Need some expert opinions Shop ruined my crank!

[mercuryrising17]

I have another thread about my issues but that was more for diagnosis and now I need some expert opinions from some real mechanics. I appologize for making multiple threads but its kind of a different topic all together

The vehicle:
97 4runner 3.4 2wd
I was having power loss issues and after a long time I took it in to the second shop and they replaced my timing belt and the timing gear, the gear had worn out and caused the belt to slip. The truck ran great for a week and a half in town, took it on the interstate for 70 miles and when I got back into town it started stalling when coming to a stop. Anytime id be at idle it would stall. I stopped back by the shop and told them about it and they said its probably IAC Valve but couldn't check for a few days so I made an appointment. The next day it died on me driving and wouldnt start. I towed it to my house because i Figured it had to be a fuel pump. When I looked under my hood my belts were shreded, the crankshaft pulle/harmonic balancer was almost an inch off of where it should be, and now has to chunks taken out of it causing the tears in the belts. The shop did not put a new bolt on the crankshaft, and from what I have read everywhere that is a MUST because of the 215 lbs of tourque it must be applied to it.

So my real question is, is the shop liable for not tightening the crankshaft pulley correctly and not replacing the bolt? I have heard that it coming loose could ruin my Crank Shaft. Do you all agree with this?

The shop has had it for a week and a half and didnt call me, I had to call them finally today and they kind of sounded real iffy on it all but the owner wasnt able to take my call then. The lady said shed have to price a crank and labor and call me back. This is after a week and a half! and they still need to price parts and labor!

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys!

 

[mercuryrising17]

Here are the pics of the HB after i took my shredded belts off.

 

[gamefreakgc]

Shop needs to own up to its mistake.

I had a shop put a distributor in from the same year but wrong month and it ran terrible. Took it back and they fixed it at no charge. Simply put, the shop made a repair, reassembled it wrong and now it broke. Most shops will warranty their work, you should ask them to honor it.

 

[jhfleet]

I'm no expert but as far as I can find out Toyota considers the pulley/harmonic balancer bolt a reusable part. And, I don't know that the higher torque value applies to earlier engines, especially if the original bolt is re-used. I've checked TSBs and don't see that mentioned. I'd be suspicious that the bolt wasn't torqued to any spec and lock-tite wasn't used. Are you sure the crank is ruined? Seems like the more likely damage would be to the balancer, timing pulley, or the woodruff key.

 

[02SE]

So my real question is, is the shop liable for not tightening the crankshaft pulley correctly and not replacing the bolt? I have heard that it coming loose could ruin my Crank Shaft. Do you all agree with this?

I would say they are liable for their work. Any reputable shop will have insurance to cover their mistakes.

Having the crank bolt come loose, can lead to damage of the crank sufficient that it either needs to be repaired or replaced.

Without inspecting the crankshaft. I can't say whether yours is damaged or not.

 

[mercuryrising17]

Thanks for the quick replies. The shop said it needed a new crank. When I called they were really evasive with me and after saying shed get the owner, she came back on and told me she would have to price out parts and labor. Still havenet called back yet so im thinking they are trying to figure out the best way to handle it. My guess as to the HB having two chunks out of it is because they used a chain to hold it in place while tightening the bolt and damaged it, and the tech probably just tried to hide his mistake. I dont have an FSM but other boards have refrenced that it calls for replacing the bolt each time. This would be the 3rd timing belt replacement on this vehicle so maybe one time to reuse you can get away with but not 3. Thats probably why the FSM calls for a new bolt, because you never know how many times its been off and re torqued back down again.

 

[jhfleet]

Thanks for the quick replies. The shop said it needed a new crank. When I called they were really evasive with me and after saying shed get the owner, she came back on and told me she would have to price out parts and labor. Still havenet called back yet so im thinking they are trying to figure out the best way to handle it. My guess as to the HB having two chunks out of it is because they used a chain to hold it in place while tightening the bolt and damaged it, and the tech probably just tried to hide his mistake. I dont have an FSM but other boards have refrenced that it calls for replacing the bolt each time. This would be the 3rd timing belt replacement on this vehicle so maybe one time to reuse you can get away with but not 3. Thats probably why the FSM calls for a new bolt, because you never know how many times its been off and re torqued back down again.

No doubt it's a good idea to put in a new bolt, but my FSM makes no mention of it. Just says to install bolt and torque to 184 ft lbs.

 

[mercuryrising17]

No doubt it's a good idea to put in a new bolt, but my FSM makes no mention of it. Just says to install bolt and torque to 184 ft lbs.

How old is your manual? Ive read that 184 used to be the toyota specs but they changed it to 217 after several problems. Just curious. Thanks!

 

[jhfleet]

How old is your manual? Ive read that 184 used to be the toyota specs but they changed it to 217 after several problems. Just curious. Thanks!

It's for a '96 and is about that old. I've also got a downloaded Tacoma FSM dated February 2000 with the same info. If the torque has changed I'd expect it to be updated via a TSB. So far I haven't been able to find a TSB that addresses the issue.

 

[mercuryrising17]

http://web.archive.org/web/20120106033512/http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1996/SIL/techinfo.toyota.com/ileaf/02toyrm/02toypdf/02rmsour/2002/024runne/em5vzfe/timbel/inst.pdf

I love the internet! Finally found the page i needed. Just for an update to your manual in case you ever have to do yours. Page 4 on this pdf or em-22 does mention that it is 217 lbs and it does say to use a new bolt. It would be easy to glance over it. They dont highlight it or anything like that but it does say "using sst install new bolt" Pretty good little resource to have found.

Thanks again guys!

 

[TheDurk]

http://web.archive.org/web/20120106033512/http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1996/SIL/techinfo.toyota.com/ileaf/02toyrm/02toypdf/02rmsour/2002/024runne/em5vzfe/timbel/inst.pdf

I love the internet! Finally found the page i needed. Just for an update to your manual in case you ever have to do yours. Page 4 on this pdf or em-22 does mention that it is 217 lbs and it does say to use a new bolt. It would be easy to glance over it. They dont highlight it or anything like that but it does say "using sst install new bolt" Pretty good little resource to have found.

Thanks again guys!

You are absolutely correct that '99+ FSM specs a new bolt. I don't know about earlier. However, it has been widely reported that dealers routinely re-use the bolt. With red LocTite and torque to spec a used bolt should be good. Toyota specs non re-use on anything pre-coated with their version of LocTite. What is more likely is your shop simply under-torqued it.Given the scars on the HB, I'd bet they just got the torque as high as they could and called it good. It wasn't.

You probably can source a decent replacement engine for less than the cost of swapping a crank. I wish you luck and I hope the shop makes you whole. It's their fault. Those things don't come off by themselves.

 

[jhfleet]

http://web.archive.org/web/20120106033512/http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/1996/SIL/techinfo.toyota.com/ileaf/02toyrm/02toypdf/02rmsour/2002/024runne/em5vzfe/timbel/inst.pdf

I love the internet! Finally found the page i needed. Just for an update to your manual in case you ever have to do yours. Page 4 on this pdf or em-22 does mention that it is 217 lbs and it does say to use a new bolt. It would be easy to glance over it. They dont highlight it or anything like that but it does say "using sst install new bolt" Pretty good little resource to have found.

Thanks again guys!

Not to be argumentative, but your reference is for year 2002 T4Rs which use a different part number pulley bolt than the earlier Gen 3s. If I wanted to torque to 217 I'd make sure I was using the bolt specified for the 99-02. Otherwise I'd follow the 96-98 FSM. I've never had a problem after torqueing to 184 but I do faithfully use lock tite.

 

[mercuryrising17]

Not to be argumentative, but your reference is for year 2002 T4Rs which use a different part number pulley bolt than the earlier Gen 3s. If I wanted to torque to 217 I'd make sure I was using the bolt specified for the 99-02. Otherwise I'd follow the 96-98 FSM. I've never had a problem after torqueing to 184 but I do faithfully use lock tite.

I did not catch that it was for the 2002:ybrick:, it was listed under the 96-02 page. I could be wrong here but I believe the reason the part number is different is because toyota improved the bolt design on it after having several of these problems arise. The different part might just be the newer bolt after they realized the error. With it being the same engine though I would think that it should be the same, and the 02 is the updated specs. Again I could be wrong and not trying to be argumenative either. Good discussion to have out there though :typing:

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

I did not catch that it was for the 2002:ybrick:, it was listed under the 96-02 page. I could be wrong here but I believe the reason the part number is different is because toyota improved the bolt design on it after having several of these problems arise. The different part might just be the newer bolt after they realized the error. With it being the same engine though I would think that it should be the same, and the 02 is the updated specs. Again I could be wrong and not trying to be argumenative either. Good discussion to have out there though :typing:

My resources show two different part #s One for 96-99 One for 00-02. Pulley is different too. Everything else is the same including the crank shaft. Maybe the pulley is slightly thicker requiring a longer bolt. Not sure.

BOLT(FOR CRANKSHAFT PULLEY SET) 13105-16031 1 1995.11-1998.09 5VZFE.. VZN18# $6.09


BOLT(FOR CRANKSHAFT PULLEY SET) 13119-16006 1 1998.09- 5VZFE.. VZN18# $4.83


As far as your situation goes, that shop owes you a motor. I would push for a used motor that you would find and they would pay for and install and get some sort of warranty. I definitely don't want that shop installing a crankshaft

 

[LittleCaesar]

My local dealer only sells the 99+ bolt. In fact I don't think one can even purchase the old bolt since it has been superseded by the new one.

To the OP: if the shop doesn't cover all the costs, consider consulting an attorney. Or you could buy a 58 red Fury and go "Christine" on the shop employees.

 

[jhfleet]

I did not catch that it was for the 2002:ybrick:, it was listed under the 96-02 page. I could be wrong here but I believe the reason the part number is different is because toyota improved the bolt design on it after having several of these problems arise. The different part might just be the newer bolt after they realized the error. With it being the same engine though I would think that it should be the same, and the 02 is the updated specs. Again I could be wrong and not trying to be argumenative either. Good discussion to have out there though :typing:

Yes, good discussion. FWIW, the older part number is the only one listed for the 96-98 on the parts sites I've looked at. But, it's possible the new bolt may automatically be substituted when the old one is ordered. IMHO, if there was a problem they should have publicized it via a TSB. Their lawyers probably told them not to.

 

[TheDurk]

My resources show two different part #s One for 96-99 One for 00-02. Pulley is different too. Everything else is the same including the crank shaft. Maybe the pulley is slightly thicker requiring a longer bolt. Not sure.

BOLT(FOR CRANKSHAFT PULLEY SET) 13105-16031 1 1995.11-1998.09 5VZFE.. VZN18# $6.09


BOLT(FOR CRANKSHAFT PULLEY SET) 13119-16006 1 1998.09- 5VZFE.. VZN18# $4.83


As far as your situation goes, that shop owes you a motor. I would push for a used motor that you would find and they would pay for and install and get some sort of warranty. I definitely don't want that shop installing a crankshaft

Just to be clear, the early one is through MY 1998. MY '99 gets the later one. 09/1998 is when they started making MY '99's.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

Just to be clear, the early one is through MY 1998. MY '99 gets the later one. 09/1998 is when they started making MY '99's.

That's strange, when I put in a 99 4runner (which I didn't do at first) on the site I use mostly it shows both bolts. I defer to you however Durk. I wonder what the actual difference is. I would like to know this as the "new" 99 I just bought I may be doing the TB on and I would like to get the correct bolt. If I can't figure it out I just use the red Loctite with proper spec like I did on my 2000.
Come on on Durk I know you have a closeup of both bolts side by side:hatsoff:

 

[habanero]

The bolt in my hand ordered by vin for the 99 (4/99) 4Runner is as The Durk said, 90119-16006.

A while ago when doing the timing belt on the 96 the parts guy got me the torque spec out of their shop 'puter- 217 ft lbs. Is it for trues? I don't have anything to say it is or isn't.

 

[mercuryrising17]

Here is a post i found on another form about the same issue (apparently more common then you would think!)

"You do not need to get a new bolt, but be aware that they do have a new revision of the same bolt which you might not already one.

The "old" style is bronze with a loose washer and the "new" one is silver with a "built-in" washer. The newer revision is also a more precisly balanced bolt than the old one.

The reason they did a revision on those bolts is because the 3.4L has had crankshaft pulley 'wobble' issues which led to all kinds of engine troubles. To remedy the problem, Toyota created the new bolt and increased the torque specification to 200 ft/lbs+ whereas the old spec was less than that."

Not a whole lot of detail and take it for what its worth but thats all ive found so far on the differences.

Shop never called me back today like they said they would, my guess is they are trying to decide whats the best way to get out of their mess. Ill keep you updated on the outcome.