Low caster angles after lift

[luckyluke]

I've recently lifted my truck using a common setup:

1. Front: Bilsteins 5100, 1.75, stock springs
2. Rear: Bilsteins 5100, Daystar 1.5, stock springs

New a bit bigger tires Cooper Discoverer 265/75/16.

Did an alignment and camber and toe-in are within the specs.
The problem is with caster angles because of seized cam bolts, they didn't touch it.
Custer left: 1°51'
Custer right: 1°34'
It looks much too low as the spec is 3°13' (+-45').
Is it anyhow acceptable or I should spend a few days more doing LCAs bushings and bolts?

 

[EdmundGTP]

WTF is a custer angle?

EDIT: On a more serious note... cAster is the angle you're having problems with, and it has almost nothing to do with the lower control arm adjustments. You need aftermarket UPPER control arms that offset the upper pivot point of the spindle to bring your CASTER angle back into a reasonable range.

See the sticky on lifts/tires.

 

[NinjaOne]

I've recently lifted my truck using a common setup:

1. Front: Bilsteins 5100, 1.75, stock springs
2. Rear: Bilsteins 5100, Daystar 1.5, stock springs

New a bit bigger tires Cooper Discoverer 265/75/16.

Did an alignment and camber and toe-in are within the specs.
The problem is with caster angles because of seized cam bolts, they didn't touch it.
Custer left: 1.51
Custer right: 1.34
It looks much too low as the spec is 3.13 (+-0.45).
Is it anyhow acceptable or I should spend a few days more doing LCAs bushings and bolts?

Caster, not custer

At those numbers I would recommend it. Caster impacts how sensitive the steering is. With a number that low typically the truck would feel like it feels light and tends to drift in your lane, especially at freeway speeds.

It is up to you, if your steering still feels tight at highway speeds, you could hold off. Replacing bushings can be a pain, if you are willing to spend a little more you can replace the whole arm for a reasonable price if you do your own labor and that would be easier than taking seized bushings out. If your cams are seized, your bushings likely are too.

WTF is a custer angle?

EDIT: On a more serious note... cAster is the angle you're having problems with, and it has almost nothing to do with the lower control arm adjustments. You need aftermarket UPPER control arms that offset the upper pivot point of the spindle to bring your CASTER angle back into a reasonable range.

See the sticky on lifts/tires.

LCA do have caster adjustment, just not as much as an aftermarket UCA would provide. It is easier to adjust caster via an aftermarket UCA. A small lift (~2") can get acceptable caster with just the LCA

 

[EdmundGTP]

Caster, not custer

At those numbers I would recommend it. Caster impacts how sensitive the steering is. With a number that low typically the truck would feel like it feels light and tends to drift in your lane, especially at freeway speeds.

It is up to you, if your steering still feels tight at highway speeds, you could hold off. Replacing bushings can be a pain, if you are willing to spend a little more you can replace the whole arm for a reasonable price if you do your own labor and that would be easier than taking seized bushings out. If your cams are seized, your bushings likely are too.



LCA do have caster adjustment, just not as much as an aftermarket UCA would provide. It is easier to adjust caster via an aftermarket UCA. A small lift (~2") can get acceptable caster with just the LCA

I guess that is true if you adjust the forward pivot inboard, and the aft pivot outboard. But like you said, range of adjustment by those means is limited, and also may adversely affect camber.

 

[RonJR]

I guess that is true if you adjust the forward pivot inboard, and the aft pivot outboard. But like you said, range of adjustment by those means is limited, and also may adversely affect camber.

That's exactly how caster is supposed to be adjusted (along with camber) on a stock vehicle, according to the FSM. They even give you a cool graph to show you how much to adjust each cam bolt to get from where you are to where you want to go, both in caster and camber.

That being said, you're correct in that the adjustment is limited and often doesn't provide enough range once you lift the truck more than a couple of inches. If you lift the front 2" and the rear 1", caster decreases by about 1.1 degrees.

Of course, if the LCA cams are seized, you have no LCA adjustment at all.

 

[trey99ek]

That's exactly how caster is supposed to be adjusted (along with camber) on a stock vehicle, according to the FSM. They even give you a cool graph to show you how much to adjust each cam bolt to get from where you are to where you want to go, both in caster and camber.

That being said, you're correct in that the adjustment is limited and often doesn't provide enough range once you lift the truck more than a couple of inches. If you lift the front 2" and the rear 1", caster decreases by about 1.1 degrees.

Of course, if the LCA cams are seized, you have no LCA adjustment at all.

I'm in the same boat. I recently did a lift and the Rear adjustment bolt on the driver side LCA is seized. Shop was only able to get the caster to 1 degree on that side so he set both to 1 degree. I was going to get new upper arms but for now it is driving fine. In the future I'm going to replace that lower arm and both uppers.

 

[morphious]

Caster and Camber can only be adjusted via the lower control arm cam bolts, there is no adjustment in stock UCA's. The only adjustable UCA I know of is the SPC Light Racing arms, but most after market UCA's have built in caster of about 3 - 4 degrees to make up for the amount lost due to lifting.

 

[luckyluke]

Thanks all. At this moment I don't see a point in buying new custom UCAs or aftermarket LCAs that are more expensive then my shocks.
I'll try to fix my stock LCAs with new bushings and/or cam bolts if necessary. Just found a repair manual with an instruction what adjustments are to be done to correct caster and camber.

 

[EdmundGTP]

OEM replacement LCA's are not terribly expensive, and in most cases worth the extra cost over the amount of work it takes to remedy a set of seized bushings/bolts.

Depends on what your comfort/skill level/accessibility is when it comes to working with metal cutting, shop press, air tools, and acetylene torches. Odds are you'll need most (if not all) of those things to rebuild the LCA's.

Also recommend replacing the LCA bolts with OEM replacements rather than the Moog grease-able ones. General consensus is that they're a more precise fit and a more robust design.

 

[Marfy]

I had a similar issue after lifting my truck. I took my truck to get aligned and of course everything was seized up. During my lift.planning phase, I was on the fence about buying new UCAS. After doing the lift, and hearing that my cams were all seized up, I decided to replace my lower control arms first. This gave me new bushings, new ball joints and new cam bolts. I posted up my alignment specs recently and with the new LCAs I got good numbers. I feel like that was money well spent as opposed to buying UCAS since I fixed broken parts and accomplished what I wanted: good alignment.

 

[neoguri]

I had a similar issue after lifting my truck. I took my truck to get aligned and of course everything was seized up. During my lift.planning phase, I was on the fence about buying new UCAS. After doing the lift, and hearing that my cams were all seized up, I decided to replace my lower control arms first. This gave me new bushings, new ball joints and new cam bolts. I posted up my alignment specs recently and with the new LCAs I got good numbers. I feel like that was money well spent as opposed to buying UCAS since I fixed broken parts and accomplished what I wanted: good alignment.

What is the alignment result of new lca?

 

[luckyluke]

I just realized I don't have a deep 26mm socket to undo the cams if their not seized.
Do I understand it right? Caster are the fronts. Camber rears.
Fronts front bolts should be loosen first and fronts front cams 26mm are the adjusters not the fronts rear plates 19mm?
For camber rears rear nuts to be loosen first and rears rear plates 26mm are adjusters not rears front bolts 19mm?

 

[Marfy]

What is the alignment result of new lca?

Check my posts

 

[RonJR]

Do I understand it right? Caster are the fronts. Camber rears.

No. Both cams each affect both caster and camber, just in different directions. Turning the cams opposite directions primarily (but not exclusively) affects caster. Turning them in the same direction primarily (but not exclusively) affects camber.

If you get a copy of the alignment instructions from the FSM, it has a complicated looking graph that will allow you to figure out how much to adjust each cam to move both caster and camber the desired amount.

I'm working on a spreadsheet to make this easier. More later...

 

[luckyluke]

No. Both cams each affect both caster and camber, just in different directions. Turning the cams opposite directions primarily (but not exclusively) affects caster. Turning them in the same direction primarily (but not exclusively) affects camber.

If you get a copy of the alignment instructions from the FSM, it has a complicated looking graph that will allow you to figure out how much to adjust each cam to move both caster and camber the desired amount.

I'm working on a spreadsheet to make this easier. More later...

Thanks very much. I think I now understand this diagram and the formula to measure difference to 0 point, except I'm not sure what the standard value (A) means. And what exaclty you turn to adjust, 26mm cam in the fronts front or 19mm plate in the fronts rear, 19mm cam in the rears front or 26mm plate in the rears rear?

 

[RonJR]

Thanks very much. I think I now understand this diagram and the formula to measure difference to 0 point, except I'm not sure what the standard value (A) means. And what exaclty you turn to adjust, 26mm cam in the fronts front or 19mm plate in the fronts rear, 19mm cam in the rears front or 26mm plate in the rears rear?

I don't think it matters; they appear to rotate together (I think they are keyed or splined together). I can't tell for sure since my cam bolts are seized, but when I twist the 26mm as far as I can, the 19mm moves the same amount.

 

[EdmundGTP]

I don't think it matters; they appear to rotate together (I think they are keyed or splined together). I can't tell for sure since my cam bolts are seized, but when I twist the 26mm as far as I can, the 19mm moves the same amount.

This is correct.. The fore and aft cam lobes of each LCA bolt are keyed together via "square" features on the 19mm through bolt. The 26mm hex is used for making the alignment adjustments, and the 19mm nut/bolt combo is what you torque to the spec in the FSM. Because the lobes are keyed to the bolt, you could also make alignment adjustments with the head of the through bolt (not the nut). That might only work if the truck is in the air and the suspension is in free state. I imagine you need an ass-load of torque on those cams (necessitating the large socket and a long dong breaker bar) to make alignment adjustments with full vehicle weight on the suspension (which I believe is how it's typically done).

 

[RonJR]

Thanks for that clarification. I'm hoping I can break the bolts loose - we'll see.

 

[EdmundGTP]

Thanks for that clarification. I'm hoping I can break the bolts loose - we'll see.

Actually I mis-spoke. The cam lobes are keyed together via a sleeve that runs through the LCA bushing in the front. The 19mm bolt runs THROUGH that sleeve and sandwiches the cam lobes together against the frame. I do not recall from when mine were apart, whether or not the thru bolt is "keyed" to the sleeve by some means.

The rear LCA mount point is a little different.

Check this for reference. http://www.ezdries.net/Vidpics/4Run...Front Suspension Lower No. 1 Arm/03600510.pdf

Either way, breaking the bolt lose alone isn't the only issue that folks run into. The cam sleeve being seized to the inner bore of the LCA bushing is what really brings the pain.

 

[RonJR]

Either way, breaking the bolt lose alone isn't the only issue that folks run into. The cam sleeve being seized to the inner bore of the LCA bushing is what really brings the pain.

Yeah, that's what I envisioned. Thanks for the diagram of how it all goes together. That's helpful.