KDSS Diminishing Returns in Handling w/ 3rd Party Sustension? Need Help

[Wandering1]

Guys,

First thread, and I appreciate all your assistance in advance. I have done tons of searches on "Is KDSS worth it?" etc. which I think is a pretty resounding yes, unless someone wants to correct me on that. However, I haven't found anything that directly answers this question.

From what I've gathered, unless you want to go LT, or are afraid of the detriments of lifting it, or it's long term reliability, or the massive cost to fix it, most think it's worth it.

I know lifting it doesn't cancel it out, and that it will be a benefit, but here is my question: is there a point of diminishing returns with KDSS and 3rd party suspensions?

At a certain level of upgrade suspension, does the KDSS play less of a factor in the on/off road handling, because the upgraded suspension is handling better?

I know the articulation will not be the same because of the sway bars, but I'm just talking about non-articulation based handling (body roll, etc.)

The reason I am trying it figure this out is that I'm aggressively trying to purchase a new 4Runner, but having a very difficult time finding the right truck. Any dealer with a trail thinks they're sitting on a gold mine, and prices themselves out. I've seen some really outrageous asking prices for trails in my area. FWIW, there are a lot of showboaters/mall crawlers around here that are likely to be driving the costs up)

The price of a 2013 Trail in moderate condition (scratches, dings, etc.) in my third choice color w/ KDSS is about 3.5k more than a 2014, (which is the body style I prefer), in immaculate condition, in my favorite color, and with fewer miles.

My thought process is that for the difference in price, I could add an ARB locker and a decent bit of the cost of a nice lift.

TLDR: If I buy an SR5 for less and install a locker + nice suspension lift, can I get close to the non-articulation ride handling, on and off road, of the KDSS trail?

If so, what kind of suspension are we talking about to match the handling?

 

[1engineer]

Pick what you want but KDSS works the same no matter which suspension you have. Your call.

 

[Apex Overland]

My thought process is that for the difference in price, I could add an ARB locker and a decent bit of the cost of a nice lift.

TLDR: If I buy an SR5 for less and install a locker + nice suspension lift, can I get close to the non-articulation ride handling, on and off road, of the KDSS trail?

If so, what kind of suspension are we talking about to match the handling?

Exactly why we bought a SR5.

my buddy's trail with bilsteins and my SR5 lifted with Toytec Boss kit ride roughly the same. when you take a corner fast is when you notice it. Both of us agree though, mine handles just fine; its not a sports car. Is it nice to have KDSS? Yes. Is it worth it? I think no. my buddy is on the fence if its worth it or not.

No aftermarket suspension is going to feel like KDSS. Period.

we both have roughly the same $$$$$$ in our rigs. I've got a better and higher lift. He's got a E-locker and cheaper lift. We both wheel together, take the same lines, have the same tires, etc. but I've got a few $$$ saved for a ARB locker and compressor.

its your call though, all depends on what you are going to use it for, and your future plans.
AND how much $$$$ you have/are willing to spend

 

[STX4Runner]

I have KDSS and like it a lot. Great on road handling (keeping in mind I'm driving a lifted brick), and works just fine with a moderate lift. But it's not worth $3,500. I would buy the newer, better, vehicle in the color you want and the body style you want.

 

[Wandering1]

Thanks guys, this really helps a lot. My intended use is for an overall "Adventure" rig. I'm probably not going to be wheeling it overly hard in the near future, and am much more interested in loading up and heading into the great unknown.

That being said, there will definitely be some off-road use. Getting to tops of mountains, sketchy fire-roads, SE gatherings, etc.

My wife and I love doing road trips where we load up, and just start driving, without any set plans, and head towards whatever roads/trails/mountains we see and want to explore.

That being said, there is a lot of highway driving involved in that type of exploration. Sometimes we may hit several different states in a week-long cruise.

That's why road handling is important. When I had my lifted jeep, she almost refused to drive it, which made long trips much more tiring on me (on top of those trips being in a Jeep)

Great to hear some feedback from people who have been using this tech for quite a bit. It's a perspective I couldn't get on a few short test-drives.

Seems like the KDSS is a nice bonus, but not something, in and of itself, worth sacrificing a lot over.

 

[High_Country]

My $0.02.

Ultimately decide what you want and wait to find it. Regardless of what that is, if you settle for something different you'll likely always regret it. There's lots of 4Runners out there. Don't be afraid to buy a couple hundred dollar plane ticket to go somewhere to get it. Use truecar or other industry info to negotiate a reasonable price.

I have KDSS - flew from OK to CO to get it and absolutely love it. I think it's about a $1750 option....IIRC, not $3500. I didn't necessarily buy my truck with the intention of selling it later on, but I now have a "2015 Trail Edition with KDSS" (and all the whiz bang electrical doo-dads - crawl control, ATRAC, multi-terrain select, and an e-locker that comes with it). I do NOT have a "base model SR5 that's been modded out by some unknown joe blow who put who knows what in it". (Joe Blow - Please don't take offense to that last statement, I'm simply writing it from the perspective of an 'average' buyer in the future).

To your original question - for most reasonable height lifts of good quality, you're not going to see 'diminishing returns' on your KDSS investment from a handling / performance standpoint.

 

[Wandering1]

High Country,

I definitely understand your point about the modding, but I'll be modding either way, so the only difference is between a modded trail and a modded SR5.

In this scenario, I'm primarily looking for used. Obviously the price cut is a factor, but also psychologically it'll be easier for me to deal with driving a 30k used 4Runner into the woods than a 40k new one.

Most have already gotten a few pinstripes, and the price is adjusted accordingly, so me adding a few more won't be as annoying as doing so on a brand new rig.

May just be my OCD, but whatever works, right?

The trick is that all things being the same, I would choose the 2014 grey every day, so the main question is whether or not the KDSS alone is worth the extra cash and other sacrifices vs. the SR5. I don't plan on reselling anytime soon. The reason I'm in this mess is I just drove my last rig into the ground, and I'm not sure how much longer she'll hold on.

 

[Hamburgerpimp]

I was in a similar boat as you, but knew I wanted a trail. Could not find one new at all, was going to be settling for a SR5. Finally Found a 14 trail at a dealer with only 8k on the ODO. Was a corporate demo with not a scratch on undercarriage and a Toyota certified to boot! Bought it, cost more than a new SR5, but not by much, now I'm looking to do a stage 2 icon on it and the more I read, the more the KDSS looks like it may be disadvantage when lifted.
I think the trail features are great, kdss works well on road and crawl, terrain select and locker are awesome, but kdss when lifted ?.. Still can't seem to get a good feel if it's good or bad.. So take into account all the things you will do in the future with your 4Runner and maybe a SR5 with a ARB could even be better,?... Thoughts....?.?

 

[sandcrawler]

I think the trail features are great, kdss works well on road and crawl, terrain select and locker are awesome, but kdss when lifted ?.. Still can't seem to get a good feel if it's good or bad.. So take into account all the things you will do in the future with your 4Runner and maybe a SR5 with a ARB could even be better,?... Thoughts....?.?

the benefits of KDSS continue to deliver even when lifted. it's a good thing.

you still get the amazing on-road handling/cornering plus the off-road functionality of the sways relaxing when traversing obstacles and the hydraulics deepening the suspension stroke to better "push" a wheel into contact with the ground.

this subject comes up all the time, and while i can appreciate the thought process of "maybe my $$$ aftermarket suspension will make the $$ factory KDSS option unnecessary?" the fact is that KDSS is absolutely a complement for most of the suspension upgrades for the 4Runner—the exception being a long travel system. if you think there's even a glimmer of a chance that an LT setup is in your future, then a 4Runner with KDSS isn't the right choice.

but otherwise, KDSS will work in concert with your aftermarket suspension. while your swaybars and shocks and coils are all part of your suspension they each perform a specific task; better shocks and coils aren't going to magically negate the improvements KDSS makes to the swaybar system. you can debate whether or not it's worth it to you, but the truth is that KDSS just offers something different.

you need to test-drive to make an informed decision for yourself, but just know that KDSS is a complement to most suspension upgrades for the 4Runner. be warned, however, that you may not be "complimenting" it when trying to reattach your swaybars while installing said aftermarket suspension.

 

[marshal]

i don't know where you can buy an ARB locker and part of a suspension for the equivalent amount installed. the installation on an ARB is almost as much as it costs, not to mention the other things you need to make it run, like the compressor and the harness.

 

[ECUDrummer]

The KDSS on mine makes it handle like a car - much more responsive. Doesn't feel like a truck or a "body on frame" design, even with an Icon lift and duratracs. It handles completely different (and much better) than my Silverado (which only had a front end leveling kit) before trade.

 

[Jetboy]

I think it really depends on where you want to go. If you want to go anywhere short of a long travel suspension, KDSS works great - and you can't replicate it for anywhere close to $1750. IMO it's a street benefit, not so much off road. At least for me the price difference was around $2-3000 for a trail vs an sr5. A trail base with KDSS is $36k. An sr5 base is $34k. Your market might vary?

If you want long travel soft off-road suspension with mild lift and tires under 35", go with an sr5. You'll be re-gearing anyway. Add the lockers to both ends while you're in there.

If you want to go any further - buy a 2wd. No point in buying a bunch of front drive parts you're going to throw away. Start with a 2wd SR5. Add a "lefty" transfer case with 4.7:1 low range. Do an SAS. Go crazy.

 

[Intruder]

i don't know where you can buy an ARB locker and part of a suspension for the equivalent amount installed. the installation on an ARB is almost as much as it costs, not to mention the other things you need to make it run, like the compressor and the harness.

Yeah, there's a reason most people install the air locker at the same time they re-gear. That way they can save a bit on the labour involved with having the diff apart once for both things because it ain't cheap by any means.

Having the factory e-locker also means it'll be under warranty if something goes wrong and any dealership should be able to repair it. With an air locker you're going to have to do the repair work yourself or find a shop that's experienced with them. I'm also guessing that adding an air locker would void any warranty on your diff.

When you consider how many shops seem to have difficulty with simple things like installing a lift (just look around the forum and there's lots of threads about this) finding one that can install or repair an air locker is going to be even tougher. This isn't to say that there's anything wrong or bad with an air locker, just that it's a different animal than a factory e-locker.

 

[CruzadoBlanco]

Another option over the arb air locker is the new G2 core locker thats coming this fall/winter. It operates off air like and arb however the shift mechanism like that of the elocker from toyota with a large shiftfork and collar. it takes out the odd ball issues the ARBs have with the internal seals or the reverting to unlocked if the line is compromised. if i hadnt just done the elocker retrofit it would be my choice. With that being said i would look for a 2014 or up if thats the body style you want, then just build it. my limited is 2x if not more capable than my dads 2012 trail (non-kdss) simply because ive spent my money saved from buying used and putting it in an amazing suspension set up with a toyota elocker. He is now planning to copy my setup. just my .02 from a silly 4th gen owner.

 

[Jetboy]

There's also an Eaton built "harrop" e-locker. I would not put an air locker in my vehicle personally. The older ARBs were affectionately known as ABR for "anything but reliable". A good clean install by a pro will get you about a 10 year trouble free life. Then one day you'll flip the switch and the compressor will just run and run. Gear lube will bubble out of your breather tube, and you'll know it's time to do a seal rebuild. Seals are relatively cheap - just a bit of a PITA to change. It also is somewhat dependent on your climate. Freeze and thaw cycles I suspect shorten the life of the compressor and lockers.

ARBs are great in function - they engage quickly and disengage quickly. They don't have some of the issues of Toyota e-lockers with overheating the solenoid by cycling it on and off a lot in competition type use. And they are strong - arguably stronger, although the 4 spider Toyota versions are stronger than the axles - so it's really a wash at that point.

Anyway - just my opinion. I like them for trailer queens and competition vehicles.

I think the eaton/harrop e-locker is better designed than either that Toyota or the ARB. I would like to order a pair of them at some point my land cruiser and give them a thrashing to see how they hold up.

 

[wfo9]

Most points have already been made.

But one factor that most people don't think about is parts cost....

There are no aftermarket parts for KDSS equipped vehicles. Most people will say of course not... but I'm not talking about the actual KDSS system. Simple things like Lower Control Arms are unique to KDSS, so you will never find an aftermarket version available (so expect to pay 2x more).

Not a huge deal, but if you plan to keep the vehicle for a long time and keep it going.... I would skip the KDSS. Not worth the complexity in that case.

I would have a hard time not buying a trail unless my plans were to re-gear and do LT...

 

[jwkilgore]

If I understand it correctly, the benefits of KDSS are:
- Better off-road ability because the swaybar is automatically disconnected or relaxed in wheel drop conditions allowing the lower wheel to drop farther down. All four wheels spend more time in contact with the ground and pulling.
- Because of the disconnect, the swaybar can be stiffer without compromising off-road handling. A stiffer sway bar results in better on-road handling.

Just out of curiosity, are there any aftermarket or OEM options to add a quick manual or automatic disconnect swaybar to the front of an SR5 or limited? I know of quick disconnects for the rear links, but nothing for the front.

 

[wfo9]

If I understand it correctly, the benefits of KDSS are:
- Better off-road ability because the swaybar is automatically disconnected or relaxed in wheel drop conditions allowing the lower wheel to drop farther down. All four wheels spend more time in contact with the ground and pulling.
- Because of the disconnect, the swaybar can be stiffer without compromising off-road handling. A stiffer sway bar results in better on-road handling.

Just out of curiosity, are there any aftermarket or OEM options to add a quick manual or automatic disconnect swaybar to the front of an SR5 or limited? I know of quick disconnects for the rear links, but nothing for the front.

Nothing readily available. Because of the swaybar design.. The swaybar will contact the CV boots if the the links are quick disconnected.

However, it is possible to fabricate a single sided full arm disconnect. I have a thread on it here somewhere. My first rev worked really well until I took it offroad with the arm still connected. That caused it to bend outward a little. I never planned to run it connected offroad, but I got in a rush to meet someone... I now have a second rev that I'm finishing up now that has additional gussets for lateral movement. I should be posting back to that thread in a few days with the revised version.

A similar design could be done for the rear, but I find it fine to run no swaybar in the rear or keep the swaybar connected and run extended links (which provide plenty of flex).

There are a many people who simply run without swaybars all the time. It's not ideal on the road, but you do get use to it....And if you have adjustable compression/rebound shocks you can make it handle pretty nice on the road with just the turn of a dial.

If you have never tired it, Pull off your swaybars for your next offroad adventure (or at least the front). It make a huge difference.

 

[jdtaylor42]

My opinion is it all depends on what you plan to do with the truck and how hard you plan to off-road it. The Trail was the right choice for me because I go hard off-road. But honestly I have had a Jeep Wrangler for three years that is heavily modified and I have only ever been in 4-Low like five times. If you choose your lines right it is rare that you would ever need a locker or use the climb assist that a Trail comes with.

I say seriously consider how crazy you plan to get off-road because an SR5 with the standard 2H/4H/4L will get 98% of people where they want to go off-road. Only serious trails will truly require the use of a locker.

As far as KDSS, it has been very nice on our rig but it sure was a bear to get re-attached when I installed my lift. Definitely test drive both and see if you can take a truck overnight so you can test it on actual trails before you make your decision.

 

[Wandering1]

Thanks!

Guys, thanks a ton for all your help. Found a killer deal on a 2014 Super White Trail Premium with KDSS, and snatched it up.

After all the debate, I think everyone is was spot on. I love the KDSS, and in the stock ride it really adds a lot, but for the right price I could have definitely lived without it.

Pics so the thread isn't worthless. It's not much, but I wanted to take it off road immediately and putz around a bit. :laser: