Is there anything we can do to bumb the performance on the 4.0?

[Donovan1]

Well then why ask the question?

Why not get to know your vehicle's inherent capabilities?

The short answer: anything is possible with the right amount of money.

The long answer: there is no simple and relatively cheap way to add any significant amount of horsepower to the 5th gen 4runner. Toyota discontinued the TRD supercharger program (and the existing superchargers don't work with the 5th gen's engine) and the TRD CAI and exhaust add negligible power, if any at all.

Have you never in your life gotten a second opinion? Do you only ever ask a single friend every question? Have you ever looked for something only to find you answer from a different source? I don't know why you'd get on my case if you didn't read my post though??

That's why.

 

[Donovan1]

Yup, TRD rated it about 550ft.lbs of torque. Hence why I am so interested in swapping one into my 4th gen (since the J120 & J150 platforms are essentially the same dimensions, if it can be done in a 4th it can be done in a 5th; the main issue is the electronics/modules.)



It won't fit the frames are too different and you'd have to cut up the body to do it; I'd say it's more effort to do that and to fit the drive train on the frame. I'll be honest, if they sold the LandCruiser in a larger variety of trims like they do overseas; I'd have probably bought one. I just didn't feel the need to spend $80k on a vehicle that I'd spend extra money and time to decontent $40k worth of crap I don't want/need.

I'd have a Landcruiser if I could afford one. I'm not super fond of all the luxo crap, but they are bigger and are beasts. My dad always had one, but they became too expensive eventually. Grew up in real FJs which is why I'm a Toyota man today and have a quazi Landcuiser FJ in the FJ Cruiser. We looked at the GX hard and found a used 2015 but just couldn't justify the extra $10k and poor fuel economy for a used GX vs the TEP T4R. Given unlimited funds, I'd be in a Landcruiser in a second.

 

[wfo9]

Simple short answer here... the issue is....It's a Toyota.

They cannot be tune... period... Only option is to replace or piggyback the ECU and that is a major PITA and far from ideal for someone wanting to add a little power.

The reason relates back to Toyotas lack of support for aftermarket performance. Other companies want people to use their engines in performance applications... (they sell crate engines via a performance division...) so they leak out and enable ECU calibration via aftermarket tools. Toyota is not that company and never will be. TRD once attempted to tap this market a bit with SC kits, but they are 100% external accessories only at this point.

 

[Doomsday]

Sorry but even GM admitted to failures it not some BS it's just a fact! Other than that I am still an LS fan!

x2 Happen to my friend, dropped valve. LS fan here too.

 

[voodoolord]

We just closed on a 15 limited tonight and this was the thread I was looking for after looking at all the lift info. Im kind of bummed there are no real performance gains. At 270 HP I kinda figured there was some mods for higher HP but I didn't bother looking. I have a Subaru Forester that is running 300+ HP with a forged engine I built and is quite a bit lighter than the T4R. Its really not that big of a deal because the reason we bought it was for the reliability and as a daily driver for my wife but I can never keep my hands off of tweaking more out of a rig. I should have realized you couldn't squeeze much out of a NA engine but I know headers make a big difference on a 460 with appropriate carb tuning. Oh well they weren't made to be race trucks.

 

[Dalko43]

Simple short answer here... the issue is....It's a Toyota.

They cannot be tune... period... Only option is to replace or piggyback the ECU and that is a major PITA and far from ideal for someone wanting to add a little power.

I don't even know what an ECU tune or piggyback (by itself) would even add...this isn't a turbo engine we are talking about here where we can simply increase the boost. Rather it's naturally aspirated. The conventional approach to creating more power with these types of engines is putting on an enhanced cold air intake (I still don't know what the TRD CAI is adding over the stock one), an enhanced exhaust, headers and a tune (normally all at once, so they compliment one another).

No one, including TRD, is creating that kind of stuff for the 4runner. And even if there was aftermarket support for that type of stuff, it would be a high $ point for maybe a 20-30HP bump and likely lower fuel economy. Of course the $ to reward ratio is a highly subjective issue.

 

[wfo9]

I don't even know what an ECU tune or piggyback (by itself) would even add...this isn't a turbo engine we are talking about here where we can simply increase the boost. Rather it's naturally aspirated. The conventional approach to creating more power with these types of engines is putting on an enhanced cold air intake (I still don't know what the TRD CAI is adding over the stock one), an enhanced exhaust, headers and a tune (normally all at once, so they compliment one another).

No one, including TRD, is creating that kind of stuff for the 4runner. And even if there was aftermarket support for that type of stuff, it would be a high $ point for maybe a 20-30HP bump and likely lower fuel economy. Of course the $ to reward ratio is a highly subjective issue.

Not sure what you are trying to say.

Bottom line, no way to tune the engine, therefore no way to really bump the usable power much.

Tuning is the key to any EFI motor NA or FI. One might think that it would just react properly to an increase in airflow read by the MAF... This is somewhat true, but there are so many limiters and tq mgt mechanisms in the ECU, plus inherit errors in the MAF readings, that you won't get the full potential of any change. I bet most 5th gen owners would be 100% satisfied with just a tune to get the max out of the 1grfe. But we will never know what that potential is, so not really worth further discussion. IMHO, there is some severe oddness going on with the ECU.

 

[Bevo]

Bottom line, no way to tune the engine, therefore no way to really bump the usable power much.

there are so many limiters and tq mgt mechanisms in the ECU

But we will never know what that potential is, so not really worth further discussion.

This right here^

 

[Donovan1]

Not sure what you are trying to say.

Bottom line, no way to tune the engine, therefore no way to really bump the usable power much.

Tuning is the key to any EFI motor NA or FI. One might think that it would just react properly to an increase in airflow read by the MAF... This is somewhat true, but there are so many limiters and tq mgt mechanisms in the ECU, plus inherit errors in the MAF readings, that you won't get the full potential of any change. I bet most 5th gen owners would be 100% satisfied with just a tune to get the max out of the 1grfe. But we will never know what that potential is, so not really worth further discussion. IMHO, there is some severe oddness going on with the ECU.

Yes. I believe an open exhaust and a tune would be fantastic. Even adding 20-30 HP for $500 or so would be worth it. I don't understand why Toyota won't allow a single thing to be done to the motors. I assume as is Toyota's usual build directive, the motor is probably capable of 5 million HP but it's castrated and dumped in a heavy truck. It will last to 500K miles, but there really IS a market for some tuning. Are you listening Toyota?!?!?

 

[1engineer]

Yes. I believe an open exhaust and a tune would be fantastic. Even adding 20-30 HP for $500 or so would be worth it. I don't understand why Toyota won't allow a single thing to be done to the motors. I assume as is Toyota's usual build directive, the motor is probably capable of 5 million HP but it's castrated and dumped in a heavy truck. It will last to 500K miles, but there really IS a market for some tuning. Are you listening Toyota?!?!?

Counterpoint:
"Toyota, thank you for listening to me and 95% of your target market. I appreciate you building a reliable and durable vehicle that can be used on and off road. So I can't make power mods. Big deal. If that is what it takes to offer me a dependable vehicle at a decent price then I am all for it. Those who want to mod and get more power can find more power in GM, Jeep and Ford vehicles."

Now, I have been reading posts here for around five years. Almost every failure or problem I have read about here has been on a modded 4Runner. I can only think of a few that have happened on a bone stock unit. Coincidence? I think not. Even the dreaded TRD Pro suspension clunk is on a TRD modded vehicle.

 

[Jetboy]

Something else to consider: resale value. When I buy a used 4runner, I know that someone hasn't tuned the engine, because they can't. As a potential buyer that adds value for me. One of many reasons I would have a very hard time buying a used STI for example or a turbo BMW unless I had very good background information on the vehicle and owner/s. Diesel trucks are the same thing. The easier they are to tune, the less I want a used one. With a Toyota I really don't have to worry about that.

 

[Donovan1]

Counterpoint:
"Toyota, thank you for listening to me and 95% of your target market. I appreciate you building a reliable and durable vehicle that can be used on and off road. So I can't make power mods. Big deal. If that is what it takes to offer me a dependable vehicle at a decent price then I am all for it. Those who want to mod and get more power can find more power in GM, Jeep and Ford vehicles."

Why would I want a GM, Jeep, or Ford? I want a Toyota. They sell niche cars like the FJ, Landcruiser and even the 4Runner to a very small market segment. They race a "Camry" in NASCAR and they have plenty of offroad and desert trucks that are sales and advertising platforms. Why not have an actual performance division?
I'm not sure why you are arguing the counterpoint. If you don't want to mod anything, that's cool. Don't bite me because I do though.

 

[Donovan1]

Something else to consider: resale value. When I buy a used 4runner, I know that someone hasn't tuned the engine, because they can't. As a potential buyer that adds value for me. One of many reasons I would have a very hard time buying a used STI for example or a turbo BMW unless I had very good background information on the vehicle and owner/s. Diesel trucks are the same thing. The easier they are to tune, the less I want a used one. With a Toyota I really don't have to worry about that.

That is true, but Toyota really doesn't have to worry about your resale value as they don't make money off of it. Other than in the sense that you may buy a 4Runner in part based on it's position as #1 in resale value in the US.

It could very well be a selling point. The 3rd gen guys sell the rig with the TRD supercharger all the time.

 

[1engineer]

Why would I want a GM, Jeep, or Ford? I want a Toyota. They sell niche cars like the FJ, Landcruiser and even the 4Runner to a very small market segment. They race a "Camry" in NASCAR and they have plenty of offroad and desert trucks that are sales and advertising platforms. Why not have an actual performance division?
I'm not sure why you are arguing the counterpoint. If you don't want to mod anything, that's cool. Don't bite me because I do though.

Because, by your own admission, you want what is unobtainable which makes the argument a moot point. Toyota does not offer a tunable ECU. No amount of posting will change that. No matter what you do to the 4Runner you will not gain more than a few hp, unless you spend serious cash which you already said you won't. I offered up the cheap way to do it (strip weight, small tires) and you don't want to do that either nor does anyone else. Gearing will help in the torque department and that's it.

Toyota is the largest OEM vehicle manufacturer in the world. They have a business model that is far different than Jeep, Ford and GM. The big difference is Toyota (and Honda and a few others) make the lion's share of profit (remember "invoice" is not what it cost to manufacture, it's just an amount) on new vehicle sales, hence the very little rebate or large discount offers on new vehicle sales. FMC, GM and to some extent Ford make their money in aftermarket, parts and service. Two different business models. GM, for example, wants you to tune the hell out of your vehicles. They want you to buy that crate motor. Why? Because they KNOW odds are you will break something, mess up something or need something else and dollar signs light up in their eyes at the repeat customer business. Same for Jeep. Their aftermarket and OEM parts sales is the only thing keeping them in the black. Toyota? They make their money up front and want you to come back in 3-5 years to give them more money for a new vehicle, not parts for that one you just bought. Different business models.

Don't tell me you fall for the 'ol "Rugged off road look at me I'm a macho man because I drive a truck that can pull the space shuttle and a 4Runner that can take me so deep in the Bayou I can get snake bit and only find a guy who I can't understand tell me the snake's harmless marketing and advertising crap do you?" Look at the companies and how they make money. Then you understand why they do the things they do.

Lastly, the 4Runner is not a "small market segment vehicle." You would be surprised how many popular vehicles "only" sell 80K units a year. Land Cruiser sells several hundred thousand units globally. FJ? Yeah, it was a small market loser which is why it is discontinued now.

 

[TheWraith]

Speed costs money son. How fast do you want to go?

If you have some deep pockets take it to a pro and have a custom turbo put on it. It will cost a bundle but you will have more than enough power gain to satisfy yourself.

My girlfriend has a 2015 Ford Edge Sport with the twin turbo 2.7L EcoBoost @ 315 HP/350 ft lbs torque.

Trust me. That little crossover flat shits and gets with it. I have driven many V-8's that seem lame compared to it.

Why am I talking about the Edge? Because if Ford can squeeze 315 HP out of a tiny 2.7L motor even a mild amount of boost on the 4.0 Toyota will put it well over 300 HP with no internal mods.

But... You are going to have to drop some dime and time to do it. ;-)

The problem seriously with this comment is this...

Ford ecu can be hacked and tune or reflashed... Toyota's ecu = Good Luck Joe!!! 1997 + Toyota Ecu's are uncrackable unless your Toyota or TRD themselves.

ps. I need to have some money free up in my paypal and I'll order the URD Y pipe. Make a custom inconel heat shield protect the transfer case and then go to the dyno with it ...

 

[Dalko43]

Toyota is the largest OEM vehicle manufacturer in the world. They have a business model that is far different than Jeep, Ford and GM. The big difference is Toyota (and Honda and a few others) make the lion's share of profit (remember "invoice" is not what it cost to manufacture, it's just an amount) on new vehicle sales, hence the very little rebate or large discount offers on new vehicle sales. FMC, GM and to some extent Ford make their money in aftermarket, parts and service. Two different business models. GM, for example, wants you to tune the hell out of your vehicles. They want you to buy that crate motor. Why? Because they KNOW odds are you will break something, mess up something or need something else and dollar signs light up in their eyes at the repeat customer business. Same for Jeep. Their aftermarket and OEM parts sales is the only thing keeping them in the black. Toyota? They make their money up front and want you to come back in 3-5 years to give them more money for a new vehicle, not parts for that one you just bought. Different business models.

That whole paragraph is extremely subjective and full of assumptions (some might even say inaccurate ones).

Are you really suggesting that GM, Jeep and Ford purposely build their vehicles and cater to the aftermarket crowd simply so stuff can break and they can make more sales?

And where is this proof that Jeep's aftermarket sales is the only thing keeping it in the black?

I'm not a Chevy fan by any stretch, but the reason their LS crate engines and performance parts (among other manufacturer offerings) are so widely sold is because they offer reliable amounts of torque and power, at a relatively cheap price point.

I think the real reason that Toyota removed itself from the aftermarket/modding scene is because they know that companies like Jeep, Ford and GM already have a firm grip on those markets (here in the US). Toyota doesn't want to spend the time and resources to try and compete. It seems in other places though (like Australia) there is a thriving aftermarket scene for Toyota vehicles (not OEM, but still there seems to be better aftermarket support).

 

[Jetboy]

That is true, but Toyota really doesn't have to worry about your resale value as they don't make money off of it. Other than in the sense that you may buy a 4Runner in part based on it's position as #1 in resale value in the US.

It could very well be a selling point. The 3rd gen guys sell the rig with the TRD supercharger all the time.

I think most toyota sales today are directly driven by 20yr old products and the reputation that is based on those old vehicles. Resale value is a reflection of that as well. It all kinda works together.

FWIW there are stand alone ECUs that can manage dual VVTI and even have pretty solid baseline maps for valve timing. But it'd take weeks or months with an engine on a dyno all set up with stock components to first reverse engineer the algorithm used by Toyota or some approximation of it and sort out what inputs trigger what outputs and how each flows through the model. Then start by incrementally adjusting various outputs to identify where power can be found and what you're giving up to do so. There may well be incremental or even significant power to be found by doing this in conjunction with a larger MAP sensor and exhaust. But I think you'd spend hundreds or thousands of hours to achieve very small gains. I'm sure toyota has done a lot of this type of research to achieve its optimal balance of power, mpg, emissions, and longevity.

If you are willing to strip it down and build with new internals, you could probably use a piggy back ECU of some sort to manage the dual VVTi and the fuel and spark, but it will probably be $$$. If the 3.5L crank were strong enough, you could use the shorter stroke and significantly reduce compression for running lots of boost. But I kinda doubt that is the case.

 

[1engineer]

That whole paragraph is extremely subjective and full of assumptions (some might even say inaccurate ones).

Are you really suggesting that GM, Jeep and Ford purposely build their vehicles and cater to the aftermarket crowd simply so stuff can break and they can make more sales?

And where is this proof that Jeep's aftermarket sales is the only thing keeping it in the black?

I'm not a Chevy fan by any stretch, but the reason their LS crate engines and performance parts (among other manufacturer offerings) are so widely sold is because they offer reliable amounts of torque and power, at a relatively cheap price point.

I think the real reason that Toyota removed itself from the aftermarket/modding scene is because they know that companies like Jeep, Ford and GM already have a firm grip on those markets (here in the US). Toyota doesn't want to spend the time and resources to try and compete. It seems in other places though (like Australia) there is a thriving aftermarket scene for Toyota vehicles (not OEM, but still there seems to be better aftermarket support).

Actually the data from that paragraph appeared in Forbes a few years ago along with what the average profit was for every new unit vehicle sold for all major manufacturers. They also broke down the percentages of new vehicles, parts, service and aftermarket as it applied to gross profit for these OEMs. From that the article they discussed the different business models and the merits of each. I assure you there is data to back up my post.

If Toyota decided to "step in" to the aftermarket world then they would have to change their successful business model. Why would they do that.

The proof is in the five year stock performance growth-
Toyota stock 5 yr: $70 to $124
GM stock 5 yr: $34.26 to $34.96
Ford stock 5 yr: $14.13 to $14.88

Really if you look at total aftermarket (that includes OEM parts, performance parts, service) sales as a percentage as it correlates to total sales of the company you can easily see the strategy yourself. Lose money on new units and make it up in aftermarket or make money on new units and lose on aftermarket. The stock prices don't lie.

 

[Donovan1]

I think most toyota sales today are directly driven by 20yr old products and the reputation that is based on those old vehicles. Resale value is a reflection of that as well. It all kinda works together.

I would agree to some extend, but I would also say that I still have less issues and feel the vehicles are better engineered than any other brand we have had in the family... Especially Jeep. Ford seems to be putting together an actual effort though, and Honda of course is usually flawless, but has no real trucks. I did LOVE our Subaru too, but only had it for three years.

I don't think anything ever will compare to my 3rd gen T4R though. Perfect blend of old school tough and simple with just enough modern refinement. Loved that truck.

 

[Dalko43]

Actually the data from that paragraph appeared in Forbes a few years ago along with what the average profit was for every new unit vehicle sold for all major manufacturers. They also broke down the percentages of new vehicles, parts, service and aftermarket as it applied to gross profit for these OEMs. From that the article they discussed the different business models and the merits of each. I assure you there is data to back up my post.

Please provide a link to that article. I'd be interested in seeing what it actually sets out to prove.

The proof is in the five year stock performance growth-
Toyota stock 5 yr: $70 to $124
GM stock 5 yr: $34.26 to $34.96
Ford stock 5 yr: $14.13 to $14.88

There are few different factors that go into determining a company's price per share (for public stock). An increased price per share, does not necessarily mean that the company is actually increasing its profits (and vice versa).

Also, GM and Ford were both heavily leveraged (still are) and relied on government loans and share purchases (in GM's case) to weather the last economic crisis. As a result, market demand and investor confidence in those companies have only recently started to increase, despite the fact that their production and sales numbers have drastically increased since the 2009 crisis.

In summary, throwing out a few stock prices doesn't really prove much. You'd have to show actual sales numbers and corporate balance sheets to make your case.