nd's Ref this article, they hold over $1 trillion in seconds alone! Ill wager 75% will go poof if not more.
The Market Ticker really blew open the sham with official data, Ill link a few of the posts over there. 1 2 3 4

GMZ, what do you think about the potential move away from the dollar?

I think our moronic energy policies, massive debt and move away from the dollar will prove to be the "final straw" that gives us a lost decade or two. We probably deserve it for setting policy and direction on political correctness and corruption rather than integrity and common sense.


We should sell energy to the world. We drill, refine and produce it cleaner than anybody else. (George Soros and his multi-million dollar investment in the Brazillian oil company kills me. He takes his money and lobbies to stop energy here then does that...)


What is your take on the commercial real-estate? I think that hasn't come anywhere close to the crash it is setup for. ARM loans, no income due to poor retail/commerce in general and much of it was purchased/built at the height of the market.

Call me an alarmist but I think its a real possibility. It wont happen overnight, but soon enough the day will come. It starts We were trusted to maintain the world's reserve currency in 1944, and we have debauched it royally. According the govt (and they always pad the numbers) what cost $100 in 1945 costs $1200 today! Hows that for holding value? Dollar devaluation calculator

Commercial real estate is frightening. The first graph is bad for 2 reasons. It tracks the resets in the mortgages that are contained in commercial mortgage backed securities (CMBS). So its a double threat that when the loans reset there will be commercial foreclosures with the losses that entails, and the losses on the CMBS which occupy the banks' balance sheets. Commercial RE usually is just rolled over continually, but in this market environment I see that being difficult. And if you looks at the dates, we should be slammed with the resets right after all the ALT-A/Option ARM loans reset in the next few years. Lost decade is the best case scenario.
mbs.jpg

Commercial_Real_Estate.jpg


Dow closed over 10,000. Haven't seen that for more than a year now....

S&P is up

NASDAQ is up.

Intel reported much better gains than expected. Looks like computer sales are rising again.

JPMorgan Chase reported profits of $3.59 billion for the July-September period.


____________________________

Just sayin'.... I like to spread the good news, not the doom & gloom! LOL

I gave my opinion on why the markets are rising. Look at the volume of only a handful of stocks and its 75% all in a half dozen stocks. Something is rotten in Denmark, or is it Manhattan? And even though they are up 50%+, you are still down over 30% and once you factor in dollar devaluation over the past 10 years you are at 1997 levels. If the DOW is up to 10K but the dollar is worth 25% less is it DOW at 7500 or 10K? It all ties in, and things are in fact getting worse over a broad based view of the markets and economy in general.

I wish I had your optimism, I really did. I dont want things to get really bad but all Ive seen and researched in the past couple years has led me to believe its coming. So Im positioned well for it. When I was deployed to Africa in the summer of 07 I was giddy thinking that I would have about $25K to put into some emerging market ETF's when I got back. I dont know what happened but I started reading the contrarian investors and had a 180. When I got back in Sep 07 I advised people (mainly my folks) to get out of stocks because they were going to crash and real estate was going to blow up. I bought gold. I think they were seriously worried about me. Now they ask for my advice. Its funny to see old clips of CNBC with people like Paul and Schiff calling for a disaster and being laughed off stage, literally. Just like that chart of the 30's.
 
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To me this is awesome! Thank-you for sharing your passion/expertise.

No sweat, update is above. I dont really have any expertise just some passion. I dont even want you guys to think Im the right one, just do some thinking for yourselves and realize that maybe things arent as they seem. I came really close to making a big mistake with my money and I realized it just in time (literally to the month).
 
The worst may be yet to come.

" For eight years under president George W. Bush, the U.S. ran large deficits, borrowing abroad to pay domestic debts. Since the recession struck, the deficits have exploded, as has the necessary borrowing.

The Congressional Budget Office recently pegged the 2009 deficit at $1.6-trillion (U.S.) and the 2010 deficit at $1.4-trillion. For the next 10 years, 2010 to 2019, the CBO forecast accumulated deficits of $7-trillion. Beyond 2019, it says, “the budget remains on an unsustainable basis.”

Many are the uncertainties and perils of this parlous economic time, but none are greater than how the United States, a declining superpower, will respond to this fiscal nightmare.

In theory, the U.S. could raise taxes and/or reduce spending, measures that along with a return to some semblance of normal economic growth would lower the deficit and the country's debt-to-GDP ratio. Such measures would stabilize, even possibly strengthen, the U.S. dollar.

In practice, Congress has repeatedly shown itself to be adept at cutting taxes and raising spending, and hopeless at raising taxes and cutting spending. Moreover, President Barack Obama was elected on a promise not to raise taxes on anyone earning less than $250,000 a year. He also promised a wide range of new spending measures, some of which must now be parked, given the severity of the deficit/debt problem.

Couple this massive borrowing with a chronic trade deficit, and the U.S. dollar will fall, and keep falling. It has already lost slightly more than 10 per cent of its value since the spring against a basket of other currencies. Given the U.S. deficits on budget, trade, current account and petroleum, there is little to keep the U.S. dollar from losing more relative value.

The great sucking sound that the world hears is that of the United States taking money from abroad to pay for its choices. But it is becoming increasingly clear that lending countries are hedging their bets, if not beginning to lose complete confidence in the ability and/or willingness of the U.S. political system, and of the wider society, to curb spending and borrowing, or to raise taxes.

These lenders, China in the lead, are using dollars to invest widely around the world in commodities and other long-term supplies.

While the U.S. borrows, China lends and invests, a long-term recipe for changed power relations in the world.

What adds to the dangerous imbalances in the world economy is the refusal of the Chinese authorities to allow their currency to float freely. The Chinese manage their currency, while other countries allow theirs to float, so that the Chinese yuan remains artificially low and Chinese exports are more advantageously priced.

Given the unwillingness and/or inability of Americans to face hard choices, they will be tempted to make others pay the price, which will mean accepting a much lower dollar and allowing inflation to rise, so that the foreigners holding U.S. dollars will have a depreciated asset.

The Americans did this once before, and it seems at least probable, if not certain, that they will do it again. Fearing this option, holders of U.S. dollars will be tempted to convert them to another currency, dump them, or, at the very least, accumulate fewer of them.

Alas, the fiscal imbalances of the United States will weigh on the world economy, with uncertainties for all others, until that country demonstrates a willingness and ability to come to grips with itself."
 

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