Knew that this would not last!

[chetJ]

Check this article out guys:

Ford Quality Tumbles as Japanese Win Consumer Reports Study - Businessweek

Reliability will always be the Achilles heal for American car makers!

 

[Ducmonsta]

haha...didn't know anything american made was even in the top 10, ever.

 

[Ripsnort]

JD Powers reliability rankings are much more accurate to real world data than Consumer Distorts...er Reports...

Just saying.

 

[Quentin]

JD Powers reliability rankings are much more accurate to real world data than Consumer Distorts...er Reports...

Just saying.

Any data backing that up? I get the manufacturer report from JD Power and have done a deep dive into the CR reports data (as deep as they release to subscribers, anyway). There really isn't anything I can recall being grossly different between the two. Other than CR's distaste for BOF SUVs in reviews, there isn't much that I disagree in general. CR's gas mileage testing is excellent, too.

 

[KCcarguy]

Any data backing that up? I get the manufacturer report from JD Power and have done a deep dive into the CR reports data (as deep as they release to subscribers, anyway). There really isn't anything I can recall being grossly different between the two. Other than CR's distaste for BOF SUVs in reviews, there isn't much that I disagree in general. CR's gas mileage testing is excellent, too.

I think Consumer Reports' data may be accurate, but their evaluations are very biased. Their reliability data for the 5th gen is very good (same as previous gens), but the "predicted reliability" is below average....why?

As far as "American" cars (many of which are not made in the U.S. anymore), they're crap and they'll always be crap because bang-for-the-buck and planned obsolescence is their business plan.

 

[Paragon1]

It's my firm belief that the "quality control" issues that plagued Toyota a couple years ago were over-hyped in an attempt to help american auto maker's sales.

 

[KCcarguy]

It's my firm belief that the "quality control" issues that plagued Toyota a couple years ago were over-hyped in an attempt to help american auto maker's sales.

Yeah, theres a bit of a conflict of interest when the government is majority share-holder in Toyota's competitor.

 

[ClockWork]

I will never own an American car, let alone one made here by a foreign company, ever.

 

[chetJ]

Completely agree

It's my firm belief that the "quality control" issues that plagued Toyota a couple years ago were over-hyped in an attempt to help american auto maker's sales.

I completely agree with this, especially since the whole thing about the sticky pedals seemed to die out over night as far as the media was concerned. Somebody payed someone to make it a big deal for that period of time.
It is disheartening to see how easily people got swayed by the whole deal though :ybrick: !!!!

 

[Quentin]

I think Consumer Reports' data may be accurate, but their evaluations are very biased. Their reliability data for the 5th gen is very good (same as previous gens), but the "predicted reliability" is below average....why?

That is perplexing, particularly considering that so much was carried over from the 4th gen, which is well regarded for reliability. A single data point doesn't make a trend, though. In general, their evaluations seem to be pretty accurate.

To Clockwork - TOYOTA MOTOR MANUFACTURING CANADA INC. | Toyota Celebrates J.D. Power and Associates PLATINUM Plant Quality Award in Cambridge, Canada Engines and transmissions are local sourced from a plant 6 miles from my house in WV. The manufacturing system is more important than where it is built. I do find it interesting that someone who refuses to buy an American manufactured vehicle on a quality basis has an Audi in the garage. My German-built '07 GTI was the least reliable vehicle I ever owned. I was averaging 4 visits to the dealer for repairs per year when I said enough was enough and kicked that brilliant-driving car to the curb over a year ago. (Yes, it was less than 4 years old and breaking that often.) They drive like no other, but VAG cars come standard with the hole-in-the-wallet feature.

 

[jirehn]

This is a wonderful post and the advice is priceless. Car hauler will never be out of vogue.

 

[Ripsnort]

Any data backing that up? I get the manufacturer report from JD Power and have done a deep dive into the CR reports data (as deep as they release to subscribers, anyway). There really isn't anything I can recall being grossly different between the two. Other than CR's distaste for BOF SUVs in reviews, there isn't much that I disagree in general. CR's gas mileage testing is excellent, too.

Sure, plenty.
On consumer reports response rates:
Of over 4 million questionnaires sent this year, the magazine received responses regarding about 480,000 vehicles," according to Detroit News. If most people reported on two cars (because most families have two or more cars), that would put the response rate at a mere 6%.

On buyers:
"the sort of people who buy [brand] [may be] the same sort of people who are rigorous about preventive maintenance. This isn't too unreasonable to imagine, as it would be characteristic of the same personality type: someone who goes out and meticulously researches all the cars, and thus seems like he or she would be conscientious about maintenance."

On lumping cars together for ratings:
Different drivetrains have different reliabilities -- CR often lumps them all together.
"I'd expect CR to point me to those unique problem(s) from different make-model-year combination. Those CR reliability reports, regardless how they were done, did not reveal those problems. For example, 6 months ago, I noticed a bunch of postings on [Japanese SUV] problem of blown head gasket, within the first 70k miles. I checked CR report on [vehicle] and compared to CAA report on the same make-model-year. Not surprisingly, CR reported a [best rating] under the "engine" category. And surprisingly CAA reported the same make-model-year a "much worse than average" two red-dots for that category."

Consumer reports never defines 'serious':
People who are inclined to buy different brands may define "serious" differently (see above). If you've never received a survey, ask a friend who subscribes to see theirs before they return it (if they return it). You will notice that Consumers' Reports really doesn't say what a "serious" problem is. I believe should define it or say "any" problem.

CR not reporting all needed information:
Consumers Reports does not report the number of people responding to each item, or the standard deviation. Supposing we found out that the standard deviation was fairly large - we could not reliably differentiate an above average from a below average rating? Perhaps they should use fewer categories - "above average," "average", "below average," where "above average" took the place of today's "much better than average."
What is the difference between an average and below average rating, in terms of actual owner ratings? Would five owners reporting "serious" problems cause a car to get a black dot instead of a red dot? How many does it take? When will they tell us?
Incidentally, what is the sampling error for each model? We really need this to know whether there is really a difference between two models we are considering.

The thing about statistics is you can manipulate them to whatever way you choose to.

Please read the full article. They are spot on IMO:

Statistical problems of Consumer Reports auto ratings

 

[ClockWork]

That is perplexing, particularly considering that so much was carried over from the 4th gen, which is well regarded for reliability. A single data point doesn't make a trend, though. In general, their evaluations seem to be pretty accurate.

To Clockwork - TOYOTA MOTOR MANUFACTURING CANADA INC. | Toyota Celebrates J.D. Power and Associates PLATINUM Plant Quality Award in Cambridge, Canada Engines and transmissions are local sourced from a plant 6 miles from my house in WV. The manufacturing system is more important than where it is built. I do find it interesting that someone who refuses to buy an American manufactured vehicle on a quality basis has an Audi in the garage. My German-built '07 GTI was the least reliable vehicle I ever owned. I was averaging 4 visits to the dealer for repairs per year when I said enough was enough and kicked that brilliant-driving car to the curb over a year ago. (Yes, it was less than 4 years old and breaking that often.) They drive like no other, but VAG cars come standard with the hole-in-the-wallet feature.

Audi far exceeds in quality and luxury to it's American counter-parts. The handling, performance, and general allure that is offered by such a vehicle as an S5 is unmatched. Quality is the main reason I won't buy American, I'm referring to the general texture and feeling of the materials inside and out. Audi carefully selected each piece of leather, carbon fiber, stitching, and plastic button to feel, respond, and have a unique tactile feel.

Top Gear's American road trip pretty much sums it up. The Corvette is built by two fat slobs looking to hit the pub after work as are other American vehicles and that is evident in their fit and finish, and general robustness overtime - so YES, people assembling it matter regardless of how its made. That statement is just ignorant. I was in somebody's Trailblazer the other day and it literally felt like it was going to fall apart.

 

[JohnJerk]

Let's not bash American too much! I hope for the day that I can justify the purchase of an American designed, manufactured, and assembled vehicle. Not so happy supporting the Japanese economy with my 2011 4R and 2011 Sienna, but also not willing to spend those big dollars foolishly...

 

[KCcarguy]

Audi far exceeds in quality and luxury to it's American counter-parts. The handling, performance, and general allure that is offered by such a vehicle as an S5 is unmatched. Quality is the main reason I won't buy American, I'm referring to the general texture and feeling of the materials inside and out. Audi carefully selected each piece of leather, carbon fiber, stitching, and plastic button to feel, respond, and have a unique tactile feel.

Top Gear's American road trip pretty much sums it up. The Corvette is built by two fat slobs looking to hit the pub after work as are other American vehicles and that is evident in their fit and finish, and general robustness overtime - so YES, people assembling it matter regardless of how its made. That statement is just ignorant. I was in somebody's Trailblazer the other day and it literally felt like it was going to fall apart.

German cars are beautifully made, but have plenty of reliability issues. Two people I work with have sold their mercedes because of this. One guy told me last week he's had his 60k mile GL500 in the shop "more times than I can count, easily over 20 times". My 2005 Tacoma, built in California, was extremely reliable. Toyota Highlanders, Camrys, and Honda Accords just to name a few are made in the US and all have great reliability. I believe it's more about QC and manufacturing than the nationality of the people who build the car.

The Top Gear attitude towards American cars is ridiculous. The worst cars in the world are made by Brits, so they have no room to talk. These guys criticize the Corvette for it's cheap materials while praising the Lotus Elise/ exige....give me a break.

 

[Quentin]

Sure, plenty.
On consumer reports response rates:
Of over 4 million questionnaires sent this year, the magazine received responses regarding about 480,000 vehicles," according to Detroit News. If most people reported on two cars (because most families have two or more cars), that would put the response rate at a mere 6%.

On buyers:
"the sort of people who buy [brand] [may be] the same sort of people who are rigorous about preventive maintenance. This isn't too unreasonable to imagine, as it would be characteristic of the same personality type: someone who goes out and meticulously researches all the cars, and thus seems like he or she would be conscientious about maintenance."

On lumping cars together for ratings:
Different drivetrains have different reliabilities -- CR often lumps them all together.
"I'd expect CR to point me to those unique problem(s) from different make-model-year combination. Those CR reliability reports, regardless how they were done, did not reveal those problems. For example, 6 months ago, I noticed a bunch of postings on [Japanese SUV] problem of blown head gasket, within the first 70k miles. I checked CR report on [vehicle] and compared to CAA report on the same make-model-year. Not surprisingly, CR reported a [best rating] under the "engine" category. And surprisingly CAA reported the same make-model-year a "much worse than average" two red-dots for that category."

Consumer reports never defines 'serious':
People who are inclined to buy different brands may define "serious" differently (see above). If you've never received a survey, ask a friend who subscribes to see theirs before they return it (if they return it). You will notice that Consumers' Reports really doesn't say what a "serious" problem is. I believe should define it or say "any" problem.

CR not reporting all needed information:
Consumers Reports does not report the number of people responding to each item, or the standard deviation. Supposing we found out that the standard deviation was fairly large - we could not reliably differentiate an above average from a below average rating? Perhaps they should use fewer categories - "above average," "average", "below average," where "above average" took the place of today's "much better than average."
What is the difference between an average and below average rating, in terms of actual owner ratings? Would five owners reporting "serious" problems cause a car to get a black dot instead of a red dot? How many does it take? When will they tell us?
Incidentally, what is the sampling error for each model? We really need this to know whether there is really a difference between two models we are considering.

The thing about statistics is you can manipulate them to whatever way you choose to.

Please read the full article. They are spot on IMO:

Statistical problems of Consumer Reports auto ratings

They basically said that quality expectations should be a standard instead of being variable that is controlled by the consumer. As a former quality engineer, I disagree. If you aren't meeting the customer's expectations, be it a $15k Corolla or a $70k Land Cruiser, your quality is poor. Expectations are different depending on the car and the target market. The point, particularly, about the "serious engine issue" is particularly interesting to me. If the belt breaks before the automaker suggests replacing it, it is a serious engine issue, IMO. All the expected maintenance is laid out in the owner's manual, which is easy to view before you buy the car. If something fails, and it leaves you stranded, before the owner's manual said you should replace it, that is a major failure. Allpar argues that shouldn't be considered a serious issue. Imagine if you were 500 miles from home and the timing belt broke and you were due at work the next day. Is that not a serious issue that could have been avoided had the manufacturer spec'd the right replacement interval? That isn't CR's responsibility to go through and say a timing belt should last XX,XXX miles. I haven't had time to digest everything else, but I don't think there is an intention to mislead or skew results on CR's part. I agree with the lies, damn lies, and statistics bit (former quality engineer, afterall), but there is still value in what CR releases. I think it goes without saying that pulling a sample isn't going to 100% guarantee that you will or won't have a problem. Just like a baseball player that bats .300. He isn't going to get a guaranteed 3 hits out of 10 at bats. There are more factors and you just do what you can do with the data you have.

Let's not bash American too much! I hope for the day that I can justify the purchase of an American designed, manufactured, and assembled vehicle. Not so happy supporting the Japanese economy with my 2011 4R and 2011 Sienna, but also not willing to spend those big dollars foolishly...

Your 2011 Sienna was designed at Toyota's US design studio, built in Indiana, and has an engine and transmission from one of Toyota's US unit plants.

Toyota Sienna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Toyota Motor Manufacturing, West Virginia, Inc. (TMMWV)

Audi far exceeds in quality and luxury to it's American counter-parts. The handling, performance, and general allure that is offered by such a vehicle as an S5 is unmatched. Quality is the main reason I won't buy American, I'm referring to the general texture and feeling of the materials inside and out. Audi carefully selected each piece of leather, carbon fiber, stitching, and plastic button to feel, respond, and have a unique tactile feel.

Yup, the materials in most VAG products are very nice (especially if you are spending over $30k). You also tend to pay a premium for those materials. This CR study isn't about material feel and texture, though. It is about how often the car lets you down relative to your expectation. If I buy a $50k Audi S5 and there is a sharp edge left from where the seam is on the mold used to make the glove box, I'm pissed. If it is on a $16k Elantra, well, it is a $16k Elantra afterall. I mean, you paid more money for those materials and ride quality, so they should be judged to a higher standard.

The person snapping the part in place at the vehicle plant has no control over how the material feels. The supplier builds the part to a set of standards and a pricepoint set by the OEM. The OEM sets their standards and pricepoints based on what importance and expectation the customer has for a given part. There is always some tradeoff. If Audi were to come up with a way to put the S5 interior into an A3 and sell it at Impreza prices, then I'd say that Audi, VAG, and Germany have capabilities possessed by no other manufacturers. As it stands, though, you are just getting what you paid for and that doesn't make Audi "unmatched", IMO. Their interiors are very nice... but their love of the dealership makes them not worth the money, IMO. As it stands, the vehicle assembly plant can put their supplied parts together as correct as possible and test the assembled vehicle as best as possible. I don't think Americans lack the ability to do this.

 

[offroadingatc]

Some pretty extreme opinions on here!

A lot of the quality differential between Japanese and US cars is just machining tolerances, which has nothing to do with where it is built/who builds it, just a set of standards set out by the company. I have friends who work at part supply plants than build for Toyota and Ford, and its as simple as that, Toyota demands x tolerance, and that number is lower than Fords. Lets not forget that there are areas where domestic cars excel, there is no argument that they have better paint/cc, Japanese paint sucks! For what its worth I have read that Fords slip in reliability (after their sudden rise) is being largely attributed to them being 'early adopters' of all the in-car technology, and having some growing pains with that. I personally respect any company that drags in car computer technology out of 1972. (and heaven knows it wont be Toyota)

I live in what was a real auto building area (SW Ontario) many cars seen driving around here with stickers 'Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign!' I had to remind a CAW union friend of mine that my wife's Matrix was assembled in Kitchener (30 minutes from my house) and his Fusion was assembled in Mexico. I get that its not that simple, but basically what I'm trying to say is that people have some pretty extreme, and often misguided, views on domestic/foreign automakers.

European cars are fantastic in design, and fit and finish (atleast in the past few years they have been) I question that they are much better than domestic in reliability though... just an opinion. Never owned one. Wife wants a Merc next time around, so we'll see

The corvette is actually really sweet, I got to ride in one, and it definitely did not strike me as cheap. It struck me as awesome. When I wasn't fearing for my life. I love top gear, but don't put a ton of stock into what those guys say, they have their biases, and their market!


Ultimately I love my 4runner and that is in no way dependent on it being better than anything else. I love it for what it is.

 

[zmw]

Audi far exceeds in quality and luxury to it's American counter-parts. The handling, performance, and general allure that is offered by such a vehicle as an S5 is unmatched. Quality is the main reason I won't buy American, I'm referring to the general texture and feeling of the materials inside and out. Audi carefully selected each piece of leather, carbon fiber, stitching, and plastic button to feel, respond, and have a unique tactile feel.

Top Gear's American road trip pretty much sums it up. The Corvette is built by two fat slobs looking to hit the pub after work as are other American vehicles and that is evident in their fit and finish, and general robustness overtime - so YES, people assembling it matter regardless of how its made. That statement is just ignorant. I was in somebody's Trailblazer the other day and it literally felt like it was going to fall apart.

This may be the most asinine comment on this thread - British cars have far and away the worst reliability of ANY nationality of cars, and making a comparison to the vette is a bad one because they are notoriously great performing for the dollar and EXCEEDINGLY reliable, even when modified to ludicrous levels.

You may not like the panel feeling or touch surfaces but comparing a 60k$ s5 to a 60k$ Z06 is comparing apples and oranges, one is a luxury coupe, the other is a sports car.

I won't pretend that every american car is reliable, but I know more guys with 200k-400k miles on their diesels than I know guys with toyotas that have that many miles so the capability is there.

Far too much American bashing in this thread, My family only drives toyota and I'm as much of a toyota lover as I can be but american made vehicles are not much lower quality and I have been less and LESS impressed with my toyotas as they have gotten newer. My 97 Supra was so over designed that i beat the piss out of it every day at over 800 to the tire on a stock block and it's got 167k miles on it. My 99 Land cruiser put up with 170k miles of lifted mudding 4 wheeling abuse, about the same on my 2004 Land cruiser, my 2007 4runner was niggled with electrical problems ranging from power windows to alarms to a constantly acting up trac system no matter how many times the dealer reset it - my 2008 GX470 was surprisingly reliable for 61k miles, but it was a model dating back to 2003 and lexus quality is always hands and shoulders above toyota - the 2011 4runner has been less than great so far, in just under 20k miles I've had the same weird traction control/yaw sensor issues that I had on the 2007, the car has perpetually blown 15A fuses for the cigarette lighters even though we NEVER plug anything into them which to me indicates a bigger electrical problem looming...

I guess my point is a car is what you make of it. I am absolutely absurd about maintenance and taking care of my vehicles, I have no doubt I could make a 4x4 tahoe last just as long as my 4 runners, but to just assume toyota is without fault or their quality is the same as it was 10 years ago is silly. I am also a stickler for ONLY buying J model toyotas, so that choice is dwindling day by day, it's why I won't buy a Tundra or a new Tacoma, or most of the other toyota line.

As for VAG cars, having owned literally 10 of them ranging from Porsche to Audi, BMW and VW - I will admit they call to my soul, and I love driving them, they feel solid but everyone I've owned had such expensive repair bills and such extensive time in the shop that I'm quite certainly any american car would have been more reliable... but I didn't buy twin turbo porsches cayennes (two of them) for reliability....

I think we all have the tendency to just assume american cars are crap, but they have responded to market demands just liek toyota has, toyota has ramped up production to meet market demand, and chevy and ford have had to step up quality significantly to still be competative. The new Cruz, fiesta, fusion, sonic, etc are all great examples of good quality improvements, panel gaps are much better than in the past and the cars really drive quite well.... I travel for a living and have been very impressed by the latest American companies have to offer (except for chrysler, except the jeep line they seemed to have missed the boat) in the past 3-4 years.

Just my .02

 

[KCcarguy]

I admit, I have a personal grudge against "American" car companies. I bought a new Ford pickup after college. I had it narrowed-down to a Toyota or Ford, and I specifically chose the Ford because it was American. After 85k miles the truck had so many issues I sold it because I couldn't tolerate any more repair bills. It was a huge mistake and I lost a ton of money on repairs and depreciation. Unlike Ford, Toyotas last far beyond 5 years and you can count on several years of trouble-free driving after the car is payed-off. My Tacoma didn't have so much as a rattle when I traded it this year after 107k miles. It looked and drove like new. I work hard for my money (and I made a lot less money right out of college when I had the Ford). People can say whatever they want about Ford/GM improving their quality, I'm not going to be a guinea pig with my money. I feel these companies have taken advantage of American's loyalty (and tax dollars) and I will do my very best not to make the mistake of buying American again.

 

[zmw]

I admit, I have a personal grudge against "American" car companies. I bought a new Ford pickup after college. I had it narrowed-down to a Toyota or Ford, and I specifically chose the Ford because it was American. After 85k miles the truck had so many issues I sold it because I couldn't tolerate any more repair bills. It was a huge mistake and I lost a ton of money on repairs and depreciation. Unlike Ford, Toyotas last far beyond 5 years and you can count on several years of trouble-free driving after the car is payed-off. My Tacoma didn't have so much as a rattle when I traded it this year after 107k miles. It looked and drove like new. I work hard for my money (and I made a lot less money right out of college when I had the Ford). People can say whatever they want about Ford/GM improving their quality, I'm not going to be a guinea pig with my money. I feel these companies have taken advantage of American's loyalty (and tax dollars) and I will do my very best not to make the mistake of buying American again.

I'm not defending their past behaviors at all - there is no doubt that the american cars of the 90s and even early 2000s were questionable at best. Bloated, expensive and well past their prime in terms of design and value.

I mean if you really want to see where the innovation and best bang for the buck is right now you need to be looking at the korean options because they are damn near toyota quality, warranty to match, and while many call the designs ripped off, having rented a high end genesis sedan I can tell you that car is bad ass and loved it.

If you've had an ill experience to turn you off to ford, I can't negate that, but in reality the ford ranger you owned coming out of college was probably one of their worst generations, I'm assuming that was during the period they were sharing technology with Mazda for the B series.

However even those trucks depended on the model line, the 4.0L v6 engines were bullet proof, where as the 2.7 and 3.0L models were much more problematic

I for one had great american vehicle experiences, I had a ZR2 blazer and a ZR2 S10 that i beat the hell out of in my 20s, both performed amazingly offroad, easily besting the tacoma/4runner of the period - In fact to get even close to performance I had to look at supercharged toyotas which put them 10-12k$ more than the ZR2s I was buying - I put 108k miles on a ZR2 blazer with only so much as oil changes, and tires - and I literally 4-wheeled that thing EVERY weekend and took it snowboarding every weekend there was snow on the ground.

When I look at a work truck next year you can be sure it will be an american truck, it will likely be a big diesel again and it will tolerate towning 20k lbs for hundreds of thousands of miles, so again quality is all in the beholder's eye...

good and bad in every lot is what I say... pick the right tool for the the job, and take care of it and you will likely yield similar results with nearly any vehicle choice as long as it's not German or British ;P

I choose twin turbo cayennes because it was one of the few cars I could buy that my wife would drive and that I still enjoyed driving, we paid for it dearly though - their resell was terrible and their maintenance was staggering, but somehow being able to run a 12.8 quarter @ 119 mph made all that not seem to matter much when it was in a 5000 lb SUV... however when i had to do the 4k$ 60k mile maintenance, i drew the line...

You can say toyota is the most reliable, this that and the other - but the ford/mercury/lincoln service cars have the largest fleet of multi hundred thousand mile vehicles on the road, nearly every taxi and service vehicle in the nation is one of those variants, you can say toyota makes a great truck, but when you turn it into a work truck they simply aren't capable of competing with the heavy duty offerings for any of the american 3...

again just my opinions here, but i can't hate on american vehicles as much as most on this board I think, I've some great experiences with them and one of the few cars to smoke my supra happened to be a built Z06 soooo....