New 4xInnovations Plate Bumper

[JeepKiller]

Like what dimensions??

Height, length, weight, etc

 

[MtnT4R]

Thread revival....

I've been eyeballing the 4XInnovations armor to possibly put on this summer, but during the course of research I found this crash writeup:

Slee Rear Bumper Crash Test (Unofficial, Unsolicited, Unplanned)

This is a perfect example of a poorly designed product, the 4Runner's 4xInnovations Bumper failing and causing extreme amounts of damage. The bumper has minimal internal bracing and very few mounting points on the frame. EDIT: While I stick by the implication that the 4Runners bumper was a poorly designed and built product, I agree with the comment several posts below that it did what it was supposed to do in the crash. The trucks crumple zone functioned wonderfully and the driver walked away without a scratch.

We calculated the speed of impact to be at a net velocity of somewhere between 35-40mph. I was moving at 5-10mph and the other vehicle was moving at 40-45mph on impact.

Do you guys agree with that OP? He is pretty adamant that the quality of the 4XInnovations is crap, but the T4 did rear end a Land Cruiser with steel bumper and tire carrier...

 

[BrandonF]

Do you guys agree with that OP? He is pretty adamant that the quality of the 4XInnovations is crap, but the T4 did rear end a Land Cruiser with steel bumper and tire carrier...

I've seen that article before. There are so many variables that come into play here that its hard to say whether the quality of the bumper is to blame or not. I don't really understand how that bumper mounts to the frame and I've never seen the backside of one so I can't judge the structural integrity of its construction.

What I'm looking at is how the whole bumper has folded back into the vehicle. From what I can tell by the model on their website, it doesn't look like the frame bracket area continues very high vertically, which is possibly why it folded back like that and caused so much damage. That being said, in a collision, something has to give. With the way that I've designed my bumper, I can't see it folding back the way this bumper did. However, this means that the force is going to be absorbed elsewhere, like maybe the bending the frame. Either way, the vehicle would be a write off.

Another big factor here is the weight difference between the vehicles. 100-series land cruisers are very heavy. The weight difference would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 lbs. This alone is going to result in the 4runner sustaining way more damage.

In regards to the quality of 4xinnovations products, I have the 4xinnovations sliders and rear bumper on my 4runner. The sliders are garbage. They flex a lot and will bend into the rockers if you use them a lot. I just bent them back down and added reinforcement pieces last week. If thats not enough, they'll be cut off and thrown in the scrap pile. The rear bumper is pretty stout, but it has flexed into the body enough that the paint is cracked and its starting to get some surface rust. In its defense, it does hit things a lot and I've never owned any other rear bumper so I don't have much to compare to. Maybe any bumper would flex enough to do that.

To summarize, I'm pretty picky about the armor that goes on my truck and I haven't been blown away by any of the pieces of armor I've purchased for my truck. About two months ago, I replaced my (terrible) ARB bumper with my own design and so far its performed flawlessly. Tons of people love the ARB, so take my opinions with a grain of salt. I've already started throwing rear bumper designs around in my mind so who knows, maybe I'll build one of those next.

 

[MtnT4R]

I've seen that article before. There are so many variables that come into play here that its hard to say whether the quality of the bumper is to blame or not. I don't really understand how that bumper mounts to the frame and I've never seen the backside of one so I can't judge the structural integrity of its construction.

What I'm looking at is how the whole bumper has folded back into the vehicle. From what I can tell by the model on their website, it doesn't look like the frame bracket area continues very high vertically, which is possibly why it folded back like that and caused so much damage. That being said, in a collision, something has to give. With the way that I've designed my bumper, I can't see it folding back the way this bumper did. However, this means that the force is going to be absorbed elsewhere, like maybe the bending the frame. Either way, the vehicle would be a write off.

Another big factor here is the weight difference between the vehicles. 100-series land cruisers are very heavy. The weight difference would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 lbs. This alone is going to result in the 4runner sustaining way more damage.

In regards to the quality of 4xinnovations products, I have the 4xinnovations sliders and rear bumper on my 4runner. The sliders are garbage. They flex a lot and will bend into the rockers if you use them a lot. I just bent them back down and added reinforcement pieces last week. If thats not enough, they'll be cut off and thrown in the scrap pile. The rear bumper is pretty stout, but it has flexed into the body enough that the paint is cracked and its starting to get some surface rust. In its defense, it does hit things a lot and I've never owned any other rear bumper so I don't have much to compare to. Maybe any bumper would flex enough to do that.

To summarize, I'm pretty picky about the armor that goes on my truck and I haven't been blown away by any of the pieces of armor I've purchased for my truck. About two months ago, I replaced my (terrible) ARB bumper with my own design and so far its performed flawlessly. Tons of people love the ARB, so take my opinions with a grain of salt. I've already started throwing rear bumper designs around in my mind so who knows, maybe I'll build one of those next.

Thanks for the thorough response, great information. Your custom bumper looks sweet! I like the cut down profile, looks kinda similar to the Addicted Offroad plate bumper. I mostly tear around on fire trails but being in the Rockies, there are a lot of rocks(surprise?) so I deal with a fair amount of collisions, but never deal with anything like the sort of impacts that rock crawlers put up with. Was hoping to go with one company for front, rear and sliders for a little more contiguous look, and 4XInnovations fits that bill the best, but your experience with their sliders worries me. your doors took a lot of damage from what seems to be fairly moderate impacts...

 

[traxman25]

Here's my thoughts on it.

This was a heck of an impact. It takes a lot to break a windshield like that. If you look closely you can see that the front of the frame is bent. There is no car that will take a 40mph crash that won't bend the frame. They are designed to bend in crashes like this in the crumple zone. This is to absorb energy so you and your body are not subjected to as much force. Also note that the main damage to the grill and hood was not from the front bumper, but actually from the impact with the spare tire. Don't be fooled, in an impact like this a grill guard/headlight hoops would not have helped. There is not much strength in those elements.

The difference in strength between a front bumper and rear bumper is quite great. Most rear bumpers, the 100 and the 3rd gen t4r included, are basically inline with the frame putting the force directly into the frame. Where are most front bumpers mount with the bulk of the front bumper above the frame, putting most of the force into a bending moment to get to the frame. This greatly increases the amount of damage subjected during any impact. The damage between a front and rear will never be comparable.

That rear bumper took heavy damage also. The entire passenger side is twisted downward, and most of the pass side rear face was also destroyed. He says later in the thread that there was $10500 in damage to the 100.

This is from 2012 and was one of the very first plate bumpers we made. We have made vast improvements between that bumper and today's bumpers. Some of them from this incident. Primarily the main gussets are now full depth, and full height as well as added gussets in the wings.

 

[traxman25]

Brandon,

I'm sorry to hear you're having trouble with your sliders. Hard hits that twist the sliders are rare, but certainly are possible with ANY rock slider. For the last 10 years we have been very forward about the fact that people who really wheel their truck should select the DOM tubing. The DOM tubing is 30% stronger than the HREW. If you'd like to discuss upgrading please give me a call.

About your rear bumper: I'm being 100% serious here, not trying to push it off. The frames on these trucks is extremely flexible. It is the Toyota frame with the most flex of any I've ever worked on. if you want to see this for yourself, take your Hi Lift jack and lift your truck from the center of the bumper. What you'll see is that both side wings move relative to the body of the truck, yet you aren't applying any force on the wings! What you're seeing is the frame flexing as it takes the weight of the truck. Try it, you'll be surprised.

You won't see this with a stock bumper because they mount to the body. Mounting to the body has no structural rigidity for off road or recovery use. You'd shred the body if we mounted one of these to it.

 

[MtnT4R]

Here's my thoughts on it.

This was a heck of an impact. It takes a lot to break a windshield like that. If you look closely you can see that the front of the frame is bent. There is no car that will take a 40mph crash that won't bend the frame. They are designed to bend in crashes like this in the crumple zone. This is to absorb energy so you and your body are not subjected to as much force. Also note that the main damage to the grill and hood was not from the front bumper, but actually from the impact with the spare tire. Don't be fooled, in an impact like this a grill guard/headlight hoops would not have helped. There is not much strength in those elements.

Thank you for responding. When I first read that post, my first impression was that if anyone believes a 40mph crash wont total a vehicle they must be delusional. If your vehicle took a hit like that and didn't crumple you probably wouldn't be walking away. You'd either go through the windshield or your seat belt would literally kill you.

The difference in strength between a front bumper and rear bumper is quite great. Most rear bumpers, the 100 and the 3rd gen t4r included, are basically inline with the frame putting the force directly into the frame. Where are most front bumpers mount with the bulk of the front bumper above the frame, putting most of the force into a bending moment to get to the frame. This greatly increases the amount of damage subjected during any impact. The damage between a front and rear will never be comparable.

That rear bumper took heavy damage also. The entire passenger side is twisted downward, and most of the pass side rear face was also destroyed. He says later in the thread that there was $10500 in damage to the 100.

I hadn't considered this. Great point. Looking at those photos it really seems like that big ass tire caused most of the damage to the hood and grill, while the slightly higher LC bumper hit the upper face of the bumper and the combined force of the impact and larger mass of the LC forced it downwards. Just an uneducated guess though, I don't look at car crashes for a living.

This is from 2012 and was one of the very first plate bumpers we made. We have made vast improvements between that bumper and today's bumpers. Some of them from this incident. Primarily the main gussets are now full depth, and full height as well as added gussets in the wings.

I was wondering about this as well. I figured you probably get feedback and are continually updating the design. It looks like you took a lot away from that crash and improved the design accordingly.

Your designs look great and really look like they integrate well with the 4Runner's design, but I've always believed form takes a backseat to function, so I appreciate the input on your product's durability.

 

[Chim]

DOM doesn't necessarily mean better.. see this interesting article from Marlin Crawler.. its all in the quality of the materials being used is what it looks like.

We test Marlin Crawler's HREW vs. Competitor's DOM Bumper Steel

 

[traxman25]

Thank you for responding. When I first read that post, my first impression was that if anyone believes a 40mph crash wont total a vehicle they must be delusional. If your vehicle took a hit like that and didn't crumple you probably wouldn't be walking away. You'd either go through the windshield or your seat belt would literally kill you.

That might be a bit extreme, but it is certainly the correct concept.

I hadn't considered this. Great point. Looking at those photos it really seems like that big ass tire caused most of the damage to the hood and grill, while the slightly higher LC bumper hit the upper face of the bumper and the combined force of the impact and larger mass of the LC forced it downwards. Just an uneducated guess though, I don't look at car crashes for a living.




I was wondering about this as well. I figured you probably get feedback and are continually updating the design. It looks like you took a lot away from that crash and improved the design accordingly.

Your designs look great and really look like they integrate well with the 4Runner's design, but I've always believed form takes a backseat to function, so I appreciate the input on your product's durability.

We do update products, a lot has been learned an implemented into all our plate bumper designs.

DOM doesn't necessarily mean better.. see this interesting article from Marlin Crawler.. its all in the quality of the materials being used is what it looks like.

We test Marlin Crawler's HREW vs. Competitor's DOM Bumper Steel

Big Mike made that write up while they were still a dealer for our T-Case mounts (before they ripped them off and started having a buddy make them). He and I had words over that article. It is doing the industry a huge disservice because it is comparing a USA made HREW tubing to a Chinese "DOM" tubing (they cut up TG sliders for this test), but he does not actually come out and say that in his article. The reason he doesn't say that you might ask? Because Marlin doesn't make DOM sliders, and they don't want you to know that USA DOM is better than their USA HREW sliders. We spec domestically melted and manufactured materials for everything. We won't even allow foreign melts that were rolled here to be used in our products as it's still junk foreign steel!!! Yep you read that right, some companies are selling "domestic" material that is actually a foreign steel that was imported in one shape (usually a huge coil) then "manufactured" into the final shape here (tubing in this case).:nono:

Another important note is that in the opening of his article he ignores the importance of the grade of steel. We use a 1008-1010 grade HREW tubing (the only readily available grade HREW). But our DOM is 1018 that is cold worked (drawn). 1018 is marginally stronger than 1010 to start with, plus cold working it increases the strength even more.

Working with real USA HREW vs. DOM you know the difference is real. It takes more to bend (watch the hydro pressure or motor current gauges), it takes more to tweak, it takes more to crush the end in a press and it even welds nicer. If you'd like to try it give me call, you pay postage and I'll send you a scrap of each to do with as you please, but I don't have any Chinese or India material here. I guess we'll have our summer guy go do a write up to prove it.

 

[Chim]

We do update products, a lot has been learned an implemented into all our plate bumper designs.



Big Mike made that write up while they were still a dealer for our T-Case mounts (before they ripped them off and started having a buddy make them). He and I had words over that article. It is doing the industry a huge disservice because it is comparing a USA made HREW tubing to a Chinese "DOM" tubing (they cut up TG sliders for this test), but he does not actually come out and say that in his article. The reason he doesn't say that you might ask? Because Marlin doesn't make DOM sliders, and they don't want you to know that USA DOM is better than their USA HREW sliders. We spec domestically melted and manufactured materials for everything. We won't even allow foreign melts that were rolled here to be used in our products as it's still junk foreign steel!!! Yep you read that right, some companies are selling "domestic" material that is actually a foreign steel that was imported in one shape (usually a huge coil) then "manufactured" into the final shape here (tubing in this case).:nono:

Another important note is that in the opening of his article he ignores the importance of the grade of steel. We use a 1008-1010 grade HREW tubing (the only readily available grade HREW). But our DOM is 1018 that is cold worked (drawn). 1018 is marginally stronger than 1010 to start with, plus cold working it increases the strength even more.

Working with real USA HREW vs. DOM you know the difference is real. It takes more to bend (watch the hydro pressure or motor current gauges), it takes more to tweak, it takes more to crush the end in a press and it even welds nicer. If you'd like to try it give me call, you pay postage and I'll send you a scrap of each to do with as you please, but I don't have any Chinese or India material here. I guess we'll have our summer guy go do a write up to prove it.

I think we all assumed it was Trail gear This is definitely interesting and worth considering! I would love to see a solid article to refute that info from Marlin.. real tests are always good. It is good to know that there are some fabricators out there that take the time to know the materials they are working with instead of just looking at the bottom line and what will yield the best profit.

I have no experience with your sliders but I do have your rear bumper with carrier.. Its beefy as heck and super high quality. Only gripe is that when I hit and bump the rear tire flexes on the carrier and you can feel it but I don't think there is anyway around that besides running a baby tire

Thanks for the info!

 

[Ghosty]

Do you guys agree with that OP? He is pretty adamant that the quality of the 4XInnovations is crap, but the T4 did rear end a Land Cruiser with steel bumper and tire carrier...

I'm about to pick up my '99 4R from the bodyshop tomorrow. I read all the Shrockworks and 4xInnovations bumper threads I could find, even from five years ago, before I put in my order. So far, I've only seen it test-mounted before removal and paint, but everything my shop guy has said so far has been super positive on quality, fit, look, etc. No problems, all went together perfectly. I will update you guys with a new thread since I've also recently got a 3" Toytec Bilstein lift and new Duratracs.

As for the LandCruiser crash, I tend to agree with most of the posts defending the 4xI bumper, and not because I own one now, heh. I'm a firm believer in crumple zones, force transfer and suppression vs. very rigid bumpers transferring all energy into the body/frame/engine and hopefully not the passenger(s)! I also take into account the LC's size/weight and heavy duty rear bumper. The 4xI bumper is not thin/fragile, imo, just from personal inspection. I'm not a crash expert, but this is my 6th Toyota, incl. five trucks, so take all this as an opinion. It weighs 100#, so that's no flimsy thing. Whether it needs further inside bracing or support is a question for a real engineer and/or crash testing.

 

[silver4est]

I’m waiting on my 4x bumper to get here, waiting til May actually. But, when installing it, we remove the factory bumper arms correct? The 4x bumper wings bolt up where the factory arms where?
My bumper brackets and arms are bent to hell, lol. Little pre planning hoping all goes well.

 

[MaineRunna]

Thank you all for your kind words on the new bumper, and thank you to catalina34 for posting this. He must be stalking me as it wasn't even officially announced until this morning.

Anyway, just to clarify two things from this thread, this is NOT a copy of the Shrockworks bumper we've got hundreds of hours in engineering time working from the ground up on this beautiful creation. Also the stinger can be easily customized.

I have an email in to the mods about becoming a sponsor here so until then that's all I'll post for now.

I bought a pair of these bumpers off you last summer and I absolutely love them!!! Thanks for such an awesome product. A good buddy of mine here in Maine is from Platteville, his dad sent him a picture of your sign last time he visited WI after I told him I got the bumpers from his hometown.
I will say, also that I powder coated the bumpers with a textured satin black finish and they look great, but I wish I had them bed lined instead.

 

[traxman25]

I’m waiting on my 4x bumper to get here, waiting til May actually. But, when installing it, we remove the factory bumper arms correct? The 4x bumper wings bolt up where the factory arms where?
My bumper brackets and arms are bent to hell, lol. Little pre planning hoping all goes well.

Yes our bumper replaces everything back to the frame for the main mounts and the wing supports.

I bought a pair of these bumpers off you last summer and I absolutely love them!!! Thanks for such an awesome product. A good buddy of mine here in Maine is from Platteville, his dad sent him a picture of your sign last time he visited WI after I told him I got the bumpers from his hometown.
I will say, also that I powder coated the bumpers with a textured satin black finish and they look great, but I wish I had them bed lined instead.

Thanks for the awesome feed back! We have to get our new sign cut and put up haha.