Light in the diesel tunnel

[JeremyB]

North American diesel is too dirty still. this is a pipe dream

It sure is, even the 5 per cent low sulphur. But apparently Toyota's urea catalyst reduction system (like VW's, Mercedes' Audi et al) now eliminates up to 99 percent of emissions of NOx. And making these engines more globally palatable is a small catalyst married to a simplified exhaust layout. At least that's what Toyota is saying.

As I understand it, European and US diesel have similar sulfur content (ULSD).

The problem with bringing over European diesels is the US emissions standards focus on NOx, while European standards focus on CO2. European diesels don't meet the strict US NOx standard and thus have to add all the post-treatment items to meet regulations in 'murica. If Toyota finally has a treatment system that meets mark, they can finally sell stuff here.

 

[Dalko43]

To the extent that small diesel trucks are popular over there it's because rural Aussies work those trucks, while we get big diesel trucks because rural Americans work those trucks. It has nothing to do with travelling across the Outback.

I would firmly disagree with that, especially the part in bold. If you read up on the overlanding/offroad culture in Australia, South Africa, parts of Europe and other regions, you'll see that the diesel is almost universally bought by those enthusiasts because of its fuel economy, long-term reliability, and carrying/towing capacity.

There are certainly some who use them as work trucks, but that doesn't seem to be the main reason for their popularity.

And Nissan and Chevy are behind Jeep in terms of reintroducing diesel in midsize utility rigs, and they're going to learn what Jeep is learning - they don't sell well in the US. Those other companies are forced to gamble and play to smaller markets to try and keep up, but Toyota is ultraconservative and already sits on top of most of the hills they want to sit on top of. They will not enter the diesel market in the US until it's a proven moneymaker, and if that ever happens it'll be a long time from now.

Jeep is selling diesels in the US, maybe not as much as they'd like, but then again who is in the market for a car-based luxury crossover with a diesel...I think they put the diesel into the wrong platform. The Wrangler would have been a much better and more logical application for their diesel engine.

And as for diesels not selling, I think you should look at Ram's and Ford's diesel offerings...they seem to be doing just fine.

Diesels historically had a hard time making headway in the North American markets for 2 reasons:

1) They used to be dirty and unrefined.

2) Gasoline V-8's have always had the homefield advantage due to nostalgia, visceral feel, high-end power which appeals to a lot of buyers.

With the rising emissions regulations and concern over pollution, V-8's have been on a steady decline over the last few years (with the exception of work trucks and high-end performance cars). For people who want the torque/grunt and towing capacity of a V-8, but better mpg and more eco-friendly...modern clean/efficient diesels offer the best option. American and now Japanese pickup's have already bought into this line of thinking and it's only a matter of time before BOF SUV's follow suite.

Edit: for the record, I also see turbo-charging as a possible option for gas engines. I have yet to see anyone put out a turbo-gas powered body-on-frame SUV, so I guess we'll have to wait and see what they come up with.

 

[BOVADS]

Until they can make them reliable as a proven gas motor AND pass all the EPA garbage it won't happen.

 

[1engineer]

I would firmly disagree with that, especially the part in bold. If you read up on the overlanding/offroad culture in Australia, South Africa, parts of Europe and other regions, you'll see that the diesel is almost universally bought by those enthusiasts because of its fuel economy, long-term reliability, and carrying/towing capacity.

There are certainly some who use them as work trucks, but that doesn't seem to be the main reason for their popularity.



Jeep is selling diesels in the US, maybe not as much as they'd like, but then again who is in the market for a car-based luxury crossover with a diesel...I think they put the diesel into the wrong platform. The Wrangler would have been a much better and more logical application for their diesel engine.

And as for diesels not selling, I think you should look at Ram's and Ford's diesel offerings...they seem to be doing just fine.

Diesels historically had a hard time making headway in the North American markets for 2 reasons:

1) They used to be dirty and unrefined.

2) Gasoline V-8's have always had the homefield advantage due to nostalgia, visceral feel, high-end power which appeals to a lot of buyers.

With the rising emissions regulations and concern over pollution, V-8's have been on a steady decline over the last few years (with the exception of work trucks and high-end performance cars). For people who want the torque/grunt and towing capacity of a V-8, but better mpg and more eco-friendly...modern clean/efficient diesels offer the best option. American and now Japanese pickup's have already bought into this line of thinking and it's only a matter of time before BOF SUV's follow suite.

Edit: for the record, I also see turbo-charging as a possible option for gas engines. I have yet to see anyone put out a turbo-gas powered body-on-frame SUV, so I guess we'll have to wait and see what they come up with.

You have no idea right?
No large OEM markets their vehicle strictly to the "overland" or "off highway" crowd. Why? Because it's TINY! Sure, diesel is popular with the hundreds ( not thousands or millions) of off road enthusiasts but that is all. What they do is market to the MILLIONS who dream and think about that lifestyle. Basically, OEM's market to posers lol. Posers who want the look or the capability IN CASE they ever decide to take it off road, which they won't.

Again, for Toyota to bring a diesel to North America there must be a business case that supports it. Right now there is not.

I'm quite sure Toyota knows exactly how to meet emissions standards here in the US for a diesel engine. It's not hard, it's expensive, cumbersome, robs performance and most importantly, NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE WANT IT TO MAKE IT A VIABLE PRODUCT OFFERING! How hard is that to figure out! Just because eight people here want a diesel does not make it right! Trucks are a different story because some are actually produced to do work.

 

[Dalko43]

Until they can make them reliable as a proven gas motor AND pass all the EPA garbage it won't happen.

Are you for real?

In case you haven't heard, Ford, Ram, Jeep, among others, currently sell diesels that meet EPA regulations. Nissan and others are about to introduce diesels as well.

As for diesels being as reliable as gas engines you should do a little research into the subject.

A properly maintained diesel will outlast a gas engine by hundreds of thousands of miles.

 

[KidVermicious]

I would firmly disagree with that, especially the part in bold. If you read up on the overlanding/offroad culture in Australia, South Africa, parts of Europe and other regions, you'll see that the diesel is almost universally bought by those enthusiasts because of its fuel economy, long-term reliability, and carrying/towing capacity.

There are certainly some who use them as work trucks, but that doesn't seem to be the main reason for their popularity.

Horsepucky :biggrin1:. With respect, your second statement is completely wrong. The things that make a small diesel a popular choice for overlanders are the same things that make it a good choice for cattle and sheep ranchers, and those working men vastly outnumber the overlanders by several orders of magnitude. The preference of four-wheelers and overlanders barely registers on the radar of the car manufacturers.

Trucks are a different story because some are actually produced to do work.

Exactly. Australians work little trucks, so they get little diesels. We work big trucks, we get big diesels.

 

[Dalko43]

Again, for Toyota to bring a diesel to North America there must be a business case that supports it. Right now there is not.

The whole drive to produce to cleaner more efficient gas engines (aka turbo engines and hybrids) provides the exact reason/motivation to produce clean diesels.

There is plenty of demand for eco-friendly high-torque engines, in the overlanding community and elsewhere. That's why Ford, Ram, and others are selling diesels...there is plenty of demand for those engines....it simply comes down to whether or not Toyota wants to do the R&D and pay the cost to make them legal for the US.

 

[Dalko43]

Horsepucky :biggrin1:. With respect, your second statement is completely wrong. The things that make a small diesel a popular choice for overlanders are the same things that make it a good choice for cattle and sheep ranchers, and those working men vastly outnumber the overlanders by several orders of magnitude. The preference of four-wheelers and overlanders barely registers on the radar of the car manufacturers.



Exactly. Australians work little trucks, so they get little diesels. We work big trucks, we get big diesels.

Why don't do you do a little reading and tell me how many diesel passenger cars and crossovers are sold in Australia, Europe, Africa versus gas-powered.

Diesel has widespread acceptance in those areas, and it's not because everyone in those regions needs a good "farm truck," as you suggested.

 

[1engineer]

The whole drive to produce to cleaner more efficient gas engines (aka turbo engines and hybrids) provides the exact reason/motivation to produce clean diesels.

There is plenty of demand for eco-friendly high-torque engines, in the overlanding community and elsewhere. That's why Ford, Ram, and others are selling diesels...there is plenty of demand for those engines....it simply comes down to whether or not Toyota wants to do the R&D and pay the cost to make them legal for the US.

Diesels are not cleaner. Diesels are not frigging "eco friendly." YOU do some research and quit buying into the marketing hype. Ford, Ram and others are NOT selling a lot of diesels. They are selling a small amount with respect to their market. There is not plenty of demand, there is a small demand. Otherwise the numbers would go up right?
Toyota has done the R&D man and determined the demand is not there to justify the cost. How hard is that to understand? I cannot make it any simpler than that!

Why don't do you do a little reading and tell me how many diesel passenger cars and crossovers are sold in Australia, Europe, Africa versus gas-powered.

Diesel has widespread acceptance in those areas, and it's not because everyone in those regions needs a good "farm truck," as you suggested.

No, it's because diesel is less expensive than gasoline in Australia. Today, it is 142 cents per liter for gas. It is 134 cents per liter for diesel. People can justify buying a diesel (and paying a premium up front) because eventually they will come out ahead due to the higher efficiency and lower fuel cost.

In the US, today's average is $2.81 per gallon for gasoline and $2.85 for diesel. This is as close as these prices have been. Not too long ago it was fifty cents higher. Awhile back it was almost a dollar higher.

Today in Germany it is around 1.5 Euro per litre for gasoline. For diesel it is 1.2 euro per litre! There are 3.78 liters in a gallon and the euro is at 1.11 against the dollar today. That's about a $1.25 a gallon savings! I would drive a diesel there too!

Let me get this straight: You want me to pay $5K additional up front to get an engine that gets 28 mpg instead of 20 mpg right? Now you want me to pay more for my fuel and more for my maintenance. You want me to do that for a vehicle that is not built to tow or haul heavy stuff so I don't need the torque. Let me give you the answer that Toyota marketing already knows. No way. That is a lose lose lose proposition. Any idiot knows that.

 

[KidVermicious]

Why don't do you do a little reading and tell me how many diesel passenger cars and crossovers are sold in Australia, Europe, Africa versus gas-powered.

They sure do. Because they already have an abundance of small diesel motors, because that's what they use in their working trucks. US doesn't favor small working trucks, hence we have far fewer small diesels. Thanks for making my point. :thumb:

Toyota will bring a diesel to the US when it makes sense for them to so, and that's not going to be any time soon. Ask Mercedes and Volkswagen about mass acceptance of their diesel powerplants in the US, and get back to me when you've got a point to make that doesn't blow away your entire argument.

 

[philsey]

[MENTION=120402]Dalko43[/MENTION] Just curious. I hope you can answer this honestly.

Please tell us about your OWNERSHIP record of a diesel vehicle. NON of these count: Reading/studying/he-said-experiences/BIL,SIL,MIL/friend-of-a-friend et al.

You 'seem' WAY too interested to have actually owned one.

Yes.... I have. It's just not all that cool.

Also bear in mind that you do not live in Europe .... oh and I read recently that France (?) has/or will ban diesels within Paris (?) city limits (smog).

 

[1engineer]

Diesels currently make up a whopping 2.88% of the US passenger vehicle market. Enough said.

 

[KidVermicious]

Ok, to shift this around to a more positive and entertaining note, what would it take to get Toyota to bring a diesel engine into the US, and how will we know when it's happening? Watch the Colorado and Titan. If both of those trucks sell their diesel versions well and start eating up too much Tacoma and Tundra market share, Toyota will put a diesel on the table in self defense - first in the Tundra, then in the Tacoma. Then, maybe, in the 4Runner. If neither of those trucks do well and sales of domestic diesels keep declining, the Toyota execs will sit back and high five eachother and go on about their business of dominating the world vehicle market by not hopping on bandwagons.

 

[KidVermicious]

oh and I read recently that France (?) has/or will ban diesels within Paris city limits (smog).

I should hope so. I think if Germany banned diesels within Paris city limits there might be trouble.

 

[Dalko43]

[MENTION=120402]Dalko43[/MENTION] Just curious. I hope you can answer this honestly.

Please tell us about your OWNERSHIP record of a diesel vehicle. NON of these count: Reading/studying/he-said-experiences/BIL,SIL,MIL/friend-of-a-friend et al.

You 'seem' WAY too interested to have actually owned one.

Yes.... I have. It's just not all that cool.

Also bear in mind that you do not live in Europe .... oh and I read recently that France (?) has/or will ban diesels within Paris (?) city limits (smog).

Instead of turning this into a dick-measuring contest, why don't you present some valid counter-points to the aspects of diesel I brought up:

1) Diesel engines are more energy efficient than gas ones...this means greater mpg, greater driving range, and less CO2 emissions.

2) Diesels generally have greater lifespans and long-term reliability than gas engines due to their construction.

3) Diesels provide greater torque/towing capacity than gas engines (perhaps with the exception of certain turbo gas engines, but mpg comes back into play there).

I acknowledge that diesel engines emit greater amounts of fine particle soot (the most dangerous of which is nitrous oxide and is hazardous to health). The modern engines have made great advances in reducing those emissions and I have confidence that further advancements will be made in the future.

Some of the big car-makers have been able to make their diesel engines California-compliant, which has some of the strictest emissions regulations in the world. Everyone knows that emissions standards will only get tighter as we move forward, which is as great a motivation as any to improve and refine this technology.

Also please note, that France and the rest of the EU have somewhat different emissions standards and regulation from those of the US.

If you believe that turbo-gas engines, gas-electric hybrids are the way of the future, as I certainly do, then you've got acknowledge that clean diesels will have a place there as well.

Diesels currently make up a whopping 2.88% of the US passenger vehicle market. Enough said.

Diesels make up a significant part of the % of the passenger vehicle market in the rest of the world.

 

[1engineer]

Instead of turning this into a dick-measuring contest, why don't you present some valid counter-points to the aspects of diesel I brought up:

1) Diesel engines are more energy efficient than gas ones...this means greater mpg, greater driving range, and less CO2 emissions.

2) Diesels generally have greater lifespans and long-term reliability than gas engines due to their construction.

3) Diesels provide greater torque/towing capacity than gas engines (perhaps with the exception of certain turbo gas engines, but mpg comes back into play there).

I acknowledge that diesel engines emit greater amounts of fine particle soot (the most dangerous of which is nitrous oxide and is hazardous to health). The modern engines have made great advances in reducing those emissions and I have confidence that further advancements will be made in the future.

Some of the big car-makers have been able to make their diesel engines California-compliant, which has some of the strictest emissions regulations in the world. Everyone knows that emissions standards will only get tighter as we move forward, which is as great a motivation as any to improve and refine this technology.

Also please note, that France and the rest of the EU have somewhat different emissions standards and regulation from those of the US.

If you believe that turbo-gas engines, gas-electric hybrids are the way of the future, as I certainly do, then you've got acknowledge that clean diesels will have a place there as well.



Diesels make up a significant part of the % of the passenger vehicle market in the rest of the world.

1. Yes, but we are in the US along with their emissions rules and cost structures and I told you, along with facts, on why the rest of the world buys them.
2. Sure, diesels are more efficient but you said eco friendly. I don't know what you mean unless you type it.
3. No matter the argument, here in the US they will still be a fringe product unless emissions rules change, the fuel cost structure changes or manufacturer's can offer diesels for less up front money. Economically it is a losing proposition for the consumer in the US and in 20 years they will still be on the fringe here. That's why Toyota doesn't not offer them.

 

[philsey]

Instead of turning this into a dick-measuring contest, why don't you present some valid counter-points to the aspects of diesel I brought up:
.......

I think YOU have missed the gist. We, at least I, don't argue the technical merits of the diesel engine per se. IMO we began whether or not TOYOTA will present one to the USA in the forseeable future. Very doubtful.

A parallel subject sprang concerning whether or not the passenger car diesel is very marketable, in general, the USA. Very doubtful. They simply don't come close to cost justifying.

I've owned a diesel automobile, and I won't again. You can stick to all the technical attributes you want, and be, um, not wrong. But until you've owned one for 3-4 years, you are talking out of a book, not the real world. They stink. The fuel stinks. They're noisy. Many parts are hideously expensive. Skilled technical service is spotty at best.


BTW, you did not answer my question.

[MENTION=120402]Dalko43[/MENTION]
Please tell us about your OWNERSHIP record of a diesel vehicle.
QUOTE]

/done/

 

[dekeman]

Ask Mercedes and Volkswagen about mass acceptance of their diesel powerplants in the US

I don't think anyone here needs to debate the merits of turbo diesel - we all know they're superior to hybrids in so many ways — the question is whether Toyota will dip their cautious toes in the market now that they have an engine that could work here (at least this engine looks like it could work in NA).
But the take rates for Mercedes and VW diesels are climbing in the US, where it seems both the rich and frugal are buying them. MB's take rate on diesel started growing when gasoline hit $4/gal in 2010 (a price that will eventually be back). About 40 per cent of GLs are diesel (80 per cent in Canada, wahoo!) and VW's Golf is near 60 per cent, higher with the wagon crowd. The overall percentage may be small - just as it is for hybrids - but diesel is viable in the US and there may well be a business case. Nothing a good marketing campaign to appeal to the posers couldn't fix.

 

[BOVADS]

Are you for real?

In case you haven't heard, Ford, Ram, Jeep, among others, currently sell diesels that meet EPA regulations. Nissan and others are about to introduce diesels as well.

As for diesels being as reliable as gas engines you should do a little research into the subject.

A properly maintained diesel will outlast a gas engine by hundreds of thousands of miles.

Unfortunately for you.. I am for real.
I have been working on Ford diesels for about the last 18years and dodge diesels only for about 3 years. With all the EPA regulations and horse Phukey that they have to put on them it makes for a very unreliable engine ..
Hence the reason I own a gas engine tow rig..

 

[Dalko43]

I think YOU have missed the gist. We, at least I, don't argue the technical merits of the diesel engine per se. IMO we began whether or not TOYOTA will present one to the USA in the forseeable future. Very doubtful.

A parallel subject sprang concerning whether or not the passenger car diesel is very marketable, in general, the USA. Very doubtful. They simply don't come close to cost justifying.

I've owned a diesel automobile, and I won't again. You can stick to all the technical attributes you want, and be, um, not wrong. But until you've owned one for 3-4 years, you are talking out of a book, not the real world. They stink. The fuel stinks. They're noisy. Many parts are hideously expensive. Skilled technical service is spotty at best.


BTW, you did not answer my question.

Your complaints about the noise, stink, sound are entirely subjective...some people find those aspects of diesel ownership annoying, others don't.

As for diesel becoming a fringe element in the US car industry, I think you've been ignoring the reality of what has been happening over the last decade or so. The # of diesel cars being sold/driven (commercially and privately) has definitely gone up because of all the advantages I previously listed.

The Nitrous Oxide emission is the one thing keeping diesels back at the moment...the many car companies seem to be putting a lot effort and $ into resolving that issue.

As for your question, I did answer it...I said I wasn't going to start a dick measuring contest by claiming to have more diesel ownership experience than you. Why? Because this is the freaking internet and no one cares about your "claimed" experience. I have owned/driven diesel vehicles. Enough said....

Unfortunately for you.. I am for real.
I have been working on Ford diesels for about the last 18years and dodge diesels only for about 3 years. With all the EPA regulations and horse Phukey that they have to put on them it makes for a very unreliable engine ..
Hence the reason I own a gas engine tow rig..

Well that's your take on the subject...there are a lot of people who prefer diesels for towing because they want a reliable and efficient engine.