Need help with H4 understanding and driving in snow

[m85476585]

They definitely tested it. Here's a paper from Toyota.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv18/cd/files/18ESV-000541.pdf

1. It is estimated that the accident rate of the vehicles with VSC showed approximately a 35% reduction for single car accidents, a 30% reduction for head-on collisions with other automobiles, and approximately 50% and 40% reductions for accidents where severe or moderate damage occurred, compared to that of the vehicles
without VSC.
2. It is estimated that the casualty rate of vehicles with VSC showed approximately a 35%
reduction for both single car accidents and headon collisions with other automobiles.

It's also been independently studied.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3217442/

Overall, and 11.2% (95% CI: 2.4%, 21.1%) reduction in multi-vehicle frontal crash involvement was identified for VSC-equipped vehicles. A 52.6% (95% CI: 42.5%, 62.7%) reduction in single-vehicle crash rates was found.

And my insurance company charges slightly less for vehicles with VSC from what I've noticed.

 

[RonJR]

Well not to start a fight but either Ron and powder have never driven another 4x4 or have no idea of the point of my posting.

Of course drive slower and of course 4wd doesn't stop you faster but the 4 runner has different handling than other trucks in the snow and ice. It defiantly tries to throw the rear forward with all the clicking.

Not a great thing.

I turn it off because every time the truck starts to do this with traction control on just clicks and clicks to a mess. When it is off I am fine.

I suggest you two drive another truck and try to slide etc and feel the difference.

I've been driving on snow/ice in Missouri and Colorado, skiing every winter, black ice in the midwest, for the last 50 years, with no accidents either. Rear wheel drive, front wheel drive, part-time 4wd, full-time 4wd, AWD, traction control, no traction control, lockers, school buses, grain trucks, you name it. I think I know what I'm talking about.

I got my '06 the first of December. It's been a snowy December here in northern Colorado, so I got some good opportunities to test it out. I had read about the VSC cutting power, so I monitored it carefully on my first day on slick roads. The V8 has a lot of low-end torque, and I certainly noticed that if I got exuberant with the accelerator the VSC would kick in and slap my hands. Once I got calibrated, I haven't noticed it since, and I'm glad to have it as a back-up if something catches me by surprise.

My take is that, if you are activating the VSC frequently, you need to lighten up on the skinny pedal and develop better driving skills. Spinning out leaving your driveway and drifting around corners is fun - I've done it myself - but it's not particularly safe driving when there is other traffic around.

 

[20074runnerlimited]

I understand your point but still not a fan of the vsc. I am sure it is good but for me it tries to over compensate and does more damage. Am I turning it off all the time? No. Will I still turn it off in deep snow yes.

 

[radlynx]

great to know! you have all the info. so be safe no matter what... your life is important. your family loves you. ::bump2:

I understand your point but still not a fan of the vsc. I am sure it is good but for me it tries to over compensate and does more damage. Am I turning it off all the time? No. Will I still turn it off in deep snow yes.

 

[CAN-03runner]

You might want to do a zero point calibration and see if it gets better

 

[BlackWorksInc]

They definitely tested it. Here's a paper from Toyota.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv18/cd/files/18ESV-000541.pdf


It's also been independently studied.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3217442/


And my insurance company charges slightly less for vehicles with VSC from what I've noticed.

I'd like to see the data related to Ice & Snow VSC effectiveness. I believe it reduces accidents, but I've seen many VSC and Trac systems in various makes and models have issue with that particular terrine. Some even causing or encouraging the vehicle to lose control when the VSC or Trac kick in.

 

[20074runnerlimited]

What and how do you do the zero point calibration? 2007 limited v8

 

[Eurotrsh]

I will say and agree with op. We have a 2007 limited which is my wife's and when I drive in the snow and ice is really terrible compared to other 4x4 trucks I have driven and owned.

Almost like it wants you to spin out. Over the years I have never had a problem in the snow and ice. Usually drive in 2wd and enjoy the snow. Like to power slide brake and "drift". Doing any of this in the Toyota is a big no no and honestly doesn't handle like any other truck or car. Maybe too much computer aid and fights the proper way to recover. Even past audis are not like the 4Runner. Sure it just takes more practice but who knows. Not the biggest fan of handling characteristics in slippery roads.

Anyone else notice this?

I always turn everything off in the 4runner and basically everything I drive. I have a dedicated set of snows for the winter, however my Duratracs do well.


I rarely use 4wd only when I am really moving down a snow covered highway at like 60mph or so. The rest of the time it is 2wd for me, but I also thought my e46 3 series was the best snow vehicle I ever owned, 50/50 balance was great in the snow, so much control.

 

[luvmylittleboy2003]

You might want to do a zero point calibration and see if it gets better

I guess this is something the dealership would take care of???

 

[m85476585]

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...ibration site:toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs

It doesn't seem like it would be necessary unless you have warning lights on. But maybe it would help.

 

[JEL]

I have found my 4th gen to be great in snow, typically I leave it in 4hi unlocked and it works perfectly on snow-covered mountain roads. When I had it up past the running boards in SLOP up in the Pacific Northworst I did find it was having a little more trouble with the center diff unlocked and operating how I usually would on a snowy road, but with the center diff locked it did great and just in an experiment I continued to drive that way and it performed exactly as one would expect from a "true" 4wd rig.

Overall I think it's a great system and I wouldn't buy anything but a 5th gen limited to keep the center diff an option, but I can also see how the VSC and all that junk can get in the way. Seems to work so-so in deep and soft sand as well, another place you'd probably want the center diff locked so you can just punch it to power out of stuff.


...now if I could just get around to installing that front diff damper from the GX Lexus so I don't have the annoying harmonic vibration/hum at 65-70mph when in 4hi unlocked we'd be set....:yell:

 

[wadle5]

Agreed I don't know what these people are claiming of the vehicle being horrible in the snow. It is most likely the tires. Up until just last week my Runner was not the best in inclement storms and weather, but that was because I was due for tires. I have since got new tires and I haven't tripped trac control, or lost traction once.

In regards for comparison I have driven other 4wd/Awd vehicles. Obviously my Subaru is going to be a beast, but the 4runner is extremely capable. I agree with what others have said to, new vehicles take some getting used to learn how they react and drive, but it is capable.

Past vehicles for justification are the following but not limited to:
1998 Suzuki sidekick
1998 GMC Denali(former Union Pacific Railroad truck-lifted and modified)
1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee
1992 Jeep Cherokee
2006 GMC Sonoma
2010 Honda Element
2006 Ford F250 FX4 with the V10
2010 GMC conversion van AWD
2005 Subaru Impreza WRX STi stage 2
2002 Subaru outback(manual)(current)
2014 Subaru Forester(wifes current)

Hell I even drove an 06 Impala(FWD) in midwestern winters as well as a 2008 Pontiac Vibe GT(FWD) one regular tires also in the snow
The vehicle is not the problem. . .it is the tires and/or the driver


edit: I understand I may come off as a car whore

 

[CAN-03runner]

I guess this is something the dealership would take care of???

They can, but I find the dealer when I asked only do stuff if a dashboard code tells them do it, or is part of a repair procedure etc... I had mine refuse to do it, even if I paid the hourly rate. So I found instruction on how to do it with a special service tool....like a paper clip..for office folks like myself. Lol.

After a zero point I found vsc kicking in less.

Also, vsc , trac, 4x4, atrac, the center torsen, can only do their thing in snow if you are on the ground gas. So if you take a left turn after a red light for example, a little too fast for vsc to be activated, and it beeps, and as your natural reaction let go the gas the truck will just keep sliding away since there is no more power able to go to any wheel to try and pull you in the direction your steering wheel is pointing. So you need to maybe reduce gas but still give some to allow some power to be directed to the wheels that will straighten you out in the direction of the steering wheel. I've practiced this, it works pretty good, and it only feels like you're going no where when the power cuts out . But you need to keep on the gas a little. It works decent in my opinion. And anytime I've had vsc kick in I was turning too fast. And only time I got sideways into a sidewalk was when I was "practicing" like an idiot.

The best vsc type I've had the chance to experience is on bmw dsc. With it active it's very hard to lose it. But completely off, and I can get 180 in the other lane in no time. And yes in the 70s non of the big steel whiplash causing cars had these systems, the we're no drinking and driving laws, seat belts were unheard of, and you and 6 of your cousins shared the trunk of a station wagon on road trips.

 

[luvmylittleboy2003]

They can, but I find the dealer when I asked only do stuff if a dashboard code tells them do it, or is part of a repair procedure etc... I had mine refuse to do it, even if I paid the hourly rate. So I found instruction on how to do it with a special service tool....like a paper clip..for office folks like myself. Lol.

After a zero point I found vsc kicking in less.

Also, vsc , trac, 4x4, atrac, the center torsen, can only do their thing in snow if you are on the ground gas. So if you take a left turn after a red light for example, a little too fast for vsc to be activated, and it beeps, and as your natural reaction let go the gas the truck will just keep sliding away since there is no more power able to go to any wheel to try and pull you in the direction your steering wheel is pointing. So you need to maybe reduce gas but still give some to allow some power to be directed to the wheels that will straighten you out in the direction of the steering wheel. I've practiced this, it works pretty good, and it only feels like you're going no where when the power cuts out . But you need to keep on the gas a little. It works decent in my opinion. And anytime I've had vsc kick in I was turning too fast. And only time I got sideways into a sidewalk was when I was "practicing" like an idiot.

The best vsc type I've had the chance to experience is on bmw dsc. With it active it's very hard to lose it. But completely off, and I can get 180 in the other lane in no time. And yes in the 70s non of the big steel whiplash causing cars had these systems, the we're no drinking and driving laws, seat belts were unheard of, and you and 6 of your cousins shared the trunk of a station wagon on road trips.

Thanks so much! One thing that caught my attention is you mentioned a beep, when my truck started spinning out sideways down the road, it never beeped, should it have???

Funny you mention having a bmw, I've seriously been thinking of trading my truck in for either a 3 series car or a x3.

 

[Roadtripr]

I didn't read the whole thread so excuse if it has been answered

It should beeped and you should have heard the systems go on.
Try find a safe place to test out 4H with center diff unlocked. If nothing comes on when you begin to skid then have it looked at.

Also don't touch the brakes when you go sideways but steer into the slide.
Check how bad your tires are.

 

[jdc62]

Thanks so much! One thing that caught my attention is you mentioned a beep, when my truck started spinning out sideways down the road, it never beeped, should it have???

Funny you mention having a bmw, I've seriously been thinking of trading my truck in for either a 3 series car or a x3.

Based on my experience, the VSC beep only occurs when the 4runner has started to noticeably slip to one side. The system starts correcting before the beep occurs and you won't hear anything other than the servos if the VSC is keeping things under control. Mine has only sounded a couple of times and that was when I was in a snow covered parking lot trying get a feel for the VSC and other system. From my parking lot "experiments" all of the systems work well, at least for on road, bad weather conditions.

Based on your earlier comment, I would suggest getting new tires. Traction and vehicle stability depends heavily on the quality of your tires. Good systems can't overcome poor tires. I have Michelin LTX M/S2's. It's a good all around tire that does everything well but isn't great in any particular area except for wear. I would recommend it for on road use, but there are plenty of good tires available that I'm sure others on this forum could recommend.

Good luck!

 

[sharonk]

I just bought a 2019 4Runner. In Portland Oregon where I live, we have snow about one week a year. I drove in snow and on ice in Utah for 25 years but here it is different because they don't salt the roads and my main problem is getting off the hill where I live - it is not even plowed.
My plan for getting out of my driveway is 4H until I can go straight, then 4L. Is this a bad idea? When should I switch to 4L? The ABS discussion confuses me because if it is "on" (unlocked) then I don't have to worry about changing it, right?
I am a newbie and would appreciate help.

 

[MSRP.]

I just bought a 2019 4Runner. In Portland Oregon where I live, we have snow about one week a year. I drove in snow and on ice in Utah for 25 years but here it is different because they don't salt the roads and my main problem is getting off the hill where I live - it is not even plowed.
My plan for getting out of my driveway is 4H until I can go straight, then 4L. Is this a bad idea? When should I switch to 4L? The ABS discussion confuses me because if it is "on" (unlocked) then I don't have to worry about changing it, right?
I am a newbie and would appreciate help.

Damn that's tough.
Are you the only one driving this uphill? or is it a public road with others driving it? I'm not sure which will be better for the 7 days you drive on that snow that will turn to ice..

4H will allow you to build more speed up on your run leading up to the incline. But increased speeds combined with wheel spin will also create ice and once created, lead to polishing the ice more.

4L will limit your speed, but also generate wheelspin more easily due to higher torque.

If it is a private road, you're gonna want to vary your line each day to limit the ice buildup as you fly up the hill with speed.. if a public road, drive outside the tire track if you don't make it up via the polished ice in the track.

 

[Bumbo]

What and how do you do the zero point calibration? 2007 limited v8

Having messed with this plenty of times in the past… it appears doing the zero point cal again isn’t going to do much of anything if it was ok to begin with. The problem is the VSC thresholds are pre-programmed for a stock vehicle. Once you lift it, change the track width, it throws the entire system off.

Unless you can actually change the thresholds themselves, it’s probably not going to help. Even if you could, I don’t think most of us would have the skill to do it right. If it can be done, it’s probably done using a SST like Techstream.

Doing the zero point yourself just tells the system what the trucks perceived 0 degree flat surface is.

All you are doing is shorting a couple OBDII pins to either dump or calibrate it on a flat surface. I made a little adapter to help with this task.

 

[joshuay04]

How is driving in the snow with this generation?