Let's talk about Undercover Hidden Winch Mount System for Gen 5

[adrtoy]

Got it! Would you recommend I upgrade to a set of 6112's if I only want the winch & mount? (~100 lbs)

I do ~20,000 of highway miles a year so I want to keep the rig as stock as possible.

Thanks again for your help!

My .02 is your gonna have to do something like the 6112's or 5100's. I'd do one or the other on the second groove and drive it for 6 months and then have a look and see where your at then.

I'm sure some others will come along and offer some opinions as well.

 

[JustinB]

I like the HWS as well...anyone know if the extra weight of the mount and winch require stiffening the front suspension?

My father did this one: HWMS ? Hidden Winch Mount Specialist ? Online Store

5100's went on to the vehicle and I believe the 2nd setting leveled things out (no rake). He has the Smittybilt X2O 10,000lb winch with synthetic line. I think if you got a winch with steel cable you would definitely need the 5100's (or 6112's).

With the lightweight of synthetic cable and an 8k-10k lb winch you can probably get by without new shocks. And when I say 'get by' I mean have your front sit a bit lower and nose dive a bit harder while you just wait for the funds/time to install something better equipped to support the extra weight (stiffer springs and/or 5100/6112's).

If it were me, and it was my first crack at it, and I was strictly against lifting my rig, I would install the winch and winch mount system as is on stock suspension. But I would do this knowing full well that there is a very good chance I'm going to need to spend another $200 or so on the 5100's. That way, when I realized I didn't like the ride, it wouldn't be a surprise and I wouldn't have an issue/feel stuck with something I didn't want.

 

[Jetboy]

I like the HWS as well...anyone know if the extra weight of the mount and winch require stiffening the front suspension?

FWIW - I have a very similar custom built mount with a superwinch/synthetic rope. The total weight is around 125lbs. 80lbs for the winch. maybe 40lbs for the mount. And another few lbs for wires and such.

The front springs are IIRC 580lb/in spring rate. The leverage is 2:1 roughly. And the weight is divided 50% to each side. Adding 125lbs should change the static ride height by [125/(580/2]/2 = .21. So the winch should have around a 1/4 inch reduction in front ride height. About the same amount as adding a typical 150-200lb adult passenger in the passenger seat.

 

[Sleeter]

Im iso glad this thread got resurrected! I got to read [MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6163]phillyd2[/MENTION] get pissy about hi-lift usage. So awesome! I love forums! :banana:

 

[phillyd2]

Damn. I was pissy. Sorry Jetboy. :cheers:

 

[ade678]

Im iso glad this thread got resurrected! I got to read [MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6163]phillyd2[/MENTION] get pissy about hi-lift usage. So awesome! I love forums! :banana:

Can someone definite "hi-lift" usage for me (apologies for the newbie question)...I finally signed up to post on this forum today (after a year of just reading) and am totally psyched for the input!

 

[ade678]

OK, so I know that I'm so totally asking for trouble by asking about your calculations, seeing as how I'm new in town, and you're senior member, but I've always been one to ask for a beating!

Especially when nothing practical is at stake (So let me first thank you kindly for your help!)

I'm afraid I don't see that the two scenarios are equivalent.

(1) Weight of winch up front compresses the two front springs by .21, after which the compressed spring/strut now supports total weight...BUT this is only total weight, NOT balance. The rear must elevate .21 to compensate for the leverage up front. The net result is change in pitch of .42 (I think this is called rake, no?)

(2) Weight of 150-200 lb passenger compresses ALL springs by .21, AND balance remains the same (at least the pitch does, roll probably changes negligibly...

 

[Sleeter]

Can someone definite "hi-lift" usage for me (apologies for the newbie question)...I finally signed up to post on this forum today (after a year of just reading) and am totally psyched for the input!

It's a off-road thingy, i don't know what it is because I just bought mine to look kool. Google might know, try googling "high lift jack dangerous"...

 

[ade678]

My father did this one: HWMS ? Hidden Winch Mount Specialist ? Online Store

5100's went on to the vehicle and I believe the 2nd setting leveled things out (no rake). He has the Smittybilt X2O 10,000lb winch with synthetic line...

..With the lightweight of synthetic cable and an 8k-10k lb winch you can probably get by without new shocks. And when I say 'get by' I mean have your front sit a bit lower and nose dive a bit harder while you just wait for the funds/time to install something better equipped to support the extra weight (stiffer springs and/or 5100/6112's).

If it were me, and it was my first crack at it, and I was strictly against lifting my rig, I would install the winch and winch mount system as is on stock suspension. But I would do this knowing full well that there is a very good chance I'm going to need to spend another $200 or so on the 5100's.

Thanks for the superb advice! I think I'll do exactly as you suggest.

A few quick (?) questions:

(1) Would you go 5100's all around? (This summer towing I'm towing a ~2000 lb off-road teardrop from PA to UT to Alaska and over to Newfoundland before making my way back...maybe 12-15,000 miles...and I definitely plan to get lost!!!) I was planning to add some TTORSEQ Timbren Rear Suspension cushions to pick up the extra tongue weight, but maybe the 5100s are a better solution?

(2) I've got KDSS, which I suspect may complicate the installation. Is this an issue?

(3) During my normal life, the truck is the family daily driver (compromises!) so I'd like to avoid any lift other than whatever's necessary to keep the vehicle "level". From what I understand, a front set of 5100s can be adjusted for lift, but the rear set cannot...can an all around setup be rigged to that the truck "appears" as before (i.e., stock) in both rake and lift?

(4) Any reason to consider 6112's?

(5) Any winch suggestions...the Smittybilt seems great, but I'm kinda seduced by the wireless Warn (not that I have the cash)...what's so much better about it that it costs so much more?

.....OK, wow, I hope I haven't exhausted the forum's patience!

Many thanks for any help!

ade678

 

[phillyd2]

Can someone definite "hi-lift" usage for me (apologies for the newbie question)...I finally signed up to post on this forum today (after a year of just reading) and am totally psyched for the input!

We have rough mall parking lots around here :naughty:

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[JustinB]

Thanks for the superb advice! I think I'll do exactly as you suggest.

A few quick (?) questions:

(1) Would you go 5100's all around? (This summer towing I'm towing a ~2000 lb off-road teardrop from PA to UT to Alaska and over to Newfoundland before making my way back...maybe 12-15,000 miles...and I definitely plan to get lost!!!) I was planning to add some TTORSEQ Timbren Rear Suspension cushions to pick up the extra tongue weight, but maybe the 5100s are a better solution?

(2) I've got KDSS, which I suspect may complicate the installation. Is this an issue?

(3) During my normal life, the truck is the family daily driver (compromises!) so I'd like to avoid any lift other than whatever's necessary to keep the vehicle "level". From what I understand, a front set of 5100s can be adjusted for lift, but the rear set cannot...can an all around setup be rigged to that the truck "appears" as before (i.e., stock) in both rake and lift?

(4) Any reason to consider 6112's?

(5) Any winch suggestions...the Smittybilt seems great, but I'm kinda seduced by the wireless Warn (not that I have the cash)...what's so much better about it that it costs so much more?

.....OK, wow, I hope I haven't exhausted the forum's patience!

Many thanks for any help!

ade678

I'll answer what I can. I'm not well versed in the 5th gens...

(1) I'm not sure. I also am not well versed in towing so I can't speak to if the 5100's will help with towing or not. You only need them up front for the winch though (we put 5100's on his front when he got the winch. Only recently did 5100's in the back with a spacer lift).

(2) Also not sure. Since you're not aiming to lift the truck and only 'level' it at the most, I don't believe this is an issue. They're just shocks that fit in the factory location and maybe stretch things up a bit more if you want them to, nothing a swaybar couldn't handle. They are designed to replace and maintain factory heights, if you want them to. But, I'm no expert. Recommend some research, a search of '5100 KDSS' would probably turn up wonders.

(3) You should be able to set it up, with or without rear 5100's, to match stock heights. Your passengers probably won't notice and your ride won't really change if you 'level out' the truck (raise the front just a hair, reducing/eliminating factory rake). Then again maybe you don't want to do this if you're going to be towing (then you'd get reverse rake when the tongue is loaded). The fronts have a few settings, one of them will work for your needs.

(4) Not sure. Haven't done any research into bilstein products myself. I hear great things about 6112's, but I believe they are pricier. I hear good things about 5100's too. From what I gather in passing conversations, 5100's do the job, 6112's do the job and then some (probably not necessary for a rig that isn't being tested very extremely and is more of a road-tripping, gravel roading, daily driver, of which I mean no offense, that's where most of us started).

(5) The smittybilt x2o also has a wireless remote (that you can also plug in if the wireless fails on you), is 'waterproof' (at least up to the depths it would see on a rig that isn't a submarine), and is well regarded. I won't comment on which is better and why you should get one over another. That is just begging for this thread to be hijacked and a debate about winches to ensue which is 50% likely to include flaming. PM me if you want my personal opinion (everyone has one, some people have 2, about winches).

Again, I'm no expert. The things I say with confidence are from experience, the things I am wishy washy on I haven't seen for myself and have only read/heard.

Good luck!

 

[Jetboy]

Can someone definite "hi-lift" usage for me (apologies for the newbie question)...I finally signed up to post on this forum today (after a year of just reading) and am totally psyched for the input!

Hilift is a term for a type of jack that - as the name suggests - lifts to a high height. It's a common farming tool that is often found on offroad vehicles. It's handy for situations where a normal bottle jack doesn't work. Typically on soft surfaces where it may need to sink into the surface a ways before lifting. Or to lift a vehicle to a higher height to put something under the tires or move a vehicle off or an obstacle. Generally think deep snow or sand.

They're notoriously dangerous because they're inherently unstable and they're slow. Race trucks for example will always use a modified floor jack because they're a lot faster and safer to change tires. But the high lift is useful for a wide variety of offroad use. On level ground a bottle jack is still generally better for changing tires for a lot of reasons - safety being a big one. I would not change a tire with one unless it was my only option. You must lift the vehicle a lot higher to pick a tire off the ground and the resulting situation is usually quite unstable as compared to a bottle jack. The OEM bottle jack does a fine job. The only time I normally use mine offroad is to lift a tire up that's lost a bead to re-seat the tire bead.

The assembly that does the lifting is generally made from cast steel and rusts easily. If not lubricated regularly they don't work. It's common for people to store them exposed (for street cred) and then find out that they are rusted up when they want to use them. You can usually get them back to operation with a bit of motor oil in the field.

They are super handy for farming/ranching type tasks like pulling fence posts, pulling small trees, that type of stuff.

But I'll stand by my statement - 90% of them bolted to a jeep or 4runner are for show, most owners probably do not actually know how to even work the direction control mechanism, and most have never been used. They are a terrible winching tool. I would not consider one as an alternative. They can be reversed to work like a very short distance come-along. But they suck to try to use like that. And the distance of pull is so short it rarely does any good. If you use it with a snatch strap that stretches - you might as well just not even start, it'll never work. To make it work you will need around a 10 foot minimum length of chain and some hardware plus a bunch of other straps. By the time you put together all the stuff you'll need to bedazle your high lift with accessories you'll probably spend as much as a winch and weigh almost as much to boot. If you need a winch, you need a winch. A high lift will not replace it. Once you add a winch you'll almost never use a high lift or traction pads. A winch is a better mousetrap for getting un-stuck in nearly every scenario. There are of course exceptions, but they are infrequent. Between the two I'll take a winch without hesitation.

 

[Jetboy]

OK, so I know that I'm so totally asking for trouble by asking about your calculations, seeing as how I'm new in town, and you're senior member, but I've always been one to ask for a beating!

Especially when nothing practical is at stake (So let me first thank you kindly for your help!)

I'm afraid I don't see that the two scenarios are equivalent.

(1) Weight of winch up front compresses the two front springs by .21, after which the compressed spring/strut now supports total weight...BUT this is only total weight, NOT balance. The rear must elevate .21 to compensate for the leverage up front. The net result is change in pitch of .42 (I think this is called rake, no?)

(2) Weight of 150-200 lb passenger compresses ALL springs by .21, AND balance remains the same (at least the pitch does, roll probably changes negligibly...

It doesn't quite work like that. While the winch is in front of the front axle, it's effect of transferring weight from the rear axle is low. I don't have precise measurement of the distances from the winch COG to the front axle center, but using rough calculations it would cause as much as 20-25lbs of lift at the rear axle at the high end. So about the same as 3 gallons of gas in the tank.

A passenger is seated a bit behind the front axle, but also being close to it, most of the passenger's weight will be born by the front suspension. If the weight of a passenger is 30 inches aft of the front axle, 145lbs will be born by the front axle and 55lbs by the rear. Just eyeballing about 1/3 of the wheel base is 33 inches. I'd guess that's about right.

The rear springs are 180lb/in spring rate. 20lbs/2 would mean 10lbs on each side. That would translate to about 1/16th of an inch or less. I don't think you'd be able to identify any meaningful difference in the rear. A full tank of gas is around 125lbs, most of which is born by the rear axle. The height change in the rear through a tank of gas is about 5 times as much as that from a winch.

 

[ade678]

It doesn't quite work like that. While the winch is in front of the front axle, it's effect of transferring weight from the rear axle is low. I don't have precise measurement of the distances from the winch COG to the front axle center, but using rough calculations it would cause as much as 20-25lbs of lift at the rear axle at the high end. So about the same as 3 gallons of gas in the tank.

A passenger is seated a bit behind the front axle, but also being close to it, most of the passenger's weight will be born by the front suspension. If the weight of a passenger is 30 inches aft of the front axle, 145lbs will be born by the front axle and 55lbs by the rear. Just eyeballing about 1/3 of the wheel base is 33 inches. I'd guess that's about right.

The rear springs are 180lb/in spring rate. 20lbs/2 would mean 10lbs on each side. That would translate to about 1/16th of an inch or less. I don't think you'd be able to identify any meaningful difference in the rear. A full tank of gas is around 125lbs, most of which is born by the rear axle. The height change in the rear through a tank of gas is about 5 times as much as that from a winch.

Oh man! I've totally found the right forum! My mistake was to assume that the front springs act as a fulcrum to a static lever. But of course the fulcrum (front springs) compress, which is why my calculations are wrong!

Thanks!

....while I have your attention...could I trouble you to consider the following questions (copied from above)?

(1) Do you recommend I leave the suspension stock, or do you suggest somtehtin like 5100's. If so, would you go 5100's all around? (This summer towing I'm towing a ~2000 lb off-road teardrop from PA to UT to Alaska and over to Newfoundland before making my way back...maybe 12-15,000 miles...and I definitely plan to get lost!!!) I was planning to add some TTORSEQ Timbren Rear Suspension cushions to pick up the extra tongue weight, but maybe the 5100s are a better solution?

(2) My 4runner has KDSS. Do you know if this complicates installation of 5100's (or makes it impossible)?

(3) During my normal life, the truck is the family daily driver (compromises!) so I'd like to avoid any lift other than whatever's necessary to keep the vehicle "level". From what I understand, a front set of 5100s can be adjusted for lift, but the rear set cannot...can an all around setup be rigged to that the truck "appears" as before (i.e., stock) in both rake and lift?

(4) Any reason to consider 6112's?

Many many thanks!

 

[Jetboy]

Oh man! I've totally found the right forum! My mistake was to assume that the front springs act as a fulcrum to a static lever. But of course the fulcrum (front springs) compress, which is why my calculations are wrong!

Thanks!

....while I have your attention...could I trouble you to consider the following questions (copied from above)?

(1) Do you recommend I leave the suspension stock, or do you suggest somtehtin like 5100's. If so, would you go 5100's all around? (This summer towing I'm towing a ~2000 lb off-road teardrop from PA to UT to Alaska and over to Newfoundland before making my way back...maybe 12-15,000 miles...and I definitely plan to get lost!!!) I was planning to add some TTORSEQ Timbren Rear Suspension cushions to pick up the extra tongue weight, but maybe the 5100s are a better solution?

The suspension changes are kind of a personal preference thing. I think the OEM shocks are just okay - they're good for $35ea, but a 5100 is going to be a better shock for many circumstances. I personally did put new coilovers on my own vehicle for a lot of reasons and the added weight of the winch was a consideration. It's not necessary, but it still may be useful.

I would personally not put timbren rear suspension cushions. I would use air helper springs. For towing they work great. I had them on my last 4runner. I did not like some aspects, but I did like them for towing. They are relatively inexpensive and will give you better adjustment than timbrens. I've been seeking a perfect solution for rear height adjustment including having installed GX460 rear air springs and now removed them. I've been considering Fox or Sway away air shocks plus OEM coils as another height adjustment option, but that's another matter for another thread. Also FYI only the front 5100's have height adjustment. The rear shocks will not change ride height.

(2) My 4runner has KDSS. Do you know if this complicates installation of 5100's (or makes it impossible)?

KDSS does add some complication to installation. Search this site for how to do it properly. I have KDSS on mine and can swap a coilover in about 30 minutes per side - not including swapping springs to the new coilovers. I have done 5100's on my last 4runner. KDSS is a 5 minute differenc. It's not a big deal if you figure out how to do it properly.

(3) During my normal life, the truck is the family daily driver (compromises!) so I'd like to avoid any lift other than whatever's necessary to keep the vehicle "level". From what I understand, a front set of 5100s can be adjusted for lift, but the rear set cannot...can an all around setup be rigged to that the truck "appears" as before (i.e., stock) in both rake and lift?

Yes. The front are the only adjustable height ones because you can adjust where the coil spring perch sits. It's really adjusting the spring setting, not the shock absorber. They just happen to be the same component.

It's unlikely you'll get the height perfect, but you can get pretty darn close. In this case you've got to choose between being about 1/4" low or around 1/2" high on the +.75 setting. The other option is going to cost more, but you can get infinite height adjustment with more expensive coilover options like the Fox, King, Sway Away etc. IIRC the toytec kit uses 5100 shocks but adds a threaded adjuster for around $500. The Fox 2.0 are also adjustable with a threaded collar for around $900. So it's a significant bump up in cost to get that fine height adjustment. The one other option is a small top spacer above the coilover. Since you're only trying to correct for 1/4" height difference, and the lever ratio is 2:1, you'll only want a 1/8" spacer. I don't know if they make such a thing.

(4) Any reason to consider 6112's?

6112's are a larger diameter shock body with a better dampening piston design. They are going to do a better job at small bump compliance - softer ride - and still provide very good dampening on the big bumps. They're a nice incremental improvement. I have not owned them so I can't speak directly to the day to day ride quality with them

Many many thanks!

good luck!

 

[Jetboy]

Just as a follow up there are some great sponsors of this site who offer pretty good discounts on these parts. If you search around a bit you'll find them. Also FWIW, it's easy to spend a lot of $ for marginal benefits. And for whatever reason Fox sells some of its stuff in pairs and some individually, so be careful ordering Fox in particular to make sure you get a pair not a single item.

 

[ade678]

Just as a follow up there are some great sponsors of this site who offer pretty good discounts on these parts.

Thanks again for the advice! Three quick followup questions:

(1) I may also add a 3/16" skid plate...in which case the first setting on the 5100's may get me just about level, no?

(2) Sponsors? Discounts? Where?

(3) If I scrape together the extra $$$, do you have a recommended upgrade (i.e., brand/model no.) from the 5100's for the front shocks?

Thanks!

 

[Binx159]

Pilfreybilt v HWMS?

All- I just purchased a 17 4R and have ordered a Warn Zeon 10s Platinum but have not decided on which hidden mount system to get. Pilfrey and HWMS seem to be the most common, any thoughts from the board on which I should order and why? I'm not concerned with additional recovery points, I simply want the one that is manufactured the best, is least intrusive, and likely requires the least amount of 'surprise' fabrication.

I'm new to Toyota so I am still learning about the different brands. I've read quick a bit on here, but have not found anything of late and anything that compares the two. Thanks!

 

[ds4runner]

My .02 is your gonna have to do something like the 6112's or 5100's. I'd do one or the other on the second groove and drive it for 6 months and then have a look and see where your at then.

I'm sure some others will come along and offer some opinions as well.

Just dropping in... I have 5100s set at 1.75 w a 1" rear spacer. If i add a hidden winch should i set the front to 2.5" or will it be fine at 1.75?

 

[doro89]

Just dropping in... I have 5100s set at 1.75 w a 1" rear spacer. If i add a hidden winch should i set the front to 2.5" or will it be fine at 1.75?

I'm having exactly same debate. I want to have not more than 1" lift in the back since I have 265/70/17 AT tires, if it will be over 1" I feel it will look odd.
As for the front, I'm wondering how much "sag" will I get with a winch and mounting plate totaling at around 100lbs?
I'm assuming I would get "sag" with stock suspension since it's softer, and with 5100s it will be a different story.
Anyone had experience with this?