KDSS Damage

marshal

New member
so in my wreck one of the KDSS soft lines in the front was ruptured and fluid leaked out. I know is saw somewhere before that the system can't be recharged and needs to be totally replaced but I can't find the post anywhere.

pretty much what I need is a near official documentation specifying that in the event of damage the entirety needs to be replaced so my insurance company will cough up the dough

anyone have any information that could help me out?
 
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It can be recharged, just need the high pressure pump and the very expensive fluid from Toyota, to do it. Even if everything were replaced, the system would need to be filled and bled.

Procedure is here
 
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Yarp. KDSS can be recharged, you're thinking of the XREAS. :)

Like geunine Lucas smoke, right?

Smokekit2.jpg
 
so in my wreck one of the KDSS soft lines in the front was ruptured and fluid leaked out. I know is saw somewhere before that the system can't be recharged and needs to be totally replaced but I can't find the post anywhere.

pretty much what I need is a near official documentation specifying that in the event of damage the entirety needs to be replaced so my insurance company will cough up the dough

anyone have any information that could help me out?


eek. Good luck!
 
KDSS bleed and recharge

It can be recharged, just need the high pressure pump and the very expensive fluid from Toyota, to do it. Even if everything were replaced, the system would need to be filled and bled.

Procedure is here

[MENTION=78273]Jeremy556[/MENTION]

Thanks for the link. Is it possible this may be required after performing a lift on a 4Runner with KDSS.
What do you think the high pressure oil pump (SST) costs? I've never used one. This repair may not be a piece of cake for some of us. After the cost of the SST pump it may be easier for some of us to have the dealer do this. Not sure?
 
[MENTION=78273]Jeremy556[/MENTION]

Thanks for the link. Is it possible this may be required after performing a lift on a 4Runner with KDSS.
What do you think the high pressure oil pump (SST) costs? I've never used one. This repair may not be a piece of cake for some of us. After the cost of the SST pump it may be easier for some of us to have the dealer do this. Not sure?
You wouldn't need to do this unless you compromise the integrity of the KDSS hydraulics.

I think MSRP on the pump is around $1,800, but there is one listed for sale for $450 here.

The problem you are going to run into is that very, very few dealerships own this SST, and they not going to be keen on purchasing it for 1 job.
 
You wouldn't need to do this unless you compromise the integrity of the KDSS hydraulics.

I think MSRP on the pump is around $1,800, but there is one listed for sale for $450 here.

The problem you are going to run into is that very, very few dealerships own this SST, and they not going to be keen on purchasing it for 1 job.

Interesting in the long-term reliability thread regarding KDSS this was my exact point ! and you said something like well I'll just go grab the SST , grab some fluid go home and do it no problem and I said good luck with that ! Now you're making my point that when things go wrong with this KDSS it's a big problem and expensive and very , very few dealers are equipped for it , again making my point . Just think about what repair will be like in 10 years. impossible.
 
Interesting in the long-term reliability thread regarding KDSS this was my exact point ! and you said something like well I'll just go grab the SST , grab some fluid go home and do it no problem and I said good luck with that ! Now you're making my point that when things go wrong with this KDSS it's a big problem and expensive and very , very few dealers are equipped for it , again making my point . Just think about what repair will be like in 10 years. impossible.
That is what I would do (or go long travel).

Why would the repair be any harder in 10 years than it is now? More dealers should have the tool as there are more KDSS out there with more miles on them.
 
That is what I would do (or go long travel).

Why would the repair be any harder in 10 years than it is now? More dealers should have the tool as there are more KDSS out there with more miles on them.

The issue is have they even taken it out of the box and hooked it up, let alone used it? I know ours hasn't even been put together, let alone used. Not many people have issues with KDSS and even fewer are going to pay out of pocket to fix it (remember XREAS and 4th gens? granted that's a sealed system, but the cost to replace it almost always negates anyone even considering to repair it.) So I doubt many dealers have or even know how to use the tool (god knows I haven't played with it yet, not that I wouldn't want to; just again no vehicles to try it on.)
 
KDSS has got to be able to be pressurized without the SST by using the KDSS pistons and a floor jack. I haven't thought it all the way through, but it must be possible to do. Basically bleed the system, put a pressure gauge on it, jack up the piston until the pressure is correct, close the shutter valve, and you should be in business. Unless the vehicle weight isn't enough to create enough pressure - I don't know the piston bore.
 
Bleeding the KDSS lines

KDSS has got to be able to be pressurized without the SST by using the KDSS pistons and a floor jack. I haven't thought it all the way through, but it must be possible to do. Basically bleed the system, put a pressure gauge on it, jack up the piston until the pressure is correct, close the shutter valve, and you should be in business. Unless the vehicle weight isn't enough to create enough pressure - I don't know the piston bore.

Have you read the info [MENTION=78273]Jeremy556[/MENTION] posted? What you're suggesting does not provide a way to add fluid or bleed the entire line from front to back.
You have to bleed the system from the center outward. It takes a pump with a large reservoir that can keep pumping fluid until it reaches the pistons at both ends. The tanks at the center have intake connectors for the SST and bleed valves for doing this. The pistons must have a bleed valve at each end. There's no way to input fluid at one end and keep pumping, afaict.
I'll admit I haven't read the entire instructions or gone to all of the detailed links with in-depth instructions for every step, but I scanned the whole link and got the jest of it.
 
Replacement of KDSS

The issue is have they even taken it out of the box and hooked it up, let alone used it? I know ours hasn't even been put together, let alone used. Not many people have issues with KDSS and even fewer are going to pay out of pocket to fix it (remember XREAS and 4th gens? granted that's a sealed system, but the cost to replace it almost always negates anyone even considering to repair it.) So I doubt many dealers have or even know how to use the tool (god knows I haven't played with it yet, not that I wouldn't want to; just again no vehicles to try it on.)

I'm new to T4R so I don't remember the XREAS and 4th gen. Doesn't the T4R Limited and the Land Cruiser still have XREAS?

But if you decide to replace the KDSS system it does not come in one big piece, fully charged and ready to work. It must be installed in pieces without the fluid and connected by the lines. Then it gets bled and charged. Correct?

And has anyone priced the parts that comprise the KDSS. I saw one of the pistons on a TRD part sales site and I believe it was $750.00. The other parts were similarly priced. Not cheap to replace.
 
I know one of the dealerships in CO knows how to do it, and does it frequently enough.

It's either in Denver or CO Springs, because a bunch of the 4x4 shops in the area were discussing what happens when the GX470 KDSS crap out.
 
Have you read the info [MENTION=78273]Jeremy556[/MENTION] posted? What you're suggesting does not provide a way to add fluid or bleed the entire line from front to back.
You have to bleed the system from the center outward. It takes a pump with a large reservoir that can keep pumping fluid until it reaches the pistons at both ends. The tanks at the center have intake connectors for the SST and bleed valves for doing this. The pistons must have a bleed valve at each end. There's no way to input fluid at one end and keep pumping, afaict.
I'll admit I haven't read the entire instructions or gone to all of the detailed links with in-depth instructions for every step, but I scanned the whole link and got the jest of it.

If you blindly follow the Toyota service manual - then I suppose there is no other option. In my experience SSTs are handy and expensive. If you're a pro - you should have them. For the rest of us, I've found most SST tasks are easy to either replicate or work around. Timing belts, rear wheel bearings, axle seals, etc can all be done pretty easily without a SST with a little ingenuity.

Unless Pascal's law has changed, the KDSS system - or any hydraulic system - can be pressurized from anywhere in the system. There's no reason you *need* to either combine the bleeding with the pressurizing or bleed from a specific spot. I think it likely is the best method to bleed from the central ports, but that does not in any way prevent pressurizing the system separately.

Pressurizing is basically pre-loading a nitrogen spring. So long as you bleed the system to the proper volume of fluid, it should be possible to pressurize it with the piston that's already on the vehicle. It may not be quite as easy, but it should be a possible option. I suspect some trial and error would be necessary to test and find out exactly how much fluid (ie, when bled, where the pistons sit with no pressure) before someone could do a writeup on how to reliably use this method.

The advantage is that all you should need would be a hose with the proper fittings and a reservoir for bleeding. I would build this out of something like 3 or 4" PVC pipe with an air fitting so I could put the fluid in, and pressurize it to low pressure to bleed the system just like I would brakes or any other hydraulic system. Once it is bled properly, I would then need another hose with a pressure valve that reads up to 450psi, and a very small port valve to release pressure. Then open the shutter valves and start jacking up under the piston. Once you reach 400psi, you start releasing fluid pressure very slowly to let the piston reach its appropriate position and maintaining 400psi line pressure. Close the shutter valves. And you should be pretty darn close.

One possibility is that the two pistons do not have enough volume of fluid in the stroke to reach the necessary pressure. I don't know the answer to this. I think we can calculate it, but I don't know the stroke or bore of the KDSS cylinders nor do I know the volume of the nitrogen chamber.

Alternatively any hydrostatic test pump with the correct fitting should do the trick as well for a lot less than the SST. I think for the 4runner KDSS you don't need the manifold and dual hose system, but I'm not entirely sure not having done it. I *think* the 4runner version only has ONE fill port, not two like the Land Cruiser version. In reality this is what I would actually do. It's $100 for the tool. Should be pretty easy to do. Much easier after thinking it through than using the existing cylinders. And by the time you buy a pressure sensor and hoses, etc. you're not far off from the $100 pump and a fitting.

KDSS%204-M.jpg



If I were Marshal and had insurance paying for it - I wouldn't even consider trying it myself. This is just to hopefully put to bed the idea that KDSS is some magic system that can only be filled with unicorn tears.
 
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Oh trust me, I'm not doing it myself. The body shop won't even do it - who knows if my Toyota dealer will
 
It can be recharged, just need the high pressure pump and the very expensive fluid from Toyota, to do it. Even if everything were replaced, the system would need to be filled and bled.

Procedure is here

Jeremy, do you have the link for 4Runner? Great info there on tech page for Land Cruiser.
 

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