KDSS / Mod Hell - Rant!

[Vulgarian]

Thanks for all the feedback. From whatever angle you're feedback is coming from, it's all good and helpful.

 

[Sleeter]

You all may be right in regards to what is "normal" and I may need to lower my expectations - again. Naturally the 1/8" doesn't bother me - nor does 1/2". However, when I walk out to a level parking lot, approach my rig from the left rear and then walk around to inspect what has to be a flat tire on the right front to find it's only an exaggerated lean - that's disconcerting from a technical point of view and retarded looking from an aesthetic perspective.

I learned that if my truck is covered in mud I cant see any lean at all.
I recommend you put your energy and money into using your vehicle for what it's built to do. Get out on some scenic trails, pitch camp in the middle of nowhere, cook food over a fire, and drink a couple beers and after that I'm sure this lean issue will seem pretty minor.

 

[Vulgarian]

i learned that if my truck is covered in mud i cant see any lean at all.
i recommend you put your energy and money into using your vehicle for what it's built to do. Get out on some scenic trails, pitch camp in the middle of nowhere, cook food over a fire, and drink a couple beers and after that i'm sure this lean issue will seem pretty minor.

best advice yet!

 

[wfo9]

Thanks for all the feedback. From whatever angle you're feedback is coming from, it's all good and helpful.

I'll give you some quick feedback, although I'm sure you have gotten some good info.

Yea, KDSS can be a little frustrating to deal with.. but once you get it adjusted... it works pretty well.

Do the balancing procedure at least once. It will probably come back, but it may help a little. After that and some driving... adjust the passenger coil over to account for the lean. If that is not enough.... Add a small trim spacer to the rear passenger coil.

All the KDSS ones want to lean to passenger. Nobody really knows why as the trucks are clearly weighted to driver with the gas tank.

Front to rear rake, is just your preload and coils... Weight (like a winch and bumper) may require stiffer springs. Typically ICON come with 650s. 700s may be required, but 650s can usually handle a decent amount of extra weight. I know a few people with shockworks front bumpers + winch.. and they all run 700s on their Icons with great results.

 

[jrandom]

You all may be right in regards to what is "normal" and I may need to lower my expectations - again. Naturally the 1/8" doesn't bother me - nor does 1/2". However, when I walk out to a level parking lot, approach my rig from the left rear and then walk around to inspect what has to be a flat tire on the right front to find it's only an exaggerated lean - that's disconcerting from a technical point of view and retarded looking from an aesthetic perspective.

I agree to some extent.

Should also think about how much do you weigh (? 160-220lbs) and whether or not you have a full tank of gas (~150 lbs), both are on the drivers side, any cargo?, all of those will have some effect on lean. 300-500 more lbs of weight is well quite a bit.

Of course, if we are talking inches yeah I would have some concern for sure.

 

[Sleeter]

Why is it not on the PRO ? In Toyotas testing it was discovered that the increased travel (shock stroke) and increased wheel speed caused KDSS cylinders to get hot and the oil would foam and lose their effectiveness at high-speed's. This is the opposite of what you would want in a high-speed desert situation. The system just did not have the oil capacity for cooling.

Can you site any legitimate sources?

 

[wfo9]

If left stock the KDSS system works as intended , it gives you a big swaybar on the street but allows it to be looser Offroad. It's a good compromise mall crawl solution.

The problems when modifying.

Why is it not on the PRO ? In Toyotas testing it was discovered that the increased travel (shock stroke) and increased wheel speed caused KDSS cylinders to get hot and the oil would foam and lose their effectiveness at high-speed's. This is the opposite of what you would want in a high-speed desert situation. The system just did not have the oil capacity for cooling.

Lift kits : when you lift your truck no matter what shock or suspension you install the KDSS cylinder is the limiting factor. In Toyotas design the shock limits downward travel and has an internal bump stop built in. When you add long shocks you change that engineering and make the KDSS cylinder the limiting factor which does not have an internal stop, It is not designed to limit down travel. This is pretty simple to demonstrate on a lift. So you could do a long travel suspension but it's like having stock shocks. It's counterintuitive it just does not work.

Negatives : Cost , weight , it reduces your ground clearance, It's heavy and vulnerable off road , it's very difficult to service. Very few dealers and or off-road shops even know how to work on it. I question it's long-term reliability and I mean 10 years from now. At some point parts will be hard to get. It's an interesting engineering exercise. I would call it a gimmick.

I'm not so sure this is accurate. Would like to hear your sources as well. Although I believe they kept the KDSS option off the pro for an engineering reason (not a cost reason as some believe)... The cylinder don't really move at speeds over 12mph (from what I can tell). And this is the main complaint from most owners who do mid speed off-road stuff (It's a bit harsh on un-even bumps since the swaybar is so stiff). It works well at crawl speeds, where the circuits seem to open and allow for the swaybar to frame connection to float. It also does well on the road where it is nice to limit body roll.

And I agree it is not for everyone, especially someone who is buying used or plans to keep it for a long time. But it is almost ideal for some and is an interesting design. Personally, a manual switch activated swaybar cam release would be a better solution overal. More of what the Rubicons have. But I can also why they would not see that as something for a luxury vehicle like the LCs...

 

[Vulgarian]

If left stock the KDSS system works as intended , it gives you a big swaybar on the street but allows it to be looser Offroad. It's a good compromise mall crawl solution.

The problems when modifying.

Why is it not on the PRO ? In Toyotas testing it was discovered that the increased travel (shock stroke) and increased wheel speed caused KDSS cylinders to get hot and the oil would foam and lose their effectiveness at high-speed's. This is the opposite of what you would want in a high-speed desert situation. The system just did not have the oil capacity for cooling.

Lift kits : when you lift your truck no matter what shock or suspension you install the KDSS cylinder is the limiting factor. In Toyotas design the shock limits downward travel and has an internal bump stop built in. When you add long shocks you change that engineering and make the KDSS cylinder the limiting factor which does not have an internal stop, It is not designed to limit down travel. This is pretty simple to demonstrate on a lift. So you could do a long travel suspension but it's like having stock shocks. It's counterintuitive it just does not work.

Negatives : Cost , weight , it reduces your ground clearance, It's heavy and vulnerable off road , it's very difficult to service. Very few dealers and or off-road shops even know how to work on it. I question it's long-term reliability and I mean 10 years from now. At some point parts will be hard to get. It's an interesting engineering exercise. I would call it a gimmick.

Can you site any legitimate sources?

I'm not so sure this is accurate. Would like to hear your sources as well. Although I believe they kept the KDSS option off the pro for an engineering reason (not a cost reason as some believe)... The cylinder don't really move at speeds over 12mph (from what I can tell). And this is the main complaint from most owners who do mid speed off-road stuff (It's a bit harsh on un-even bumps since the swaybar is so stiff). It works well at crawl speeds, where the circuits seem to open and allow for the swaybar to frame connection to float. It also does well on the road where it is nice to limit body roll.

And I agree it is not for everyone, especially someone who is buying used or plans to keep it for a long time. But it is almost ideal for some and is an interesting design. Personally, a manual switch activated swaybar cam release would be a better solution overal. More of what the Rubicons have. But I can also why they would not see that as something for a luxury vehicle like the LCs...

The statements that 05 makes are just that - statements. They're unsupported by anything and the logic used is deeply flawed. By the authors logic, air conditioning is also "Cost , weight ... ...It's heavy and vulnerable off road" and therefore vehicles with it are rendered Mall crawlers.

In its highest form the authors drivel is at best argumentum ad ignorantiam or Ignorance Fallacy and at it's lowest form it's a troll. Either way, it doesn't add value to the conversation at hand.

 

[TEujunga]

By the authors logic, air conditioning is also "Cost , weight ... ...It's heavy and vulnerable off road" and therefore vehicles with it are rendered Mall crawlers.

In its highest form the authors drivel is at best argumentum ad ignorantiam or Ignorance Fallacy and at it's lowest form it's a troll. Either way, it doesn't add value to the conversation at hand.

Anything mechanical or electronic adds complexity and weight and is vulnerable to failure off-road.

Steering, brakes, engines, transmissions, wheels -- all gotta go.

My recommendation for an off-road vehicle for these Luddite types: an ass.

Seems appropriate somehow...

 

[e60ral]

that's called backpacking

 

[1engineer]

If left stock the KDSS system works as intended , it gives you a big swaybar on the street but allows it to be looser Offroad. It's a good compromise mall crawl solution.

The problems when modifying.

Why is it not on the PRO ? In Toyotas testing it was discovered that the increased travel (shock stroke) and increased wheel speed caused KDSS cylinders to get hot and the oil would foam and lose their effectiveness at high-speed's. This is the opposite of what you would want in a high-speed desert situation. The system just did not have the oil capacity for cooling.

Lift kits : when you lift your truck no matter what shock or suspension you install the KDSS cylinder is the limiting factor. In Toyotas design the shock limits downward travel and has an internal bump stop built in. When you add long shocks you change that engineering and make the KDSS cylinder the limiting factor which does not have an internal stop, It is not designed to limit down travel. This is pretty simple to demonstrate on a lift. So you could do a long travel suspension but it's like having stock shocks. It's counterintuitive it just does not work.

Negatives : Cost , weight , it reduces your ground clearance, It's heavy and vulnerable off road , it's very difficult to service. Very few dealers and or off-road shops even know how to work on it. I question it's long-term reliability and I mean 10 years from now. At some point parts will be hard to get. It's an interesting engineering exercise. I would call it a gimmick.

KDSS is solid at +12 mph. Next.

 

[cloudrunner]

No offense OP, but it you can't adjust your own coilovers to sort out a minor lean, then you might consider getting into a different hobby.

 

[Vulgarian]

No offense OP, but it you can't adjust your own coilovers to sort out a minor lean, then you might consider getting into a different hobby.

None taken. Coil over adjustment is as easy as it gets. My immediate situation leaves me without a floor jack or any appreciable tools. I do enjoy working on my truck though. Since adjustment effects the front end alignment to some degree I'll have it done with alignment.

 

[TheBelafonte]

As a recent buyer of a 2017 Trd Premium with KDSS I wish I hadn't come upon this thread. Because I would love to lift it a little bit, and have it for a long time. I hope the truth lies somewhere in between both extremes of this argument and I can gain a little height without coming into big problems.

Is it possible as time goes on and shops/mechanics gain more experience the familiarity with the system within increase?

I'm moving out to Denver in October and was excited to find out Toytec is based there. Hoping if someone could point me in the right direction along with this site it would be them. Any thoughts?

 

[TEujunga]

As a recent buyer of a 2017 Trd Premium with KDSS I wish I hadn't come upon this thread. Because I would love to lift it a little bit, and have it for a long time. I hope the truth lies somewhere in between both extremes of this argument and I can gain a little height without coming into big problems.

Is it possible as time goes on and shops/mechanics gain more experience the familiarity with the system within increase?

I'm moving out to Denver in October and was excited to find out Toytec is based there. Hoping if someone could point me in the right direction along with this site it would be them. Any thoughts?

Remember that on a site like this, you're going to hear from a much higher proportion of people who have experienced problems (as well as general naysayers and cranks) than in the overall ownership population. That goes for any aspect of the T4R, not just KDSS.

The KDSS system has been around for a long time, and I'm pretty certain that the vast majority of T4Rs equipped with it have not experienced any issues. On this forum, you're going to hear about it from the few who do.

Honestly, If I were to use this forum as a guide, I'd think that T4Rs are as fragile as Fiats considering all the reports of problems -- real and imaginary -- that I see here. However, the reputation for extremely high reliability that the T4R enjoys didn't come out of thin air. Take anything you read on an internet forum with a grain of salt.

FWIW, one of the reasons I chose the threaded Toytec Ultimate coilovers for my front lift was so I could more easily deal with any KDSS lean issues that might develop. None have, as yet.

 

[TheWraith]

None taken. Coil over adjustment is as easy as it gets. My immediate situation leaves me without a floor jack or any appreciable tools. I do enjoy working on my truck though. Since adjustment effects the front end alignment to some degree I'll have it done with alignment.

bro come down to my house or I'll come to you ... I'll help you out if you just need an adjustment... I have the tools and jack stands.

been really thinking about this KDSS system. Does the stabilizer controller recieve any electric signal from the ecu ???

ps. some nice reading ... I found on kdss issues

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/cruiser-lean-youve-been-doing-it-all-wrong-yes-you.848267/

 

[Vulgarian]

As a recent buyer of a 2017 Trd Premium with KDSS I wish I hadn't come upon this thread. Because I would love to lift it a little bit, and have it for a long time. I hope the truth lies somewhere in between both extremes of this argument and I can gain a little height without coming into big problems.

Is it possible as time goes on and shops/mechanics gain more experience the familiarity with the system within increase?

I'm moving out to Denver in October and was excited to find out Toytec is based there. Hoping if someone could point me in the right direction along with this site it would be them. Any thoughts?

As [MENTION=164114]TEujunga[/MENTION] points out, you shouldn't be alarmed or generating any angst about your purchase due to my whining (aka "Crank"). KDSS is and has been roaming the backcountry of the planet on thousands of modded Land Cruisers and 4Runners for a long time. The fact that it's still being sold on new vehicles is at least empirical evidence that it's long past being a gimmick. And all the evidence that I've seen is that it's not that difficult to work on. When I took my truck in to have Demello work on it, they knew exactly what they were doing.

As for the lame mall crawler statements, I can tell you that KDSS has never limited me in anyway. I've never been anywhere with my JKU owning buddies that have an equal amount of mods to their rigs and not been able to follow them up, down, over or around obstacles. And as someone else has already pointed out, it is the least vulnerable thing on the underside of my truck and you'll find that KDSS is awesome in corners. Is KDSS perfect? No, but nothing is. And that is a lesson I've had to relearn repeatedly my entire life.

Remember that on a site like this, you're going to hear from a much higher proportion of people who have experienced problems (as well as general naysayers and cranks) than in the overall ownership population. That goes for any aspect of the T4R, not just KDSS.

The KDSS system has been around for a long time, and I'm pretty certain that the vast majority of T4Rs equipped with it have not experienced any issues. On this forum, you're going to hear about it from the few who do.

Honestly, If I were to use this forum as a guide, I'd think that T4Rs are as fragile as Fiats considering all the reports of problems -- real and imaginary -- that I see here. However, the reputation for extremely high reliability that the T4R enjoys didn't come out of thin air. Take anything you read on an internet forum with a grain of salt.

FWIW, one of the reasons I chose the threaded Toytec Ultimate coilovers for my front lift was so I could more easily deal with any KDSS lean issues that might develop. None have, as yet.

Well said.

 

[Vulgarian]

bro come down to my house or I'll come to you ... I'll help you out if you just need an adjustment... I have the tools and jack stands.

been really thinking about this KDSS system. Does the stabilizer controller recieve any electric signal from the ecu ???

ps. some nice reading ... I found on kdss issues

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/cruiser-lean-youve-been-doing-it-all-wrong-yes-you.848267/

I read that and I'll likely try that today and thanks for the offer. I'll PM you if I have time to come by this week before my alignment on Friday. I have a crazy week set up at work. We definitely should meet up and wheel some time.

 

[b407driver]

As a recent buyer of a 2017 Trd Premium with KDSS I wish I hadn't come upon this thread. Because I would love to lift it a little bit, and have it for a long time. I hope the truth lies somewhere in between both extremes of this argument and I can gain a little height without coming into big problems.

Is it possible as time goes on and shops/mechanics gain more experience the familiarity with the system within increase?

I'm moving out to Denver in October and was excited to find out Toytec is based there. Hoping if someone could point me in the right direction along with this site it would be them. Any thoughts?

You can absolutely lift a KDSS-equipped vehicle without issues, and unless you have infinitely-adjustable coilivers, there's likely to be a little lean (and it changes with loading). The OP has so many variables (added equipment and suspension) going on with his rig that without a whole lot more historical info, it's hard to say what actually created his 'problem'.

The two shops I've worked with here in the Front Range are Slee (Golden) and RSG on West Colfax. As far as suspension goes, Slee concentrates more on replacing suspension due to large increases in weight (due to bumpers, winches), whereas RSG does both big-time suspension mods as well as more moderate spacer lifts. You can check my build thread for the direction I went, which sounds like what you are after. I ended up at an effective 2" in front with 1.5" springs in rear, and I'm thrilled with the results (RSG did the work); caster is about as far out as I'd like, but didn't need UCA's.

Bottom line is whatever approach you decide to go with, give yourself latitude during the install to correct any resulting lean. RSG has the capability to fabricate engineering plastic top spacers on site for custom lean correction, and they are familiar with KDSS. PM me if you have any questions.

 

[mountain mike]

As a recent buyer of a 2017 Trd Premium with KDSS I wish I hadn't come upon this thread. Because I would love to lift it a little bit, and have it for a long time. I hope the truth lies somewhere in between both extremes of this argument and I can gain a little height without coming into big problems.



Is it possible as time goes on and shops/mechanics gain more experience the familiarity with the system within increase?



I'm moving out to Denver in October and was excited to find out Toytec is based there. Hoping if someone could point me in the right direction along with this site it would be them. Any thoughts?

I have heard Slee is familiar with KDSS and is a very respected shop here in Colorado. If you are looking for someone to work on your KDSS runner that would be a good place to start. ToyTec while very nice and helpful does not do installs.


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