Lift options without replacing UCA

[Jono.ful]

Did you rotate those tires frequently enough? The picture look like possibly your front toe was off more so than camber. Granted I've never tried this on an SUV, but in the past on my small cars I could get away with plenty of camber (-2 degrees or more) on one end as long as I rotated frequently enough. Camber does not create uneven wear nearly as fast as excessive toe in/out. Especially at what you had it set to, 0.5 degree of camber is insignificant in the grand scheme of things

To my understanding the camber and caster are the only two settings that need to compromise with each other due to the factory adjustment design, and neither one should cause that kind of wear you experienced. There should be plenty of toe adjustment left at the tie rods regardless of whatever you set the LCA cams to...I think your alignment techs are jerking you around, lol. I kind of understand why though, it seems like a major pain in the arse to do correctly...I watched my guy move one cam, and the other one goes off; move the other one and sure enough the original one is off again. Seems like a lot of patience is required to dial it in nicely

The three main causes for premature tire wear are improper toe, improper pressure and improper rotation schedules.

again, the tire wear in this photo was the result of a second alignment that I cannot find the spec sheet for, but I was told that the alignment was the best they could do with my no UCA set up, and represented a compromise because they could not get everything within spec. The tires shown are Hankook iPike RW11 in 265/75/17. They were on for one winter, from mid november to march, I travelled approximately 8000km in that time, of which probably 85% was highways. They were not rotated, but there is absolutely no way they would have been so unevenly worn had the alignment been correct, or even close. I have photos of the others for reference if need be.

 

[Jono.ful]

I personally find it interesting that in a community with this many members who are all running very similar, if not identical suspension setups that we can all get such hugely varying alignment specs. It would seem to suggest that, given the consistency of the equipment, the average alignment tech is piss poor at their job.

 

[Ducmonsta]

I personally find it interesting that in a community with this many members who are all running very similar, if not identical suspension setups that we can all get such hugely varying alignment specs. It would seem to suggest that, given the consistency of the equipment, the average alignment tech is piss poor at their job.

It's the shops that people take it to. Your average discount tire, NTB, sears, and other big box stores do not hire quality technicians. Independents might. There ARE good techs at dealerships, but you have to find them. And then, people like me, will hunt them down and steal them to come work for me. The typical alignment tech will only get paid .6 to .8 of an hour to align a vehicle. That includes the time it takes to test drive the vehicle, rack it on a lift, check tire pressures, set the alignment heads, jounce the vehicle and set win toe. And then agpfter that, they have to go on another test drive. Getting paid less than an hour for most vehicles works out ok. But throw in aftermarket components, lifted or lowered suspensions, aftermarket wheels that they have to be careful not to scratch, and that .8hr just became unprofitable for the tech.

People think that $150 is highway robbery for alignments. That's what I charged at High Tech if you had a 0modified vehicle. There were additional charges if you had over 20" wheels. Even more if I had to adjust non oem components. You could easily be charged over $200 for a ONE time alignment. I'm sure I lost plenty of sales but I also gained twice as much when they came back because NTB couldn't do it or messed something up.

What blows my mind is that the alignment process isn't that difficult to understand. It just takes an understanding technician to deal with it.

 

[Jono.ful]

It's the shops that people take it to. Your average discount tire, NTB, sears, and other big box stores do not hire quality technicians. Independents might. There ARE good techs at dealerships, but you have to find them. And then, people like me, will hunt them down and steal them to come work for me. The typical alignment tech will only get paid .6 to .8 of an hour to align a vehicle. That includes the time it takes to test drive the vehicle, rack it on a lift, check tire pressures, set the alignment heads, jounce the vehicle and set win toe. And then agpfter that, they have to go on another test drive. Getting paid less than an hour for most vehicles works out ok. But throw in aftermarket components, lifted or lowered suspensions, aftermarket wheels that they have to be careful not to scratch, and that .8hr just became unprofitable for the tech.

People think that $150 is highway robbery for alignments. That's what I charged at High Tech if you had a 0modified vehicle. There were additional charges if you had over 20" wheels. Even more if I had to adjust non oem components. You could easily be charged over $200 for a ONE time alignment. I'm sure I lost plenty of sales but I also gained twice as much when they came back because NTB couldn't do it or messed something up.

What blows my mind is that the alignment process isn't that difficult to understand. It just takes an understanding technician to deal with it.

I've dealt with two independents and my dealer. I think I've got a good guy now, unfortunately he's a 10 hour drive away.

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

Wow...mine does not drive well with the caster around 2.7. @ 1, I would be all over the place! Also, I did not know that the techs got paid per job....F that. No wonder it's impossible to find a good alignment shop.

 

[Ducmonsta]

Wow...mine does not drive well with the caster around 2.7. @ 1, I would be all over the place! Also, I did not know that the techs got paid per job....F that. No wonder it's impossible to find a good alignment shop.

Your average petroleum recycling technician is probably hourly. That's why it takes forever to get your oil serviced at a dealership. They are what's considered in the industry to be a "C" tech. The next level is "B" tech. They have the capabilities to do slightly larger jobs (brakes, flushes, alignments, etc.). They can do some of the "A" tech work with supervision. The "A" technician is the one that does all of the diagnoses. Depending on how the shop is set up, there could be teams. Probably an A tech with 1-2 B techs and 1-2 C techs.

I specifically asked to have an over qualified technician to do my last oil service at the local dealership. They generally don't like to do C tech work but in my case it benefits him. I told them to not bother with the "courtesy checklist" that ALL shops perform. Its a way to generate money as I'm sure you all know. That check list usually means: Check tire pressure, check all fluids (washer, oil, trans, diffs, tcase, coolant, p/s), check all lights, lube all doors and hinges, check engine and cabin air filter, lube drivetrain, pull OBDII codes, check wipers, check spare tire pressure, and so forth. It's definitely not worth an A techs time. Usually they'll get paid .3 to .6 of and hour for an oil service. But when I came in, I said that I wanted none of that. Don't waste your time. This particular dealer paid .6hr for an oil service. That tech would do that ALLLLL day long if that's all he had to do. He could have been done in 15 minutes.

I believe the average A technician is getting $25-$50/hr depending on location. So at .6/hr he'll make $14-$33 for 15mins worth of work. It behooves a technician to be efficient if they are paid on commission. That's why alignment jobs are left to the C or B technician. A kid that has the capabilities to get it done right, but not necessarily the best way.

 

[Nom4Runner]

Hmmm how about this.

Option 1
Front:
TOYTEC/EIBACH FRONT COIL LIFT SPRINGS - 3" lift
Toytec/Eibach front coil lift springs
with
Bilstein's 5100 (Set to 0.85"?)

Rear:
TOYTEC "SUPERFLEX" REAR COILS (FJ & 03-09 4RUN) - 2" Rear Lift
ToyTec "Superflex" rear Coils (FJ & 03-09 4Run)
with
Bilstein's 5100

UCA: ($449.....)
LIGHT RACING UPPER CONTROL ARMS FOR FJ & 03-09 4RUN
Light Racing Upper Control Arms for FJ & 03-09 4Run

Option 2
Front:
FRONT OME LIFT COILS 884 - 2" lift standard coils
Front OME Lift Coils
with Bilstein's 5100 (Set to 1.75?)

Rear:
Sway-A-Way 1.5″ Lift Rear Coil Set - 1.5" lift
Sway-A-Way 1.5" Lift Rear Coil Set
with Bilstein's 5100

UCA:
Stock

Option 3
Front:
OME 884 - 3" lift
http://wheelersoffroad.com/product/old-man-emu-205552/old-man-emu-2884-front-coil-set/
with
Bilstein's 5100 (set at 2.5?)

Rear:
OME 2895E - 2" lift
http://wheelersoffroad.com/product/old-man-emu-205552/old-man-emu-2895e-rear-coil-set/
with
Bilstein's 5100

UCA:
Stock

 

[thebwlife]

Hmmm how about this.

Option 1
Front:
TOYTEC/EIBACH FRONT COIL LIFT SPRINGS - 3" lift
Toytec/Eibach front coil lift springs
with
Bilstein's 5100 (Set to 0.85"?)

Rear:
TOYTEC "SUPERFLEX" REAR COILS (FJ & 03-09 4RUN) - 2" Rear Lift
ToyTec "Superflex" rear Coils (FJ & 03-09 4Run)
with
Bilstein's 5100

UCA: ($449.....)
LIGHT RACING UPPER CONTROL ARMS FOR FJ & 03-09 4RUN
Light Racing Upper Control Arms for FJ & 03-09 4Run

Option 2
Front:
FRONT OME LIFT COILS 884 - 2" lift standard coils
Front OME Lift Coils
with Bilstein's 5100 (Set to 1.75?)

Rear:
Sway-A-Way 1.5″ Lift Rear Coil Set - 1.5" lift
Sway-A-Way 1.5" Lift Rear Coil Set
with Bilstein's 5100

UCA:
Stock

Option 3
Front:
OME 884 - 3" lift
Old Man Emu 2884 Front Coil Set
with
Bilstein's 5100 (set at 2.5?)

Rear:
OME 2895E - 2" lift
Old Man Emu 2895E Rear Coil Set
with
Bilstein's 5100

UCA:
Stock

Option 1 & 3 you need UCAs.

 

[Nom4Runner]

What UCA are you using with your OME Lift?

Anyone running a LIFT similar to Option 2?

 

[thebwlife]

What UCA are you using with your OME Lift?

Anyone running a LIFT similar to Option 2?

No UCAs, but I need them - story is in my build thread. I'm not within spec on alignment. Long story short I took everyone's advise that said it was optional, but now I'm not in spec. If your paying someone to do this (labor) do it right the time. Luckily I don't pay for labor for this kinda stuff.

Option 2 - there was a guy named like ems_____ something that had that lift. SAWs provide 2" of lift on our trucks.

Option 3 - bilstiens need to be set on 0" lift. The spring will provide the lift.

 

[Nom4Runner]

That's a good write up in your build thread! So I saw this

wishing I would have done is 5100’s all around with the fronts at 1.75” and a 1.5” spacer (1” actual lift seen) paired with 265/70/17 BFG TA KO (C) load tires

So you would have used the Stock Springs/Coils and rocked 1.75" in the front and a 1.5" spacer in the rear? I was considering a Daystar 1.5" rear spacer as well.

Oh and FireFighter_EMT with Option 2
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/79394-my-sr5-build.html

 

[T4R_Finally]

That's a good write up in your build thread! So I saw this

So you would have used the Stock Springs/Coils and rocked 1.75" in the front and a 1.5" spacer in the rear? I was considering a Daystar 1.5" rear spacer as well.

Oh and FireFighter_EMT with Option 2
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/79394-my-sr5-build.html

I have a set of DAYSTAR rears I didn't use. Let me know if interested.

 

[thebwlife]

That's a good write up in your build thread! So I saw this

So you would have used the Stock Springs/Coils and rocked 1.75" in the front and a 1.5" spacer in the rear? I was considering a Daystar 1.5" rear spacer as well.

Oh and FireFighter_EMT with Option 2
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/79394-my-sr5-build.html

Yep- that would be a really good low lift combo. Or 275's if you need new tires.

 

[Rubberdown]

I'm not trying to be a contrarian or anything, but I have my kings on with stock upper control arms and no issues. They droop as far as the kings will droop with no issues, although I'm sure it's probably not the best thing for them. When I installed them I took it to Toyota and an hour later had it back with everything in the green. I told the guy to call me if there were any issues at all and he said there were none. Drives great, no tire wear, I'm happy. That being said, one day I want the long travel kit.

 

[thebwlife]

I'm not trying to be a contrarian or anything, but I have my kings on with stock upper control arms and no issues. They droop as far as the kings will droop with no issues, although I'm sure it's probably not the best thing for them. When I installed them I took it to Toyota and an hour later had it back with everything in the green. I told the guy to call me if there were any issues at all and he said there were none. Drives great, no tire wear, I'm happy. That being said, one day I want the long travel kit.

Print out of alignment?

 

[eddiebx]

What UCA are you using with your OME Lift?

Anyone running a LIFT similar to Option 2?

Option 2 reporting for duty sir :usa2:

Don't mind the red line, I was trying to eyeball something and can't find the unmolested picture, lol.

OME 883 on the front and SAW 1.5" coil in the back, 5100s all around with the front on the 0" perch. I didn't take extremely precise measurements but all in all ~2" lift at each corner after settling.

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

Your average petroleum recycling technician is probably hourly.

Thanks for the info! Next time I go in, I will stress the exact specs that I want and tell them not to bother with any of the other BS. I'm sure the tecs don't wanna waste time looking for issues on a vehicle with 20k any more than I want to sit around while they do. I have 2 places around my house that do alignments. The first is an old shop, which I felt might do a good job, but all reviews seem to indicate that the guy is a huge dick. The second is Firestone, which had normal reviews for a shop like this, but I got the lifetime deal for $160, so that's a plus (lol kinda sorta?...). I think I'm just going to call the manager and see if I can have it redone.

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

Option 2 reporting for duty sir :usa2:

Don't mind the red line, I was trying to eyeball something and can't find the unmolested picture, lol.

OME 883 on the front and SAW 1.5" coil in the back, 5100s all around with the front on the 0" perch. I didn't take extremely precise measurements but all in all ~2" lift at each corner after settling.

BTW This looks really good and is the exact look I'm going for. :thumb:

 

[Rubberdown]

Print out of alignment?

I'm pretty sure I threw it away several months ago. Sorry.

 

[Nom4Runner]

Option 2 reporting for duty sir :usa2:

Don't mind the red line, I was trying to eyeball something and can't find the unmolested picture, lol.

OME 883 on the front and SAW 1.5" coil in the back, 5100s all around with the front on the 0" perch. I didn't take extremely precise measurements but all in all ~2" lift at each corner after settling.

Thanks! Were you able to get your 4Runner aligned properly? Also, in the front you are using OME 883. Is there a reason why you went with OME 883 over OME 884? So the Front Bilstein's are set to "No Lift" 0" because the OME 883 is providing the lift correct?