Just got my new 13 4runner Limited--who has replaced speakers?

[gago1101]

I listen to classic, modern rock, classic Jazz and classical when I'm not listening to ESPN radio. So big, deep hip hop bass is not something I'm interested in. Do they make a small sub that can be tucked away to just "fill" the low end vs making it ultra boomy? I am an audiophile with my home system. I really like a solid, natural low end.

My exact point. There is nothing boomy about the 7x10 Focals, in fact, these are the opposite of boomy. They give off very natural tight bass. Of course you need to mate that with a high damping factor amp, such as a class D amp. Booming occurs mainly due to poor damping.

In terms of the curve above, the reason you have elevation in the low end is due to the so call "room gain."

BTY, I have been and audiophile myself for the last 10 year and do not like muddy bass at all. You really do not need a sub for good music, you need good full-range speakers and a good amp.

 

[gago1101]

Looking more at the graph it looks like you aren't getting any meaningful output until 50hz or so. Focal claims 55hz in the documentation I've seen I think. Not that far off really.

I just don't know how you are even playing to 50hz at decent volumes??

When I get anywhere near 70 they want to tear my doors apart. How did you treat your doors to avoid that? I really would like to play them lower.

Interesting when you say no meaningful output below 50hz when the 0 db point is at 25 Hz and 30 Hz is at about 8-10db higher.

Focal spec of 55hz is conservative and refers to the anechoic chamber. Please look at the spec sheet with the freq. curve. It looks like these speakers go down to 30hz range without a problem. Frankly, I was surprised they went that low, but the reading is objective. I ave used the same equipment I use to calibrate my music and HT rooms.

There is much argument btn audiophiles if you need a sub for music. Most agree that you do not. HT is a different story. I personally have 2 15" subs in my HT room, after all you want to feel the rumble during explosions, etc. My music rooms has beautiful full-range speakers that play down to 25hz level with no problem.

Edit: here is the spec sheet
http://www.focal.com/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=3973

 

[jrhaze]

BTY, I have been and audiophile myself for the last 10 year and do not like muddy bass at all. You really do not need a sub for good music, you need good full-range speakers and a good amp.

I think this is true in the house, where speaker enclosures allow for MUCH more flexibility than bolting a couple of speakers into a rattly leaky car door.

Apples and oranges really.

 

[jrhaze]

Interesting when you say no meaningful output below 50hz when the 0 db point is at 25 Hz and 30 Hz is at about 8-10db higher.

Focal spec of 55hz is conservative and refers to the anechoic chamber. Please look at the spec sheet with the freq. curve. It looks like these speakers go down to 30hz range without a problem. Frankly, I was surprised they went that low, but the reading is objective. I ave used the same equipment I use to calibrate my music and HT rooms.

There is much argument btn audiophiles if you need a sub for music. Most agree that you do not. HT is a different story. I personally have 2 15" subs in my HT room, after all you want to feel the rumble during explosions, etc. My music rooms has beautiful full-range speakers that play down to 25hz level with no problem.

You haven't commented on you have your doors set up to cope with 30hz (??) at any volume much above a whisper.

Like I said, I have been trying for a while to get down to even 60 or 70 and they just want to tear my doors apart...

 

[gago1101]

You haven't commented on you have your doors set up to cope with 30hz (??) at any volume much above a whisper.

Like I said, I have been trying for a while to get down to even 60 or 70 and they just want to tear my doors apart...

I have used spacers and directly bolted the speakers to the metal/doors. I used lots of heavy foam insulation around it. Easily plays >95 db levels with no vibration at all. I get more vibration from my 6.5" JLs in the back when I get to 100db levels.

I live in Sonoma county. If you are near by, you r welcome to come and check it out

 

[dclark2171]

Could one mount a smaller sub on the inside tailgate?

 

[Rubberdown]

Could one mount a smaller sub on the inside tailgate?

Search woof woof... Someone put two 8s in there.

 

[Rubberdown]

Jrhaze. Is that an ultimo or ultimo sc? I'm curious how you feel about it as far as it playing loud. I have an idMax I have been going back and forth with, because it don't want to cut the panel. I know I'd be happy with the idMax as far as output, but ya know... I like your solution.

 

[jrhaze]

Jrhaze. Is that an ultimo or ultimo sc? I'm curious how you feel about it as far as it playing loud. I have an idMax I have been going back and forth with, because it don't want to cut the panel. I know I'd be happy with the idMax as far as output, but ya know... I like your solution.

It' the full-fledged ultimo.

It plays louder than I need it to I can tell you that. The other vehicle just has a 10" JL StealthBox so there's no comparison. The Utimo is powered by a JL 1200/1 - plenty of power.

More than playing loud though I'm impressed with how smooth it is and how easy it is to integrate into the system. It's just so seamless.

I wish I had tried some different ones though so I would have a better basis for comparison...

 

[jrhaze]

I have used spacers and directly bolted the speakers to the metal/doors. I used lots of heavy foam insulation around it. Easily plays >95 db levels with no vibration at all. I get more vibration from my 6.5" JLs in the back when I get to 100db levels.

I live in Sonoma county. If you are near by, you r welcome to come and check it out

I think I'll take another crack at my doors then, I do think I can do better...

 

[dclark2171]

So if you were me with the 13 limited and standard speakers, where would you install a sub if I do not want to block storage area or inhibit any normal use (fold down rear seats, etc). Under seat?

Basically, I want to replace the 8 standard speakers with better ones, add a small sub and an external amp without all being noticed much

 

[H&KRunner]

I know what you mean with a makeshift sub enclosure. I wanted to do the eact same thing.

I deadened my doors (way more than I needed to) and installed 8" mid bass drivers in the front doors. It had plenty of impact but if you're really looking for good sound quality I don't think you'll be happy, I know I wasn't.

I couldn't get the speakers to play below 80hz. Not a limitation of the speaker, just that I couldn't for the life of me get the doors to the point where they could take anything lower at high volumes.

I decided to just accept the 80hz limit and had a little custom sub enclosure built out of fiberglass. It is pretty unobtrusive really and doesn't get in the way. It makes such a huge difference and I would recommend to anyone looking for good sound to just bite the bullet.

morel ultimo? :rockon::rockon: kick ass job on the box...wish i had went this route. how many cubic feet do the ultimo require? i have yet to hear one in person but hear nothing but praise and good reviews.

ETA i have my doors deadening pretty good with a mix of CLD and CCF. i used a single layer of 50mil CLD on the outer door skin, 80mil CLD + 1/4" CCF on the inner door skin, and 100mil CLD + 1/4" CCF on the door panel. my front door speakers (Hertz Hi-energy 6.5) are HPF at 50hz. i often turn my sub-woofer off to enjoy the music. Nils Lofgren - keith dont go sounds incredible in my trunk w or w/o the sub.

 

[gago1101]

I think I'll take another crack at my doors then, I do think I can do better...

Make sure to bolt the speakers directly to the door frame if you can. My spacers are only bolt spacers and do not go all around the speaker frame. I had to have the spacers to be able to fit the massive magnets of the Focals. It would be best if you can do without any spacers. Padding and a high-damping factor amplifier are also important to minimize resonance and vibrations.

 

[jrhaze]

Make sure to bolt the speakers directly to the door frame if you can. My spacers are only bolt spacers and do not go all around the speaker frame. I had to have the spacers to be able to fit the massive magnets of the Focals. It would be best if you can do without any spacers. Padding and a high-damping factor amplifier are also important to minimize resonance and vibrations.

If I'm picturing correctly you have a gap between the speaker and the door? i.e. you've just used bolt spacers and have left the remaining area open? That is not going to give you very good performance - you want to isolate the back wave as much as possible. That might also explain why you are able to keep your doors from rattling etc, you aren't building any pressure in them at all.

I must be misunderstanding though...

I need spacers I'm running 8" speakers from HAT and they just barely clear on both sides. I am using quality hardwood spacers though that are treated with dynamat material as well.

I am using high quality amplifiers, nothing to be gained in that department.

If you're interested in taking a look at an alternative view on the importance of damping factor in an amplifier have a read:
Damping Factor a Misunderstood Rating

 

[jrhaze]

morel ultimo? :rockon::rockon: kick ass job on the box...wish i had went this route. how many cubic feet do the ultimo require? i have yet to hear one in person but hear nothing but praise and good reviews.

ETA i have my doors deadening pretty good with a mix of CLD and CCF. i used a single layer of 50mil CLD on the outer door skin, 80mil CLD + 1/4" CCF on the inner door skin, and 100mil CLD + 1/4" CCF on the door panel. my front door speakers (Hertz Hi-energy 6.5) are HPF at 50hz. i often turn my sub-woofer off to enjoy the music. Nils Lofgren - keith dont go sounds incredible in my trunk w or w/o the sub.

If I remember correctly Morel says it should be just over 1 cubic foot in a sealed enclosure. Which is roughly what I have there...I think I'm just barely shy of one cubic foot actually and their optimum is just over...I could be remembering incorrectly...

I have a lot of CLD in the door (both outer skin and inner) but not much at all on the door panel itself. I have used a small amount of CCF behind the speaker and I have a ton of ensolite I am going to try to add to the mix as well to see if that helps.

I think I have some MLV around from when I tried to cut the sound down in my landcruiser too..I will probably have a look next weekend...based on what you've done I probably need to focus on the door panel itself now.

If I could play my door speakers down to 50hz I'd be thrilled! I bet it sounds amazing. I have Hertz MLKs in my other car and love them too...like I said I'm sure your 4runner sounds great!

 

[jrhaze]

So if you were me with the 13 limited and standard speakers, where would you install a sub if I do not want to block storage area or inhibit any normal use (fold down rear seats, etc). Under seat?

Basically, I want to replace the 8 standard speakers with better ones, add a small sub and an external amp without all being noticed much

I would install a sub exactly where I did in the picture I posted. It doesn't block storage or inhibit any normal use of anything.

But maybe you're just looking for something like this install by Antman?
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/92013-antmans-thread-24.html#post989173

For front door speakers I would install a pair of quality 6.5" or even 8" round speakers. Check out Dynaudio, Morel, HAT, Hertz for some good options. There are a million other great options - including good cheaper options but you haven't posted a budget.

For the upper dash I would install a 3" wideband speaker. Some people might say it's crazy especially considering their off axis but it sounds incredible to me. I know one user managed to get a morel hybrid ovation 4" point source speaker to fit but that would take some effort.

Rear doors use whatever you want if you want rear fill.

I'd leave the hatch speakers disconnected.

I would add a sound processor and continue to use the factory HU but of course that's personal preference and makes things more complicated. There are a load of good DSPs out there from Alpine to Audison and a lot in between.

For reference here is the link of the speakers I used in the dash and doors. L3SE in the dash and L8SE in the front doors.
HAT Speakers

If you wanted to try something like the 4" morel point source speakers in the dash and build a quasi 3-way system here are the speakers you would be looking at:
Morel Integra 402

The doors will take up to an 8" round speaker depending on the depth but you will need adapters/spacers regardless. If you don't want to make your own you can contact user Mr Marv on tacoma world, he makes quality spacers/adapters for reasonable prices.

Like I said there are probably 100 options that could be argued to be as good as the next so it will depend on budget, personal preference, etc etc.

I replaced all the speakers in the truck except the rear hatch a couple of months ago, it was a fairly painless process.

 

[H&KRunner]

too much sauce

 

[jrhaze]

i am more a sound quality guy but love me some good clean bass as well.

ensolite is what i used on the inner door skin and the door panel. it work wonders on reducing rattles/vibrations. i would like to add some MLV as well but i have a few other projects im working on. too many hobbies not enough funds lol.
my next step is to do the cargo area and headliner....my sub is firing up and the port towards the hatch. i also want to upgrade to the Mosconi one series amps....a 120.4 for the tweeter and midrange, and a 200.2 for the midbass.

have you posted pics of your set up on here? love checking out kickass audio build threads and it def sounds like you know your stuff.

I keep meaning to post up a thread talking about the process...I should try to get around to that one of these days.

I have heard great things about the mosconi ams but haven't used them. what would you be upgrading from?

 

[dclark2171]

I would install a sub exactly where I did in the picture I posted. It doesn't block storage or inhibit any normal use of anything.

But maybe you're just looking for something like this install by Antman?
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/92013-antmans-thread-24.html#post989173

For front door speakers I would install a pair of quality 6.5" or even 8" round speakers. Check out Dynaudio, Morel, HAT, Hertz for some good options. There are a million other great options - including good cheaper options but you haven't posted a budget.

For the upper dash I would install a 3" wideband speaker. Some people might say it's crazy especially considering their off axis but it sounds incredible to me. I know one user managed to get a morel hybrid ovation 4" point source speaker to fit but that would take some effort.

Rear doors use whatever you want if you want rear fill.

I'd leave the hatch speakers disconnected.

I would add a sound processor and continue to use the factory HU but of course that's personal preference and makes things more complicated. There are a load of good DSPs out there from Alpine to Audison and a lot in between.

For reference here is the link of the speakers I used in the dash and doors. L3SE in the dash and L8SE in the front doors.
HAT Speakers

If you wanted to try something like the 4" morel point source speakers in the dash and build a quasi 3-way system here are the speakers you would be looking at:
Morel Integra 402

The doors will take up to an 8" round speaker depending on the depth but you will need adapters/spacers regardless. If you don't want to make your own you can contact user Mr Marv on tacoma world, he makes quality spacers/adapters for reasonable prices.

Like I said there are probably 100 options that could be argued to be as good as the next so it will depend on budget, personal preference, etc etc.

I replaced all the speakers in the truck except the rear hatch a couple of months ago, it was a fairly painless process.

Great info. After doing research, I believe the JBL system uses the same pioneer head unit as the standard but with different software. The JBLs are speakers, amp, sub.

 

[jangoforhire]

Here's my setup. 10" Sub molded into the factory location. It's out of the way but still provided good cabin fill.