Ive a question about front spring/shock combinations....

[opie74]

Yes, I have searched and done some reading. Everything that follows will be comparing the what I have now to Bilstein 5100's.

My current set-up is OME 881/90004 in the front and 890/Monroe in the rear.

The front is to stiff for MI roads. With the amount of pre-load on the springs, there is very little give in the springs. I like the height it is sitting at, just want softer. I am happy with where the rear is at, but I think the shocks are a little to stiff. I believe they are valved for an FJ80, I cannot remember.

I read all of @%1; http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/101758-**rickashays-ome-vs-trd-tundra-lc-review**.html and it is ver informative and basically exactly where I am coming from and want to go.

However, since there always have to be a caveat, I stumbled across this one http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...-comparison-tacoma-5100s-vs-tundra-5100s.html. The only issue I can find here is there is no direct comparison between the two shocks. Since everything is subjective, its difficult take away a valid "comparison" between the real world feel of the Tacoma Bilstein and the Tundra counterpart.

What I would like to do is not spend money if I do not need to, and hence my questions.

I think the valving between the Tacoma shock and the 4runner shock would be similar. I have heard that the Tacoma is heavier in the front, but it can not be so much that it makes a large difference. So why not simply use the 881 coil on the Tacoma shock? Is there a difference in spring height in such a way that I would have to preload the springs to the same extent to sit where I am sitting now? Or is the shock actually longer like one would get with the Tundra shock?

Im not at all opposed to going the Tundra spring/shock route, but if I can just replace the shocks and keep the 881 springs, that saves about $250.

 

[Brilliant]

dont make it overly complicated. Everyone runs tundra fronts. If tacomas were better, everyone would run those. eh? Coils, tundras are progressive I hear... find a junk yard set if you dont want to pay retail.

I run the tundras, rides great, although a bit soft.

 

[snivilous]

First of all, the misconception that you can preload the springs is completely false. What happens is you simply extend the shock further when you move the setting up, and this results in the shock moving outside of it's "optimum" valving, which I still question but there's not really anyway to test that and people do claim a harsher ride.

I have also heard that the Taco and Tundra shocks are the same, just the Tundra has two additional adjustment settings. Additionally, you apparently can't run OME springs on coilovers with bilstein shocks which I don't know why not but that's the common idea.

If you have good shocks with your coilovers and the ride is harsh, then you need springs with a lower spring rate so that they compress more and appear more squishy when you hit a bump.

 

[opie74]

dont make it overly complicated. Everyone runs tundra fronts. If tacomas were better, everyone would run those. eh? Coils, tundras are progressive I hear... find a junk yard set if you dont want to pay retail.

I run the tundras, rides great, although a bit soft.

"better" is also subjective. For example, you say your tundra coils are soft, while others say they are firmer than stock.

First of all, the misconception that you can preload the springs is completely false. What happens is you simply extend the shock further when you move the setting up, and this results in the shock moving outside of it's "optimum" valving, which I still question but there's not really anyway to test that and people do claim a harsher ride.

I gotta disagree. You can only extend a shock as far as the cylinder will allow. Lets say a shock at full extension is 12" and that is the distance the spring has to fit between the upper mount and the lower mount. If you decrease that distance by moving the lower mount up 2", you have to "pre-load" the spring to fit into the new space. Sure you intention is not to pre-load the spring, but that is whats happening by fitting a 12" spring into an 8" space.

I have also heard that the Taco and Tundra shocks are the same, just the Tundra has two additional adjustment settings. Additionally, you apparently can't run OME springs on coilovers with bilstein shocks which I don't know why not but that's the common idea.

I am aware of the additional setting on the tundra shocks, but I had not heard they were valved the same.

There are folks running OME coils on Bilstein shocks, although I have also heard you cant.

If you have good shocks with your coilovers and the ride is harsh, then you need springs with a lower spring rate so that they compress more and appear more squishy when you hit a bump.

Then I will loose the lift I have now, and I would like to keep it.

 

[snivilous]

I gotta disagree. You can only extend a shock as far as the cylinder will allow. Lets say a shock at full extension is 12" and that is the distance the spring has to fit between the upper mount and the lower mount. If you decrease that distance by moving the lower mount up 2", you have to "pre-load" the spring to fit into the new space. Sure you intention is not to pre-load the spring, but that is whats happening by fitting a 12" spring into an 8" space.

Yes, that is definitely true. But that means you are riding with the shock fully bottomed out. Ideally the shock is sitting around half extended when the truck is sitting still.

Now, if you are talking about when the coilover is sitting on the bench, you are still right, but once you put it into the truck the coil will compress the same amount regardless of if it was preloaded before (unless again, the shock is so short that it's bottomed out already when the truck's weight is on it).

 

[opie74]

Yes, that is definitely true. But that means you are riding with the shock fully bottomed out. Ideally the shock is sitting around half extended when the truck is sitting still.

I used 12" to keep it simplistic. That would mean that "bottomed out" would be about 6".

This, of course, assumes that one wouldn't need to compress the spring at all in order to assemble a full strut. Every strut that is assembled pre-loads the spring to some extent.

Now, if you are talking about when the coilover is sitting on the bench, you are still right, but once you put it into the truck the coil will compress the same amount regardless of if it was preloaded before (unless again, the shock is so short that it's bottomed out already when the truck's weight is on it).

I know where you are coming from. You are saying that if a stock spring with vehicle weight on it puts the shock at the mid point of its stroke, then "pre-loading" the spring will merely change its resting height. You are half right. You will also stiffen the ride because you have essentially added more load to the spring without actually adding weight to it. As you compress a spring, it takes an increasing amount of weight to continue to compress it. I am not exactly sure how loads are figured on a spring... But if a 600 in/lb spring will move 1 inch for every 600 pounds placed on it, then its safe to assume that if you pre-compress that spring 2" but only put 600 pounds on it, its going to be a little stiff.

Based on how much the 881 had to be compressed to fit on the 90004 shock, Id says its carrying a fair amount of pre-load in order to achieve the lift. Rather than relying entirely on just a longer shock like the Tundra strut would accomplish. I would rather have the increased length of the Tundra strut to achieve a modest lift rather than go with the Tacoma strut and have to pre-load the springs to achieve lift. But I do not know the difference in length between the Tacoma 5100 and the Tundra 5100.

 

[snivilous]

I used 12" to keep it simplistic. That would mean that "bottomed out" would be about 6".

This, of course, assumes that one wouldn't need to compress the spring at all in order to assemble a full strut. Every strut that is assembled pre-loads the spring to some extent.



I know where you are coming from. You are saying that if a stock spring with vehicle weight on it puts the shock at the mid point of its stroke, then "pre-loading" the spring will merely change its resting height. You are half right. You will also stiffen the ride because you have essentially added more load to the spring without actually adding weight to it. As you compress a spring, it takes an increasing amount of weight to continue to compress it. I am not exactly sure how loads are figured on a spring... But if a 600 in/lb spring will move 1 inch for every 600 pounds placed on it, then its safe to assume that if you pre-compress that spring 2" but only put 600 pounds on it, its going to be a little stiff.

Based on how much the 881 had to be compressed to fit on the 90004 shock, Id says its carrying a fair amount of pre-load in order to achieve the lift. Rather than relying entirely on just a longer shock like the Tundra strut would accomplish. I would rather have the increased length of the Tundra strut to achieve a modest lift rather than go with the Tacoma strut and have to pre-load the springs to achieve lift. But I do not know the difference in length between the Tacoma 5100 and the Tundra 5100.

Okay, say you have a 100in/lb spring. So 100 pounds compresses it one inch. Now say you assemble the coilover and that requires compressing the spring 2 inches, so 200lbs of force is applied for the coilover to be assembled. Once the coilover is installed, if say only 150lbs of weight is applied from the truck it won't compress the spring any further. To compress the spring past its 2inch (200lb) preload, you need more than 200lbs. The preload is only applied because the shock is fully extended, so the shock spindle is pulling down on the spring since it can't extend out any further. Once that spring compresses at all (past 200lb that was the preload) then the spindle isn't in tension anymore so it isn't putting any force on the spring, thus not preloading it at all.

Hopefully that explanation made sense...

Sorry if this is totally off topic of your post...

 

[opie74]

Okay, say you have a 100in/lb spring. So 100 pounds compresses it one inch. Now say you assemble the coilover and that requires compressing the spring 2 inches, so 200lbs of force is applied for the coilover to be assembled. Once the coilover is installed, if say only 150lbs of weight is applied from the truck it won't compress the spring any further. To compress the spring past its 2inch (200lb) preload, you need more than 200lbs. The preload is only applied because the shock is fully extended, so the shock spindle is pulling down on the spring since it can't extend out any further. Once that spring compresses at all (past 200lb that was the preload) then the spindle isn't in tension anymore so it isn't putting any force on the spring, thus not preloading it at all.

Hopefully that explanation made sense...

Sorry if this is totally off topic of your post...

Getting a bit off topic. I dont mind.

Are you saying that once the load on the spring overcomes the pre-load, the spring isnt pre-loaded anymore? I guess technically you are correct.

But lets take our simplistic approach and put some real world numbers on it. The 881 spring has a 502 in/lb spring rate. If I have the compress that spring 2" to assemble the strut (which I think is actually realistic) then I would have to have a minimum of 1000 pounds just to overcome the pre-load. So you see, you can pre-load a spring. You can also create a very harsh ride by doing so.

What I would like to accomplish is to keep the same lift height without pre-loading the spring. Which I believe is half of how the 881/90004 set up gets there. I know this can be done with the tundra setup. Just havent found any information on the tacoma/881 set up. I do believe that I have discovered that the tacoma and tundra 5100 are roughly the same extended length. What i dont know is how that corresponds to spring length.

 

[Brilliant]

"better" is also subjective. For example, you say your tundra coils are soft, while others say they are firmer than stock.

The front end imo is soft with tundras; however, its a nice compliant road ride for small bumps. My other car is an from a m3 with AST dampers, anything is pretty soft to me.

My point is bisltien tacos are not preferred in any way, softer and less adjustment. Why would you want such a thing? There isn't anything more to learn here, the tundra is the preferred shock of the 2 (vast majority report).

OE tundra coils, progressive are just that, soft then hard. If you want a nice dual duty on road some off road, seems like this is may be what you want. Soft on small bumps, harder on big holes.

I think everything tundra coils/5100s has been beaten to death. Find someone locally to drive their set up. That's probably the best thing you can do. Its what I did and resolved my questions.

If you're worried about spending money on coils, again go to a junk yard and find a set for a few bucks. In all likelihood, whatever you find you can resell on the forum for whatever you paid.

 

[opie74]

The front end imo is soft with tundras; however, its a nice compliant road ride for small bumps. My other car is an from a m3 with AST dampers, anything is pretty soft to me.

Some say its firm. Do you have any first hand experience with the Tacoma 5100? Can you compare the 2?

My point is bisltien tacos are not preferred in any way, softer and less adjustment. Why would you want such a thing? There isn't anything more to learn here, the tundra is the preferred shock of the 2 (vast majority report).

I am aware the Tundra set-up is the preferred method. However, most folks replacing their front suspension dont already have aftermarket springs.

Do you know the Tacoma 5100's are softer? You think the Tundra 5100's are soft while others think they are firm. I'm not particularly interested in the ride difference between the two, I want to know if the OME 881 spring will the same ride height I have now without pre-loading the spring to achieve the lift.

OE tundra coils, progressive are just that, soft then hard. If you want a nice dual duty on road some off road, seems like this is may be what you want. Soft on small bumps, harder on big holes.

I am aware of how a progressive spring works. That wasn't one of my questions.

I think everything tundra coils/5100s has been beaten to death. Find someone locally to drive their set up. That's probably the best thing you can do. Its what I did and resolved my questions.

Please re-read the specific questions I am asking. I am not trying to start another thread on the ride quality of the Tundra/5100 set-up.

If you're worried about spending money on coils, again go to a junk yard and find a set for a few bucks. In all likelihood, whatever you find you can resell on the forum for whatever you paid.

I am hoping to find someone that has had both the Tacoma 5100 and the Tundra 5100 to get an accurate comparison. Locally isn't an option since most folks around here run 2nd gen Toyotas and Jeeps.

I am not "worried" about spending the money on the Tundra coils... New coils would be nice. But if I don't have to, why would I? If you have an extra $260 or so laying around, feel free to send it my way. I can put it to good use.

I suppose I shouldn't have beaten around the bush as much as I did. So I will reiterate my main questions....

Is there a difference in spring height in such a way that I would have to preload the springs to the same extent to sit where I am sitting now? Or is the shock actually longer like one would get with the Tundra shock?

 

[Brilliant]

Please re-read the specific questions I am asking. I am not trying to start another thread on the ride quality of the Tundra/5100 set-up.

I am hoping to find someone that has had both the Tacoma 5100 and the Tundra 5100 to get an accurate comparison. Locally isn't an option since most folks around here run 2nd gen Toyotas and Jeeps.

I suppose I shouldn't have beaten around the bush as much as I did. So I will reiterate my main questions....

Is there a difference in spring height in such a way that I would have to preload the springs to the same extent to sit where I am sitting now? Or is the shock actually longer like one would get with the Tundra shock?

You're hoping to find someone who switched from Tacos to Tundras with 881s? I guess I would infer something from that.

Google returns
881 w/5100 (Tacos), slight lift
suspension combo OME/Bilstein on 97 4Runner - YotaTech Forums

delta, taco/tundra
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/114397-tundra-tacoma-bilstein-5100s.html#post1163039

toyota data
READ FIRST - Lift options FAQ - TTORA Forum

 

[Brilliant]

another link (note the taco 5100 ome a few posts down)

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...-comparison-tacoma-5100s-vs-tundra-5100s.html

... and of course the data and final conclusions.

Seems like its been done before...

Good luck with whatever you end up doing. The dampers are nice, and I'd recommend them to anyone wanting a mild lift and to replace the OE suspension.

 

[opie74]

Thanks for the links. Ive been using the Google as well and got some of my questions answered.

I ended up pulling the front sway bar today trying to locate a popping I am getting somewhere. HUGE difference in ride. I pulled the rear sway bar when I installed the lift and now the front matches the rear in firmness. SO thats a step in the right direction. Pulling that may have saved me the cost of buying the struts at all.