KDSS(TE) vs Non KDSS (SR5)

[KCcarguy]

Thai, [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] brings up a good point, what if you had a fatty eating a box of Krispy Kremes sitting in the driver's seat in this exact picture and you managed to compress the front drivers side suspension enough to touch the bump stop? Then disconnecting the sway bar would show no improvement, right? With something so dynamic as a suspension, you can pretty much measure it to show whatever you want it to show given enough persuasion, so I don't see what's the point arguing about driving on a ramp

This is why I love fatties! I mean, Mila Kunis is hot, but can she help you get traction???

 

[philsey]

this is why i love fatties!

 

[KCcarguy]

 

[Thai]

My last post i promise.

don't you agree these test can be easily biased one way or the other (intentionally or unintentionally)?

No. As long as the guy in that T120 thread is doing it consistently b/w pictures, then that comparison (sway on and off) is legit. I see no reason why that guy would try to trick or manipulate anything. It was an easy A vs. B comparison. Same vehicle. Same day. Same ramp. Same position. Same measure tape. You get my point.

Now correctly me if I am wrong but, unless we spend all day long driving up and down a ramp, don't we kind of need to consider all the "what ifs".

RAMP = a boulder or rockledge that you're climbing with one of your front tire. Or if you're cross-axled, RTI can give you a good idea of how good your vehicle is in that situation. RTI ramp reflects real world in situations where you would want flex. Does it tell you how deep you can go in a river? No. Does it tell you the quality of your shocks? No. Does it tell you if you can launch your 4runner over a cliff? No.

Think about this...given the T120 thread linked above (with pics), a 3" compression means that you can go up a rockledge 3 inches higher and still have your 4runner flatter and your rear axle in better contact with the ground. This is just focusing on the front axle. KDSS disco's both front AND rear sways. You don't want this? I do. Many off-roaders want this. In fact, i would bet ALL off-roaders want this. And then when you go back on the road, your 4runner is tight around corners with less bobbing over bumps. ALL BECAUSE OF KDSS.

We can talk about fatties, Somalians, big kid, small kid, cargo weight, etc.. But, are we comparing fat chicks or are we comparing vehicles? Are we comparing tires or are we comparing suspension technology?

Oh right, i am exhausted trying to explain this. I know that some of you understand but just don't want to admit it. Good luck with denial.

 

[eddiebx]

My last post i promise.



No. As long as the guy in that T120 thread is doing it consistently b/w pictures, then that comparison (sway on and off) is legit. I see no reason why that guy would try to trick or manipulate anything. It was an easy A vs. B comparison. Same vehicle. Same day. Same ramp. Same position. Same measure tape. You get my point.



RAMP = a boulder or rockledge that you're climbing with one of your front tire. Or if you're cross-axled, RTI can give you a good idea of how good your vehicle is in that situation. RTI ramp reflects real world in situations where you would want flex. Does it tell you how deep you can go in a river? No. Does it tell you the quality of your shocks? No. Does it tell you if you can launch your 4runner over a cliff? No.

Think about this...given the T120 thread linked above (with pics), a 3" compression means that you can go up a rockledge 3 inches higher and still have your 4runner flatter and your rear axle in better contact with the ground. This is just focusing on the front axle. KDSS disco's both front AND rear sways. You don't want this? I do. Many off-roaders want this. In fact, i would bet ALL off-roaders want this. And then when you go back on the road, your 4runner is tight around corners with less bobbing over bumps. ALL BECAUSE OF KDSS.

We can talk about fatties, Somalians, big kid, small kid, cargo weight, etc.. But, are we comparing fat chicks or are we comparing vehicles? Are we comparing tires or are we comparing suspension technology?

Oh right, i am exhausted trying to explain this. I know that some of you understand but just don't want to admit it. Good luck with denial.

Here you go buddy, I know this is what you were ultimately after :thumb:

 

[Tengu]

At least I got the b:girl: booby prize out of all this. And btw, I did the test your flex thing to get a benchmark of my ride as the machine is pretty much stock and it's going to get some money injected into it. Hopefully next year this 186 ish will be different.

 

[fjc32]

I found this, I know it is not 4r but very similar.

Land Cruiser 150 KDSS - YouTube

Test droved both on road yesterday, to me the TE drives better, firmer suspension, less floaty, less lean on corners.

Since this will be the last year with the black overfenders, will this make it easier to sell later? I plan on keeping this for 3-4 yrs, so resale is kind of important.

 

[Thai]

I found this, I know it is not 4r but very similar.

Land Cruiser 150 KDSS - YouTube

Friendly reminder to the biggest KDSS supporters:

[MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION]
[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]
[MENTION=85512]eddiebx[/MENTION]
[MENTION=66624]KCcarguy[/MENTION] [MENTION=51186]philsey[/MENTION] [MENTION=6163]phillyd2[/MENTION]

Thanks for the video! Yeah, you can see that KDSS provides STABILITY off-road over uneven
terrain in the REAL WORLD! The articulation is better in both front and rear axles, providing clear stability advantage in the real world over non-KDSS vehicles. RTI scores reflect real-world travel. A 3" increased compression (for example) may seem small on paper, but in real-world off-roading, it is very significant!!

Think about this...given the T120 thread linked above (with pics), a 3" compression means that you can go up a rockledge 3 inches higher and still have your 4runner flatter and your rear axle in better contact with the ground. This is just focusing on the front axle. KDSS disco's both front AND rear sways. You don't want this? I do. Many off-roaders want this. In fact, i would bet ALL off-roaders want this. And then when you go back on the road, your 4runner is tight around corners with less bobbing over bumps. ALL BECAUSE OF KDSS.

I know that some of you understand but just don't want to admit it. Good luck with denial.

So, this goes along with my earlier argument...KDSS provides more effective articulation OFF-ROAD, while providing exemplary on-road handling and stability. IN THE REAL WORLD. A DIFFERENCE THAT CAN BE FELT AND SEEN. I hope that this officially ends the ignorant argument that KDSS is off-road marketing hype! Geez. It was not rocket science to begin with....

Embedding above video:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/r4ydoUIL1D4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And on-road:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-sl5bCgoWWc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[philsey]

... while providing exemplary on-road handling and stability. IN THE REAL WORLD. A DIFFERENCE THAT CAN BE FELT AND SEEN.

Wholeheartedly agree.

I cannot comment on off-road prowess. I did extensively test drive a TE/KDSS 2 months ago, over a combination of conditions, some rough.

Compared to my stock SR5 handling, which I did not like, the difference is quite significant. The TE is simply much more firmly planted, and better controlled. The Bilsteins/level/caster/tires improved my SR a lot, but it is still noticeably less well-mannered than the TE/KDSS.

Were I to trade, it would be a TE, no-brainer.

 

[philsey]

Question: (I cannot remember this ever being stated)

Do the TE and SR5 have the same shocks and springs?

 

[Thai]

Question: (I cannot remember this ever being stated)

Do the TE and SR5 have the same shocks and springs?

[MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION]...since he is the parts guy.

 

[Thai]

Were I to trade, it would be a TE, no-brainer.

To be honest...and this is obviously my opinion...but the TE is really the only 4runner that is worth it for me. I am not big into modification. I buy 4runners because they are reliable and durable. TE represents a perfect compromise...good on-road & great off-road. Of course, i would get better tires. The combination of a rear locker + KDSS is just perfect...then you add in the solid on-road ride/handling...you have a perfect SUV that is practical, capable, and with decent tires make a damn good expedition vehicle (for the average Joe like me).

Now, if you're into heavily modding your vehicle, then i honestly would get a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon (or Unlimited Rubicon). I would not buy SR5 nor Limited. If i am going to compromise the reliability/durability that is built into a stock 4runner by going aftermarket (heavily), then i might as well go Jeep Wrangler route because it will be cheaper and with plenty more options aftermarket.

As always, my opinion...and i am sure that some folks will get their panties twisted...but oh well.

 

[adam2562]

After 10 months, I traded 2011 SR5 for a 2011 Trail with KDSS because I couldn't stand the boat like ride of the SR5. The trail is MUCH better on road and off. The bigger difference is on road.

I am not a habitual car trader. I owned my previous vehicles 8-10 years each.

Guy

i did the same thing.. i traded my limited 10 months later for at trail and im not a habitual car trader either..

 

[KCcarguy]

Friendly reminder to the biggest KDSS supporters:

[MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION]
[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]
[MENTION=85512]eddiebx[/MENTION]
[MENTION=66624]KCcarguy[/MENTION] [MENTION=51186]philsey[/MENTION] [MENTION=6163]phillyd2[/MENTION]

Thanks for the video! Yeah, you can see that KDSS provides STABILITY off-road over uneven
terrain in the REAL WORLD! The articulation is better in both front and rear axles, providing clear stability advantage in the real world over non-KDSS vehicles. RTI scores reflect real-world travel. A 3" increased compression (for example) may seem small on paper, but in real-world off-roading, it is very significant!!



So, this goes along with my earlier argument...KDSS provides more effective articulation OFF-ROAD, while providing exemplary on-road handling and stability. IN THE REAL WORLD. A DIFFERENCE THAT CAN BE FELT AND SEEN. I hope that this officially ends the ignorant argument that KDSS is off-road marketing hype! Geez. It was not rocket science to begin with....

Dammit Thai, you always have to be right. I like it a lot better over in off-topic where I usually agree with you. For the record, I still think the OP should get KDSS and if I were to do it over, no doubt I would get a TE w/ KDSS.

Now as far as your "it's not rocket science" comment, SCIENCE is exactly where many of us are coming from. Trying to separate science and fact from marketing hype can be a little confusing sometimes. All Toyota says is that "KDSS allows more articulation".....more than what? More than an equally thick sway-bar?, more than a thinner sway-bar? As Much having no sway-bar at all? The problem lies in the fact that comparing a KDSS and non-KDSS vehicle is not truly "scientific" because in order for the non-KDSS to be a true "control" it would have to have the exact same sway-bars connected in the exact same location, etc....you know, all other variables the same. And since non-KDSS 4runners don't have that set-up it makes things a little fuzzier. That was my cause for skepticism. Anyway, the video obviously show the benefits (assuming a Prado 120 vs 150 is close enough), and I'll give you this one...YOU ARE RIGHT!!! :cheers:

Edit: Actually....I'm thinking a proper "control" would be a 4r with no Sway-bar at all. Obviously, the thick bar with no KDSS would perform worse. Shit....I'm going to bed. :brick:

 

[Intruder]

Do the TE and SR5 have the same shocks and springs?

Yes sir they do. Only the Limited has a different part number for the XREAS shock.

Look, KDSS is great on road but it does not give you any extra travel in your suspension. I'm pretty sure [MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION] has already explained that travel is limited by the bumpstop and UCA and he's 100% correct (can't be bothered to read this whole thread since it's just a rehash of the other one). If you want more travel, go get a long travel kit that includes different upper and lower arms to accomodate it and requires removal of the sway bar.

KDSS might allow for slightly easier suspension flex, but it definitely doesn't perform any miracles. Of course the Toyota marketing videos that have been posted in this thread are going to make it seem that way, but I'll take a locker over KDSS any day of the week.

Oh, and KDSS also doesn't make you a better driver off road. Pretty sure like in all driving situations a good, experienced driver in an SR5 will overcome more obstacles than an inexperienced driver in a TE. It's about picking the appropriate line for your skill and vehicle. In this pic I don't think that's an insane amount of flex and it sure didn't keep both my rear tires on the ground. Had to use my locker to keep going, but I knew I would going in based on the line I chose. You can see lower tire tracks on the left where the guys without lockers had to go in way more off camber.


Untitled by BurningChr0me, on Flickr

 

[Thai]

Now as far as your "it's not rocket science" comment, SCIENCE is exactly where many of us are coming from.

The problem lies in the fact that comparing a KDSS and non-KDSS vehicle is not truly "scientific" because in order for the non-KDSS to be a true "control" it would have to have the exact same sway-bars connected in the exact same location, etc....you know, all other variables the same.

Here's the simple explanation. KDSS takes sways out of the equation off-road, right? Does it matter that KDSS has a baseball bat thick sway bar or a toothpick bar?? No. The thickness of the KDSS sways ONLY affects on-road ride/handling. Off-road, the sways (no matter how thick or thin it is) are effectively disconnected...see Edmunds's explanation in my post below.

SR5 and Limited will ALWAYS be influenced by the sway bars...because sways are always connected on these models.

As harper7 has shown, all 4runners have the same suspension geometry and same bumpstops. All have the same springs...and except for Limited XREAS shocks, SR5 and TE have same shocks. (And I assume XREAS shocks have same length as TE and SR5.)

(On the highway, at high speeds, if you were to hit a rock/curb, then yeah, all 4runners suspensions travel the same distance. But, off-road, this is NOT the case because you're going slow, up/down uneven terrain where the weight of the vehicle shifts constantly.)

So, one vehicle has sway bars connected all the time...the other has no sway bars (in off-roading). Which do you think will have more effective travel off-road over uneven terrain? One with sway or one without any? Which one is more flexy and thus give higher RTI?

Simple...easy peasy! The problem here is that some "non-believers" want to make this as complex as possible as part of the denial process. Some of these folks even come up with silly "what ifs" to make things fall their way. If one were to take a step back and look at the bigger picture, this KDSS system is very nice and does deliver what it promised.

 

[Thai]

Look, KDSS is great on road but it does not give you any extra travel in your suspension.

KDSS might allow for slightly easier suspension flex, but it definitely doesn't perform any miracles.

but I'll take a locker over KDSS any day of the week.

Oh, and KDSS also doesn't make you a better driver off road.

Had to use my locker to keep going, but I knew I would going in based on the line I chose.

We all know about the limits of the 4runner suspension. True.

KDSS allows for the anti-roll/sway bars to be effectively disconnected off-road. Does that increase overall suspension travel? Nope. You're right. BUT, that does NOT mean that it does not help.

See the picture in the prior page in my post. Taking out the sway bar up front increases compression 3 inches. Droop likely increased too. Both front and rear suspension effectiveness increase significantly. How significant? Well, that all depends on what your expectations are. For me, a 3" increase compression is pretty significant. Now, if you were expecting long-arms travel, then yeah, you would be disappointed...but that also shows your lack of understanding of the 4runner suspension!

RTI scores reflect the more flexy suspension with KDSS. RTI score of 100 difference is significant, esp. when tested by FourWheeler under the same conditions and using the same ramp, tools, etc..

Who says that KDSS is better than locker????? But, what does KDSS-equipped 4runners come with as standard equipment?? I believe that REAR LOCKER is standard, no? Why limit yourself then?

Remember, KDSS improves BOTH on-road and off-road. Can long arms do that? Can Bilstein 5100 do that? I doubt it...maybe I guess if you throw enough money at it! But, by that time, you might as well bought a Land Cruiser instead!

Who is talking about driver or fatties or blah blah? We're comparing VEHICLES...comparing TECHNOLOGY. If we're not talking about that, then I would bet that my Prius with me in it can beat a Land Cruiser up a rockledge if my deceased grandma was driving the Land Cruiser! In other words, it serves no purpose.

Does KDSS make you a worst driver?? That's news to me. You might as well throw the rear locker into that category too! Let me guess, the TRUE off-roader want their diffs to be OPEN, want no transfer case, want highway tires...because, that is what REAL TALENTED off-roaders want...otherwise, it ain't a challenge!

Yeah, and you think that SR5 or Limited will make it across that cross-axled part of the trail (in your picture above) any easier??!! But, I would bet that your TE had less rocking than SR5!! Again, you're missing the bigger picture...you're concentrating on the small parts here and there.

KDSS is NOT the answer to every off-road challenge. Not sure where that idea came from. Like a locker or A-TRAC, it is an additional tool to help. That is all. And it is better to have it, than not. Do you not agree??? You have the increased effective travel, while still having a rock solid on-road handling. Never forget the reason why KDSS was designed! Best of both worlds.

 

[Thai]

My posts from the other thread (links provided on first page of this thread)

Here is an old article:

"Since we liked the Lexus last year, it is no surprise that we liked it even better this year, since it has greater articulation. Sure, at first some of us thought the KDSS system was a gimmick. But then we ramped the GX and found that increased articulation was notable and, on a 20-degree ramp, provided a 519 RTI, compared to an RTI score of 428 on a GX 470 without KDSS. This increased articulation is readily apparent on the trail, where the flex of the rear suspension helps the Lexus stay planted on the ground so that it can find traction."

Read more: Four Wheeler: 2004 Four Wheeler of the Year

According to Edmunds link: (like harper i assume, Insideline crawled underneath the GX and examined the KDSS up close!)

"KDSS is a hydaulic system that's fully automatic -- there are no switches on the dash because there is no need to turn it on or off. Instead, the front and rear stabilizer bars feature hydraulic cylinders on their left-hand sides, with piping connecting the two and a valve in between.

In a corner, both cylinders are squeezed (right turns) or stretched (left turns) in the same direction. Such "in-phase" loading produces front and rear pressures that are more or less equal, which holds the valve closed to keep those cylinders absolutely rigid so the stabilizer bars can deliver their full roll-resisting effects.

But frame twist off-road conditions -- and our RTI ramp -- produce positive pressure in the cylinder that's being compressed and negative pressure in the one being stretched. Such "out-of-phase" axle articulation causes the valve to pop open, which makes the cylinders go limp and take the stabilizer bars out of the picture.

But the stabilizer bars are not cut in two; they're still one-piece hunks of bent metal. When rigid, the cylinder is merely a link holds the pivot bushing in space, much like the rear stabilizer bar setup on a Ford Mustang. But here the open valve allows the cylinder to expand and contract at will, allowing that pivot bushing to float around and prevent the stabilizer bar from generating any torque."
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So, i believe that what i wrote above is quite accurate, as backed up by Insideline (and personal experience seeing KDSS in action). KDSS does indeed "disconnect" the sways, but not in the traditional sense (like what Wrangler Rubicon and traditional off-roaders do).

According to Edmunds/Insideline:

"What's all this good for? Some 20.2 inches of wheel lift, almost 2 inches MORE than our unmodified 2012 Jeep Wrangler Sport 2-door managed and only a quarter-inch less than the Jeep with its big tires fitted."

 

[KCcarguy]

Here's the simple explanation. KDSS takes sways out of the equation off-road, right?

Well, that WAS the question. No one is sure if it takes the sways out of the equation completely, or just reduces their impact.....since the sways are "virtually" and not physically disconnected. Anyway....it obviously makes a big difference both on and off road and is well worth the money. Debate over as far as I'm concerned.:hatsoff:

 

[adam2562]

Well, that WAS the question. No one is sure if it takes the sways out of the equation completely, or just reduces their impact.....since the sways are "virtually" and not physically disconnected. Anyway....it obviously makes a big difference both on and off road and is well worth the money. Debate over as far as I'm concerned.:hatsoff:

I agree kdss gives more articulation.. maybe not as much as disconnecting it completely but still better than non-kdss