Need help

[firefoxed]

So I bought a 2005 V6 4runner just before Christmas and just after I left the dealer with the car the dashboard check engine light came on along with the vsc light. I took it to a local mechanic and he said the codes P0606 and P0157 were for the ecm and o2 sensor but it would need a proper diagnosis from Toyota. So I took it to Toyota and they also said it was a bad ecm. After talking with the dealer I bought it from he offered to supply me with an ecm from a salvage yard but I must pay to get it fitted. On the Toyota owners website it shows that he had already replaced it a couple of weeks before I purchased the vehicle.

I phoned the Toyota dealer that did the programming and they said they were only asked to program an ecm and they had no history of where it was purchased. So faced with a 2000 bill from my local Toyota I took the dealer up on his offer of a replacement ecu and paid Toyota 180 to fit and program it. After it was done and I collected it the check engine light came back on and I went back to Toyota and they kept the truck a few days and came back with a diagnosis saying it needed an o2 sensor. I had the o2 sensor replaced by a local mechanic because Toyota wanted too much.

O2 sensor was done and not long later the check engine light came back on, back to the local mechanic and again he said ecm. I reset the codes and drove it and got codes for the maf sensor, I bought some sensor cleaner and a new filter but the check engine light came back on. Hoping it was just the ecm learning I reset them again and drove it around for about an hour with no error codes. On the way back home the check engine light came on again with codes for the ecm the o2 sensor and the maf sensor, all three that are supposedly fixed or replaced.

I went back to Toyota but at this point they have nothing to offer other than the suggestion of a new ecm, even though they acknowledge it's unlikely to get 2 bad ones from the salvage yard. But they say when everything after the ecm is good but the ecm says they are bad then it must be the ecm that's at fault. I asked what happens if I pay 2k to get a new one and I still get codes and they said it would be for them to sort it out somehow.

So far the truck has cost me just under 6k to purchase it and not far off 700 trying to sort error codes out but I am no closer to getting it sorted. Really I am in a worse position because Toyota have no solution for me nor has my local mechanic. I am not convinced that putting a third ecm in it will give different results.

Any advice greatly appreciated, at this point I just feel like putting in on Craigslist as a vehicle with problems and just take as much as I can get for it. Totally gutted that my first 4runner experience is a bad one.

 

[Ida4runner]

I would do the O2 sensor trick using spark plug/O2 extender on the two rear O2 sensors and see if that works.
I had the same issue with my wife's runner and was about to get rid of it because I coudn't figure it out, the extenders got the light off and it hasn't come back on in 2yrs.

https://www.amazon.com/O2-Sensor-Sp...56&sr=1-2&keywords=universal+02+sensor+spacer

YouTube

 

[firefoxed]

I would do the O2 sensor trick using spark plug/O2 extender on the two rear O2 sensors and see if that works.
I had the same issue with my wife's runner and was about to get rid of it because I coudn't figure it out, the extenders got the light off and it hasn't come back on in 2yrs.

https://www.amazon.com/O2-Sensor-Sp...56&sr=1-2&keywords=universal+02+sensor+spacer

YouTube

Thank you for the reply and suggestion.

Assuming the fault is the o2 sensor then this might stop the light coming on and fool the computer. I have already had a brand new bank 2 sensor 2 fitted so it's unlikely to be an o2 fault. I can't be that unlucky to get two bad ecm's and a bad brand new o2 sensor.

Reading around the web tonight I am thinking possibly a bad ground could cause codes to pop up.

 

[Ida4runner]

Thank you for the reply and suggestion.

Assuming the fault is the o2 sensor then this might stop the light coming on and fool the computer. I have already had a brand new bank 2 sensor 2 fitted so it's unlikely to be an o2 fault. I can't be that unlucky to get two bad ecm's and a bad brand new o2 sensor.

Reading around the web tonight I am thinking possibly a bad ground could cause codes to pop up.

oh,then that trick probably won't do it, hows your battery and like you said maybe a bad ground.

 

[firefoxed]

oh,then that trick probably won't do it, hows your battery and like you said maybe a bad ground.

Car starts okay but I only have it about 4 weeks, it's spent most of the time at the local mechanic and Toyota. Battery seems alright but I have no history on it at all, will get it checked tomorrow.

Not too sure if this information will help anyone give advice but I thought it was interesting that the voltages are different between the bank 1 sensor and the bank 2 sensor.

 

[blackoutt]

Shorted wiring....somewhere. Will be a needle in a haystack to find, plenty dealers are capable but don't sign up for that sort of thing because it will take many hours of labor and while they love getting paid, there's no way to guess how long and therefore your estimate will most likely be wrong. They prefer the 606 = ECM approach. Does this 4runner have any flood history or evidence? I've also seen water cause a temporary short and 606 fault code but that went away once dried out.

 

[firefoxed]

Shorted wiring....somewhere. Will be a needle in a haystack to find, plenty dealers are capable but don't sign up for that sort of thing because it will take many hours of labor and while they love getting paid, there's no way to guess how long and therefore your estimate will most likely be wrong. They prefer the 606 = ECM approach. Does this 4runner have any flood history or evidence? I've also seen water cause a temporary short and 606 fault code but that went away once dried out.

No flood history and nothing to point in that direction, the truck has hardly any rust worth mentioning. My father in law thought the ground cables on the battery were hot so I guess that's the place to start looking.

Might try find a small auto electrician who might take the work on.

 

[firefoxed]

Just an update on my truck.

It has spent about 10 days with the mechanic that I found locally, they have tested the vehicle every which way and found no electrical faults. The ecu is reporting correctly and no bad ground points.

So today they have decided that the issue lies with the downstream cat. Apparently this is new and would have been fitted before I purchased the truck but it has issues. The Toyota main dealer had told me it was not an original cat but never expanded on it. There is an unused o2 sensor welded into the cat, I have been told there is a bung that does the same job and it's just poor work to weld an o2 sensor in to close the hole. The wire from this sensor just hangs there and serves no purpose.

My mechanic has said to further complicate the issue, this cat is an upstream cat but fitted in the downstream position. His fear at this stage is that the upstream cat has been hollowed out and the shell left behind to give the impression that it works and then a second upstream cat fitted after the bank 2 sensor 2 o2 sensor. This cat is not suitable for a 4runner in either position, what an absolute mess.

I have agreed to them cutting off and replacing the incorrect cat but can only hope the upstream cat has not been hollowed out or I will need replace that also. This truck has been in two Toyota main dealers and another independent mechanic and none advised that it was an incorrect cat or not suitable for the job, all they said it was not a Toyota one.

Just watching the cash I had for mods disappear.

Sucks..... :redbrick:

 

[firefoxed]

At this point I guess I am in real trouble and I am running out of options.

The upstream cat was not hollowed out and appears to be good so the downstream cat was replaced on bank 2 but the problem still persists. At tick over the truck reports everything being good but once you put your foot on the accelerator the check engine and other lights come on and apparently it stops reporting correctly.

The mechanic is going to put back in the first replacement ecu to see if the truck repeats the problem but if it is the same he has nowhere to go with it.

I am at my wits end and see no way out other than to sell the truck and declare the outstanding issues to any potential buyer and hopefully get a little back to put towards another one. One of the mechanics has said he can find no reason or faults and suggests driving it as is. My problem is how do I trust the truck on any journey and not expect it break down, it's unnerving driving with a bunch of warning lights on the dash.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

[TenTwelve]

I suggest having another Toyota dealership diagnose it. I'd even explain the whole situation to them and they may waive the diag fee.

 

[ElZilcho]

There's a lot going on here; namely the fact that so many hands have touched the truck it's hard to say where the original problem starts and the "fixes" end.

First, as [MENTION=149315]Ida4runner[/MENTION] alluded to earlier, take the truck to an auto parts store that does free battery/alternator testing and have them check it out. Borderline batteries/alternators can deliver the wrong voltage (high or low) and cause all sorts of seemingly unrelated electronic headaches. If they test good then...

Second, Buy one of these:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005NLQAHS/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 There are other versions that are good too, but that is the one I have.
Use an app like Torque:Torque Pro (OBD 2 & Car) - Apps on Google Play This will let you read your own codes and reset them. It's well worth the money (and chicks dig it!)

The problem seems to report intermittently, sometimes an O2 sensor, sometimes the MAF, etc.? Unplug one at a time and drive it for a while (I don't remember if the 1GR will run while the MAF is unplugged). You'll throw a code for that sensor but you're looking to see if the code becomes consistent. In other words, if you unplug an o2 sensor and don't throw any other codes, you've found a likely culprit. Mind you it may not be the sensor, it could be anywhere in the electrical path for that sensor. Just a note, the 1GR (and Toyota motors in general) can be picky about O2 sensors. High quality replacements of the same type may still throw codes if they aren't exact OEM replacements. That's a goose chase I've been on before.

Last, If you can't find the problem just drive it. Intermittent problems are the hardest to troubleshoot. If you drive it for a while eventually something will fail for good and you can get it fixed for good. I know your confidence in the truck is shaken, but the codes it's throwing are emissions codes. They cause the truck to default to a very conservative timing and A/F ratio. The truck will run a bit rich and won't be as punchy as it should be, but it shouldn't fail catastrophically. In fact, the 1GR is the same motor used in the Hilux because it's extremely dependable in regions where fuel quality and replacement parts are... not.

On another note, it sounds like the previous dealer may be up to some shenanigans (or they got took on a trade). I don't know how things work where you are, but I know I would be taking a polite, yet firm, tone with original dealer. In Illinois "as-is no warranty" means you're on your own, unless you can prove the dealer failed to disclose a KNOWN defect. If the previous dealer coordinated the sub standard O2 sensors and cat work... they knew.

Good luck... sorry it sucks.

 

[firefoxed]

There's a lot going on here; namely the fact that so many hands have touched the truck it's hard to say where the original problem starts and the "fixes" end.

First, as [MENTION=149315]Ida4runner[/MENTION] alluded to earlier, take the truck to an auto parts store that does free battery/alternator testing and have them check it out. Borderline batteries/alternators can deliver the wrong voltage (high or low) and cause all sorts of seemingly unrelated electronic headaches. If they test good then...

Second, Buy one of these:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005NLQAHS/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 There are other versions that are good too, but that is the one I have.
Use an app like Torque:Torque Pro (OBD 2 & Car) - Apps on Google Play This will let you read your own codes and reset them. It's well worth the money (and chicks dig it!)

The problem seems to report intermittently, sometimes an O2 sensor, sometimes the MAF, etc.? Unplug one at a time and drive it for a while (I don't remember if the 1GR will run while the MAF is unplugged). You'll throw a code for that sensor but you're looking to see if the code becomes consistent. In other words, if you unplug an o2 sensor and don't throw any other codes, you've found a likely culprit. Mind you it may not be the sensor, it could be anywhere in the electrical path for that sensor. Just a note, the 1GR (and Toyota motors in general) can be picky about O2 sensors. High quality replacements of the same type may still throw codes if they aren't exact OEM replacements. That's a goose chase I've been on before.

Last, If you can't find the problem just drive it. Intermittent problems are the hardest to troubleshoot. If you drive it for a while eventually something will fail for good and you can get it fixed for good. I know your confidence in the truck is shaken, but the codes it's throwing are emissions codes. They cause the truck to default to a very conservative timing and A/F ratio. The truck will run a bit rich and won't be as punchy as it should be, but it shouldn't fail catastrophically. In fact, the 1GR is the same motor used in the Hilux because it's extremely dependable in regions where fuel quality and replacement parts are... not.

On another note, it sounds like the previous dealer may be up to some shenanigans (or they got took on a trade). I don't know how things work where you are, but I know I would be taking a polite, yet firm, tone with original dealer. In Illinois "as-is no warranty" means you're on your own, unless you can prove the dealer failed to disclose a KNOWN defect. If the previous dealer coordinated the sub standard O2 sensors and cat work... they knew.

Good luck... sorry it sucks.

Thank you for the helpful reply.

From reading the forums the correct o2 sensor was important for me so I made sure to request a Denso one from the mechanic i left it with. Second mechanic confirmed it was correct.

A few weeks ago I purchased the exact reader you linked to and the screenshots above are from the car scanner app on my phone. I found that software easier to read than the torque app.

The Toyota main dealer suggested it could be dangerous to drive (possible fire risk) if there was an issue regarding the catalytic converters. So it made me kinda scared to drive it. Also will running rich not ruin the brand new cat I just had fitted?

The original dealer was quite aggressive with me. Because after I had it with Toyota they questioned if the vehicle could have been able to pass state inspection. When I mentioned this to the guy I bought it from he accused me of calling him a liar and a cheat and he abused me really bad over the phone. He has since lowered his tone and is taking the I'm a victim like you from main dealers trying to rip you off. He said he like me was advised the ecm was bad so he replaced it and now feels ripped off for the first replacement.

I spoke with the service manager in the first Toyota dealership and he received it because the client noted there was a 0420 code. He said when they tested it they didn't find the code and notified the client. So the (client) dealer I bought it from takes that to mean he was selling the vehicle in good faith with no known faults. Not sure if they are complicit and I am only a recent immigrant to the US from Ireland so I don't know anything about consumer rights.

I'm not against spending the money, I just wanted it sorted so I can enjoy my first truck. Driving with a bunch of lights waiting on something to break is gonna suck and make me wary of spending more money to get it to look the way I want. Hopefully it will at least break quickly so I can get it sorted for the summer.

 

[firefoxed]

I suggest having another Toyota dealership diagnose it. I'd even explain the whole situation to them and they may waive the diag fee.

Seriously tempted to do this if the problem is not sorted. I would have thought an emission code diagnosis would be easy.

 

[ElZilcho]

A few weeks ago I purchased the exact reader you linked to and the screenshots above are from the car scanner app on my phone. I found that software easier to read than the torque app.

The Toyota main dealer suggested it could be dangerous to drive (possible fire risk) if there was an issue regarding the catalytic converters. So it made me kinda scared to drive it. Also will running rich not ruin the brand new cat I just had fitted?

The original dealer was quite aggressive with me.... ...He said he like me was advised the ecm was bad so he replaced it and now feels ripped off for the first replacement.

So the (client) dealer I bought it from takes that to mean he was selling the vehicle in good faith with no known faults. Not sure if they are complicit and I am only a recent immigrant to the US from Ireland so I don't know anything about consumer rights.

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

First, driving in open loop or limp mode (which is what it's called when the emissions codes are triggered) will NOT cause a fire or ruin the cat. Open loop timings and A/F ratios are conservatively safe targets. The only thing that will destroy the cat or cause a fire is a leaky injector or gasoline going straight down the exhaust. If that's happening you'll be getting misfires constantly. The 1GR is a super tough motor to kill.

Second, since you've got the scanner, and you know you can drive the truck safely, start troubleshooting.

Third, like [MENTION=294367]TenTwelve[/MENTION] said, take it to an independent third party. The Toyota dealer and the original dealer both have history with this truck. It's impossible to tell who is covering who's ass.

And fourth, I'm not a fan of litigation when I think there are more reasonable alternatives and I'm not familiar with dealer laws or emissions requirements in North Carolina but... In Illinois, Virginia, California, and (I'm sure) other states, tampering with vehicle emissions equipment is a crime with a fine in the thousands for a private citizen, and runs greater risks for dealerships. It's a federal statute but it's enforced differently in different states. This can get sticky even when you're trying to do the right thing. I got dinged once for putting the wrong cat on a truck (thinking it was right) but was given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to fix it before I got fined. IF the original dealer supervised shoddy emissions work (you said someone welded in an O2 sensor) they are ABSOLUTELY complicit. I don't know North Carolina vehicle code, and I'm no lawyer, but if you can't get this rectified, I would contact the states attorneys office of consumer complaints. They may tell you there is nothing you can do... They may look into it too. Sometimes there is a time limit on this so don't wait too long.

 

[TenTwelve]

I was actually recommending another Toyota dealership. Trust me dealerships do not cover each other's asses. We look forward to revealing another dealership screwed up or missed something. Go to a well established dealership that gets great reviews and ask for their master tech to have a look.

 

[firefoxed]

I was actually recommending another Toyota dealership. Trust me dealerships do not cover each other's asses. We look forward to revealing another dealership screwed up or missed something. Go to a well established dealership that gets great reviews and ask for their master tech to have a look.

The place I bought the truck from had it with his local Toyota main dealer twice before I purchased it but never told me about replacement ecm's or 0420 cat codes.

I live in a different town so when I started having problems with the truck I brought it to my local Toyota main dealer. Neither Toyota dealerships are connected, also my local dealership appears to have a good reputation. I thought that was my second opinion, instead I find myself having to use an independent mechanic to try find the issue because Toyota don't want to proceed any further unless I replace the ecm with a brand new one.

Will a third Toyota main dealer choose to go a different path or will they just look at the service history and also go with the big cost repair first? If I lived in a bigger city I guess I would have more options but locally here I have very little. Google searches seem to give similar feedback for most Toyota dealerships.

 

[firefoxed]

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

First, driving in open loop or limp mode (which is what it's called when the emissions codes are triggered) will NOT cause a fire or ruin the cat. Open loop timings and A/F ratios are conservatively safe targets. The only thing that will destroy the cat or cause a fire is a leaky injector or gasoline going straight down the exhaust. If that's happening you'll be getting misfires constantly. The 1GR is a super tough motor to kill.

Second, since you've got the scanner, and you know you can drive the truck safely, start troubleshooting.

Third, like [MENTION=294367]TenTwelve[/MENTION] said, take it to an independent third party. The Toyota dealer and the original dealer both have history with this truck. It's impossible to tell who is covering who's ass.

And fourth, I'm not a fan of litigation when I think there are more reasonable alternatives and I'm not familiar with dealer laws or emissions requirements in North Carolina but... In Illinois, Virginia, California, and (I'm sure) other states, tampering with vehicle emissions equipment is a crime with a fine in the thousands for a private citizen, and runs greater risks for dealerships. It's a federal statute but it's enforced differently in different states. This can get sticky even when you're trying to do the right thing. I got dinged once for putting the wrong cat on a truck (thinking it was right) but was given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to fix it before I got fined. IF the original dealer supervised shoddy emissions work (you said someone welded in an O2 sensor) they are ABSOLUTELY complicit. I don't know North Carolina vehicle code, and I'm no lawyer, but if you can't get this rectified, I would contact the states attorneys office of consumer complaints. They may tell you there is nothing you can do... They may look into it too. Sometimes there is a time limit on this so don't wait too long.

Thank you for the clear explanation of driving in limp mode, definitely makes me feel more secure about it.

The legal option I have asked about locally and the mechanics reckon "as is" leaves me no argument because the burden of proof would be on me. The states attorney office is an excellent suggestion and I will phone them tomorrow just to get some feedback.

I reckon it will be sometime next week before I get the truck back from the mechanic because he wants to run some tests after he swaps the ecm's.

 

[TenTwelve]

The place I bought the truck from had it with his local Toyota main dealer twice before I purchased it but never told me about replacement ecm's or 0420 cat codes.

I live in a different town so when I started having problems with the truck I brought it to my local Toyota main dealer. Neither Toyota dealerships are connected, also my local dealership appears to have a good reputation. I thought that was my second opinion, instead I find myself having to use an independent mechanic to try find the issue because Toyota don't want to proceed any further unless I replace the ecm with a brand new one.

Will a third Toyota main dealer choose to go a different path or will they just look at the service history and also go with the big cost repair first? If I lived in a bigger city I guess I would have more options but locally here I have very little. Google searches seem to give similar feedback for most Toyota dealerships.

I'd like to think a well established dealership with a good reputation would do the right thing, but I'm not naive. I can just tell you as a Toyota Service Advisor when someone comes to me for a second (or third) opinion I try to balance gaining trust without giving away the farm. I want someone to not only come back to my service department, but to me specifically.

 

[firefoxed]

I'd like to think a well established dealership with a good reputation would do the right thing, but I'm not naive. I can just tell you as a Toyota Service Advisor when someone comes to me for a second (or third) opinion I try to balance gaining trust without giving away the farm. I want someone to not only come back to my service department, but to me specifically.

The service advisor I was dealing with locally was really nice and was good to work with and explained how it was his job to make sure I was looked after. The truck was looked at on multiple occasions by their senior mechanic and after the o2 sensor was replaced the service advisor feels they have no choice but to replace the ecm with a new one. The truck is now on its third ecm, the original plus two from salvaged vehicles and they report similar emmision type faults each time, so its extremely unlikely to be the ecm.

My problem now is where my local dealer wants to start again from is replacing the ecm but cannot say this will solve the issue. They just need to rule it out, if I agree to a new ecm and the main dealer puts one in and it doesn't sort the issue can it be taken back out and then not be billed for it?

 

[firefoxed]

Spoke with the DMV today regarding the state inspection that the vehicle had and they referred me to their emissions department. So I phoned them and spoke with a really helpful guy who thinks it's very odd that within a couple of days of having a state inspection that it had issues and needed to go to a main dealer. He also thought the catalytic converter with the welded o2 sensor sounded very strange. He said I need to talk with the State Licence and Theft Inspector whose job it is to investigate "monkey business" at inspection centres.

He is only in his office between 8am and 10am so it will be Monday morning before I get to talk with him. I think the main issue will be trying to find out when the dodgy converter was installed. If it was fitted prior to the inspection Toyota reckon there is no way it could have passed, especially with a disconnected o2 sensor wire just doing nothing.