Need help with H4 understanding and driving in snow

[m85476585]

Engine braking vs. service brakes - depends on how the vehicle is equipped. If you don't have ABS, engine braking is usually somewhat less aggressive than normal service brakes, so less likely to break the tires loose. However, a working ABS system will generally do a better job of keeping the wheels turning and thus not slipping than even engine braking. Also, if you drive an automatic, it's a lot faster to release the brake pedal to regain control than to shift the automatic into a less aggressive braking mode if your wheels do start breaking loose. Personally, with ABS I recommend leaving the tranny in drive, use a soft touch on the brake pedal, and let the ABS do its thing if you accidentally brake too hard.

In some cases putting the transmission into neutral is beneficial. That's especially true in a 2wd, because the rear wheels will keep pushing due to the torque converter while the fronts totally lock up and cause you to lose steering. Shifting into neutral will make a huge difference in that situation.

One caveat to ABS is "ice mode" that will sometimes activate in very slippery conditions. I've run into it twice this winter, and it's annoying. If it thinks you are on ice it will stop extremely slowly. If you get back on pavement with traction after the patch of ice it takes a second or two to realize it, meanwhile you are heading towards an intersection way too fast.

It also sometimes doesn't allow enough wheel lockage on snow to let the tires bite in, on some snow conditions. For example, recently I was driving on a dirt road that was plowed but had some snow left on it. There was a narrow bridge with another vehicle coming across, so I started to stop with what I thought was plenty of distance. I guess I braked a bit too hard because ice mode kicked in, and it took my about 3x as long as I expected to stop (and I already knew it was slippery), and I almost didn't stop in time. I didn't get out to look at the road surface, but maybe worst case it was packed snow polished by people driving on it. Even then, I feel like if it had let the wheels lock up a little more the tires could have dug in a bit to stop me faster.

I think Ice Mode has been discussed in another thread somewhere.

Good winter tires will help because they have more traction, and they help keep the ABS from coming on so much.

I have Michelin LTX M/S2, and I've started to realize that they are OK but not great in the winter.

I caused a front wheel skid in my old 2WD car by downshifting to engine brake, and it was terrifying for a moment. Luckily the automatic transmission shifted back up quickly. I don't know if it would have settled down eventually, but I didn't want to wait to find out. The car had no VSC so it would have been easy to spin out.

 

[funken]

One caveat to ABS is "ice mode" that will sometimes activate in very slippery conditions. I've run into it twice this winter, and it's annoying. If it thinks you are on ice it will stop extremely slowly. If you get back on pavement with traction after the patch of ice it takes a second or two to realize it, meanwhile you are heading towards an intersection way too fast.

If I'm on ice or even hard snow, as soon as ABS starts I start pumping. I know people say ABS will stop you faster, but in some situations, it's downright dangerous.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

If I'm on ice or even hard snow, as soon as ABS starts I start pumping. I know people say ABS will stop you faster, but in some situations, it's downright dangerous.

Who ever is telling you that ABS stops you faster has no idea how ABS really works. ABS is not designed to make you stop faster/sooner, it's designed to give you more straightline braking control in situations where the brakes might lock up. What this means is that when ABS is activated, it is preventing your wheels from locking up and it is doing it's best to stop you in a straight line; it just happens that in many situations you stop sooner than you would without ABS. In reality in some situations stopping distance may be increased as a result of ABS.

Also where did you guys read about "Ice Mode?" This is the first I have ever heard of an ABS system knowing what type of terrain you're on (considering that's the biggest flaw in the ABS/VSC/TRAC systems so far...)

 

[Lolrax]

Winter Tires

 

[m85476585]

Who ever is telling you that ABS stops you faster has no idea how ABS really works. ABS is not designed to make you stop faster/sooner, it's designed to give you more straightline braking control in situations where the brakes might lock up. What this means is that when ABS is activated, it is preventing your wheels from locking up and it is doing it's best to stop you in a straight line; it just happens that in many situations you stop sooner than you would without ABS. In reality in some situations stopping distance may be increased as a result of ABS.

Also where did you guys read about "Ice Mode?" This is the first I have ever heard of an ABS system knowing what type of terrain you're on (considering that's the biggest flaw in the ABS/VSC/TRAC systems so far...)

I can't find much about it. Maybe this thread.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/205292-time-brakes-didnt-work-6.html
I thought I remembered reading more people reporting similar behavior on snow and ice. I don't think "ice mode" is an official documented feature or anything, but how the ABS works definitely depends on the surface. On ice, it pulses slowly with a long time between braking pulses (relatively; it feels long when you are hardly slowing down). It sounds like periodic clicking. On surfaces with more grip it pulses fast and sounds almost like a grinding noise.

It senses how slippery the surface is, because that's how ABS works. It seems to remember slippery surfaces too long, so if the grip increases it won't necessarily know.

You might blame bad tires, and they are certainly part of the problem. But the few times I've noticed this behavior, I'm fairly sure I could accelerate significantly faster than the ABS lets me brake.

For example, on the road I described previously:

It also sometimes doesn't allow enough wheel lockage on snow to let the tires bite in, on some snow conditions. For example, recently I was driving on a dirt road that was plowed but had some snow left on it. There was a narrow bridge with another vehicle coming across, so I started to stop with what I thought was plenty of distance. I guess I braked a bit too hard because ice mode kicked in, and it took my about 3x as long as I expected to stop (and I already knew it was slippery), and I almost didn't stop in time. I didn't get out to look at the road surface, but maybe worst case it was packed snow polished by people driving on it. Even then, I feel like if it had let the wheels lock up a little more the tires could have dug in a bit to stop me faster.

I tested starting and stopping several times. I could accelerate as I would expect for a snowy road without activating traction control, but stopping took much longer than I would expect. Much longer than it would take on similarly snowy roads.

 

[radlynx]

if you don't see any light in the dashboard, then it's off. it will be easy to remember by seeing this.
dashboard light is OFF = center differential is OFF. (must be used at all time for safety reason)
dashboard light is ON = center differential is ON. (must be used only when stuck)

My 4Runner looks just like yours �� So does it automatically stay on unless you physically switch it off? How do I know if mine is on/off? Sorry to sound so stupid .. I honestly never had a truck with all these choices!

 

[offshorebear]

Who ever is telling you that ABS stops you faster has no idea how ABS really works. ABS is not designed to make you stop faster/sooner, it's designed to give you more straightline braking control in situations where the brakes might lock up. What this means is that when ABS is activated, it is preventing your wheels from locking up and it is doing it's best to stop you in a straight line; it just happens that in many situations you stop sooner than you would without ABS. In reality in some situations stopping distance may be increased as a result of ABS.

Also where did you guys read about "Ice Mode?" This is the first I have ever heard of an ABS system knowing what type of terrain you're on (considering that's the biggest flaw in the ABS/VSC/TRAC systems so far...)

On hard surfaces, ABS will always stop faster than locking up the breaks. On loose surfaces, locking up may be faster because you can build up a bump in front of the wheel. Kinetic vs static friction.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

On hard surfaces, ABS will always stop faster than locking up the breaks. On loose surfaces, locking up may be faster because you can build up a bump in front of the wheel. Kinetic vs static friction.

Depends on your definitions of "Hard" and "Loose" surfaces, I have seen various ABS systems react differently in wet conditions. They all provide better straight line stopping, but varying degrees of increase in stopping distance as a result. My old S-10 Blazer would easily go 3 times it's normal stopping distance when ABS kicked in on even mildly moist road (compared to times ABS did not kick in on the same mildly moist road), the 4Runner is no where near as bad, but before the ATs when on it would also have a longer than normal stopping distance when ABS pulsed vs. the same surface when ABS did not. Both vehicles were functioning as designed and straight-line stopping was spot on when ABS activated, thus ABS functioned as designed; the side-effect being that ABS required slightly longer to bring the vehicle to a complete stop in a controlled manner.

As I said before, ABS is mainly for providing straight-line stopping ability; stopping distance CAN be shorter or it can be longer. It's a common myth/misunderstanding that ABS automatically decreases stopping distance; it's not a 1:1 correlation as much as it's more of a "in most cases and most times" it does result in shorter stopping distances.

 

[fishboat]

Well I found out my making a few calls, the tires were put on in 2009, they are all season, 60,000 mile tires. The car had around 38,000 and now it has close to 100,000 so I bet it was more than likely the tires!

You're running 60,000 mile tires with a 100,000 miles on them?? It doesn't matter what tech you have turned on or off..if your tires are that shot you're at risk to yourself & others on anything other than dry pavement. Please do the rest of us a favor and get some new tires.

This is an interesting thread for me as I'm looking for a 4runner now. I've never owned a vehicle with 4WD, AWD, and until this last 10 years, even one with ABS or traction control. I've been driving in snow/ice for 45 years and v-e-r-y very seldom have any issues. When the snow does come down bad I turn the traction control off as I know how the car behaves when it slips (rear wheel drive) and how to get it back under control and on track..I need power to do this..and good tires. The 'tech' just gets in the way.

When I find my 4R (V8 4WD) I'm sure I'll have some things to learn..though I'll probably start out with "less is more" and see how it goes.

 

[vjack]

One thing that hasn't really been mentioned in this thread is that when people talk about "driving in snow" there are really two very different situations.

One is what I would call "winter conditions", which would be driving on paved roads with ice, packed snow, or a few inches of loose snow/slush. This is the kind of driving that you regularly have to do in the winter if you live in a cold climate:

These roads can be incredibly slippery and the primary problem is maintaining traction so that you can safely brake and steer.

Hands down, the best piece of equipment for slippery winter roads is a good set of *winter* tires. More important than 4x4, locking diff, etc. Winter tires are made of a softer rubber so they stay grippy at cold temperatures, and the tread pattern is designed for ice and snow. Big fat wide A/T tires are not that good in conditions like this. (In fact some tire manufacturer recommend *narrower* tires for winter conditions to increase the contact pressure and let you cut through snow better to maintain contact with the road.)

As [MENTION=113611]m85476585[/MENTION] said above, a locked diff can actually hurt you in these situations because they force some of the wheels to slip when turning. I would only lock a center (or rear) diff if you were truly stuck.


The other type of snow driving is off-road hooning:

These situations are more like sand/mud where you want big fat tires to float on top and beefy tread to grab the material. Since the tires *will* be spinning, this is where you want to engage 4-low and lock all your diffs.

 

[20074runnerlimited]

I will say and agree with op. We have a 2007 limited which is my wife's and when I drive in the snow and ice is really terrible compared to other 4x4 trucks I have driven and owned.

Almost like it wants you to spin out. Over the years I have never had a problem in the snow and ice. Usually drive in 2wd and enjoy the snow. Like to power slide brake and "drift". Doing any of this in the Toyota is a big no no and honestly doesn't handle like any other truck or car. Maybe too much computer aid and fights the proper way to recover. Even past audis are not like the 4Runner. Sure it just takes more practice but who knows. Not the biggest fan of handling characteristics in slippery roads.

Anyone else notice this?

 

[luvmylittleboy2003]

I will say and agree with op. We have a 2007 limited which is my wife's and when I drive in the snow and ice is really terrible compared to other 4x4 trucks I have driven and owned.

Almost like it wants you to spin out. Over the years I have never had a problem in the snow and ice. Usually drive in 2wd and enjoy the snow. Like to power slide brake and "drift". Doing any of this in the Toyota is a big no no and honestly doesn't handle like any other truck or car. Maybe too much computer aid and fights the proper way to recover. Even past audis are not like the 4Runner. Sure it just takes more practice but who knows. Not the biggest fan of handling characteristics in slippery roads.

Anyone else notice this?

I was just telling my parents this last night! I've went over this 1000 times in my head .. I've driven a lot in snow (use to live in Colorado) and never had a issue. What the truck did, just doesn't make sense. I feel like like my car tried to over correct the situation causing it to become worse and my tail end to spin around. I went yesterday and had my tires looked at and the guy performed the test and said they were just starting to touch yellow (out of the green). I was going to call the dealership today and run this by them. I'm just thankful nothing serious happens. If another vehicle would've been coming, it could've been a bad outcome!

 

[luvmylittleboy2003]

You're running 60,000 mile tires with a 100,000 miles on them?? It doesn't matter what tech you have turned on or off..if your tires are that shot you're at risk to yourself & others on anything other than dry pavement. Please do the rest of us a favor and get some new tires.

This is an interesting thread for me as I'm looking for a 4runner now. I've never owned a vehicle with 4WD, AWD, and until this last 10 years, even one with ABS or traction control. I've been driving in snow/ice for 45 years and v-e-r-y very seldom have any issues. When the snow does come down bad I turn the traction control off as I know how the car behaves when it slips (rear wheel drive) and how to get it back under control and on track..I need power to do this..and good tires. The 'tech' just gets in the way.

When I find my 4R (V8 4WD) I'm sure I'll have some things to learn..though I'll probably start out with "less is more" and see how it goes.

I'm sorry, I should've clarified better. My car has 100,000 miles but my tires (purchased in 2009) is just now hitting the 60,000 mark. I use to work close and never put that many miles on my car, until I switched jobs and now drive a hr each way. I stopped yesterday and had them checked it's right on the green/yellow line.

 

[ben550]

I will say and agree with op. We have a 2007 limited which is my wife's and when I drive in the snow and ice is really terrible compared to other 4x4 trucks I have driven and owned.

Almost like it wants you to spin out. Over the years I have never had a problem in the snow and ice. Usually drive in 2wd and enjoy the snow. Like to power slide brake and "drift". Doing any of this in the Toyota is a big no no and honestly doesn't handle like any other truck or car. Maybe too much computer aid and fights the proper way to recover. Even past audis are not like the 4Runner. Sure it just takes more practice but who knows. Not the biggest fan of handling characteristics in slippery roads.

Anyone else notice this?

Ive thought this as well. I have driven several 4x4 trucks and SUVs and have found the 4runner to be the most finicky. I agree about the technology getting in the way at times. I would prefer controls being there to turn the tech on rather than turn it off... I have experienced several 4Hi spin outs when accelerating from a stop at an intersection... VSC kicks on and you just hear the clicking... I know that will happen when you are mashing the pedal but it should not happen under normal conditions... Tires are good. My experience with a Silverado 4x4 and Jeep Cherokee 4x4 have been very different. Minimal VSC engagement. They just go. 4x4 Tacoma was the same. It just went... Who knows maybe the 5th gens are better at that than the 3rd and 4th gen 4runners.

 

[fishboat]

I'm sorry, I should've clarified better. My car has 100,000 miles but my tires (purchased in 2009) is just now hitting the 60,000 mark. I use to work close and never put that many miles on my car, until I switched jobs and now drive a hr each way. I stopped yesterday and had them checked it's right on the green/yellow line.

Ahh..makes more sense.

Tire mile ratings, in my experience, are a bit optimistic. Once you actually hit the rated miles..they're gone..and have been for a while (with respect to good handling). Also..tires have an expiration date in terms of time, regardless of whether they've been driven...and that's usually about 5 years. Add on top of both the above, some tires, even new, are good in snow and others are amazingly useless. Add all this up...I think you need new tires.

An example..my current car (big boat, RWD) & my first experience in heavy snow with it ..I ran the OEM Michelins, with a 60-65K rating, up to 55K miles. I got caught in a heavy snow storm about 25 miles from home..it blew in off Lake Michigan and just started dumping snow. There was a good 5-6 inches of wet snow on the roads by the time I headed for home. It took me nearly two hours to get home as I couldn't get the tires to grab...traction control on or off..I could get to up to about 10-15mph and that was about it. I was afraid people behind me were going to run up along side and strangle me (I don't blame them). Shortly thereafter I started researching tires and picked up a set of Goodyear ComfortTreds. 10,000% difference. With those tires it's like the snow isn't there. I'm 10K into my second set of them. I accelerate and they grab..I go, no hesitation, no sliding... I still turn off the traction control as it's more trouble than it worth, but good tires matter..a lot.

I don't doubt there's some configuration of drive-tech's that make 4Rs handle better, but it'll start with good tires...and I can't imagine drive setups can compensate for worn out tires(at least predictably..the world is full of non-linearities). ..some thoughts from an older fart that's driven in snow my whole life.

 

[20074runnerlimited]

In snow and ice as soon as I get in the 4Runner I turn off the traction control. Hate it on this truck. I know all guys think they are the best drivers just like great at sex but I am actually pretty good driver and love to play in the snow.

Think the 4Runner takes practice and try turning off the traction. No clicking and actually seems to handle better in snow.

 

[Powder_Hound]

This thread is cracking me up!!!!! I've resisted the urge to post, but I can't resist anymore.

If you want to play in the snow, turn off the traction contol and have some fun...but stay away from me on the road.

If your looking to drive safely on transit roads (read highways, paved roads, and roads that we all use to get from point A to point B) that are covered in snow and ice get some good tires and leave everything else as is!!! I've had great success with 1st gen, 2nd gen, and 4th gen 4runners using BFG AT's and Hankook Dynapro ATM's. If an AT tire is 5 years old REPLACE it if you want traction in snow as the oil within the tires is gone and the tires (regardless of brand) are HARD!!!!!! (Read durometer is not soft enough to get traction on snow/ice or dry cold roads).

4WDH, no locked front, rear, or center diff with all traction devices turned on is the way to go. Oh...don't forget to leave twice the distance between you and the guy in front of you in all snowy conditions. We have 4wd, but it only helps to accelerate and does absolutely nothing to slow you down.

I've been driving T4R's in Colo winters for almost 20 years with very few issues (that weren't my fault)!

Long rant short!!! Get some good snow or AT tires, slow the f#!$ down, and let your runner do the rest if you want to drive safely in snowy or icy conditions.

Nuff said...

 

[RonJR]

This thread is cracking me up!!!!! I've resisted the urge to post, but I can't resist anymore.

If you want to play in the snow, turn off the traction contol and have some fun...but stay away from me on the road.

If your looking to drive safely on transit roads (read highways, paved roads, and roads that we all use to get from point A to point B) that are covered in snow and ice get some good tires and leave everything else as is!!! I've had great success with 1st gen, 2nd gen, and 4th gen 4runners using BFG AT's and Hankook Dynapro ATM's. If an AT tire is 5 years old REPLACE it if you want traction in snow as the oil within the tires is gone and the tires (regardless of brand) are HARD!!!!!! (Read durometer is not soft enough to get traction on snow/ice or dry cold roads).

4WDH, no locked front, rear, or center diff with all traction devices turned on is the way to go. Oh...don't forget to leave twice the distance between you and the guy in front of you in all snowy conditions. We have 4wd, but it only helps to accelerate and does absolutely nothing to slow you down.

I've been driving T4R's in Colo winters for almost 20 years with very few issues (that weren't my fault)!

Long rant short!!! Get some good snow or AT tires, slow the f#!$ down, and let your runner do the rest if you want to drive safely in snowy or icy conditions.

Nuff said...

What he said!

 

[20074runnerlimited]

Well not to start a fight but either Ron and powder have never driven another 4x4 or have no idea of the point of my posting.

Of course drive slower and of course 4wd doesn't stop you faster but the 4 runner has different handling than other trucks in the snow and ice. It defiantly tries to throw the rear forward with all the clicking.

Not a great thing.

I turn it off because every time the truck starts to do this with traction control on just clicks and clicks to a mess. When it is off I am fine.

I suggest you two drive another truck and try to slide etc and feel the difference.

 

[radlynx]

I'm telling you now, don't turn off the traction control. it will save your life in the future. you never know when it will happen but a split second is something you can't track all the time.

here's the saying that I always follow. it's better to have it when you need it than not having it when you need it. remember, these traction control systems must have been tested by engineers who built it.

Well not to start a fight but either Ron and powder have never driven another 4x4 or have no idea of the point of my posting.

Of course drive slower and of course 4wd doesn't stop you faster but the 4 runner has different handling than other trucks in the snow and ice. It defiantly tries to throw the rear forward with all the clicking.

Not a great thing.

I turn it off because every time the truck starts to do this with traction control on just clicks and clicks to a mess. When it is off I am fine.

I suggest you two drive another truck and try to slide etc and feel the difference.