Obama: US has always paid it's bills

Obamacare is a Ponzi scheme, like Social Security.

They are betting on young people, who are otherwise healthy and would never typically utilize insurance, to suddenly get motivated by celebrities like Katy Perry to buy policies that cost 5-7k a year and have 2500 dollar deductibles on hospitalizations. I know that I'm not brilliant like Obama, but just how many 20-30 year olds, with no money, are going to spend 6 grand of money they don't have on a health plan they don't plan on using? Of course there is a "penalty" of less than a hundred bucks the first year, then a few hundred the next--so they will suddenly be motivated to spend a few THOUSAND dollars to avoid a few HUNDRED dollar penalty?

If the young people don't buy into the exchanges, to offset the subsidized cost of heavy utilizers, like seniors and chronically ill, the government will continue to increase the rates of those of us who already have good health plans (or Cadillac plans like the garbage in DC calls it, while exempting their own Cadillac plans from being taxed) to lower the costs for the exchanges. They will also continue to slash doctor reimbursement and increase the taxes on medical device manufacturers. Of course if you're on welfare and entitled, you still won't have to bother to buy health care, that will continue to be free. Insurance companies will have a cap on how much they can jack up rates each year, but that doesn't take effect until later so they're already raising rates.

Let's not even start to discuss how employers are cutting more and more employees to less than 30 hours so they don't have to provide them health care and making sure they don't have more than 50 employees--so they're limiting hires.

This is another shit scam written by idiot politicians and shoved onto the nation under the socialist auspices of "fairness."

Lower 2014 income can net huge health care subsidy - SFGate ...this is my favorite link. If your new Obamacare premiums are too high, just "adjust your income" read: EARN LESS to get huge savings and subsidies. That's right, the Government is rewarding, even encouraging you to be poor. There is becoming less and less motivation to work in this country, as we continue to expand safety nets for those who can't even be bothered to wake up early each day and take care of themselves.

Our country is in the shitter. If you dare criticize this wonderful plan, Obama parades out people who are sick and are suddenly and miraculously saved from Republicans and CERTAIN DEATH by his wonderful health plan.

I look forward to an emergence of a cash only private medical system in this country, where goods and services are upfront, exempt from any government meddling, and you can opt to PAY for quality medical care and doctors are appropriately reimbursed and not nickel and dimed by greedy insurance companies and politicians (and I guess the IRS now fits in there, too).

You can speak it till you're blue in the face, Obamajamma's Kool Aid is some potent $hit!!!

The bleeding heart "gimmie gimme" party is completely brainwashed. If every conservative left the country they would have to sit around and cry on each others shoulders about their problems (because so few are working to support themselves).

You know what they say, you can lead them to water.....but if you're Obama you can buy their loyalty with handouts!!!!! :loco:
 
God bless BigNuge for a stellar effort in trying to talk sense to a liberal!
By the way, I don't have to speculate about what Obamacare will do.... for many of us it is already happening. I work for a large company that historically had good health insurance and options, but starting this year in direct response to O-care:

1. Our typical 3-4 choices dropped to one, so I lost the one I preferred
2. My employee contributions went up 35%, plus deductibles I pay are higher
3. I received a letter from my long-time doctor informing me that in light of the ACA he can no longer keep his clinic running, so he dropped out of internal medicine.

So, all three things O said would not happen are already happening. Plus we just got a notice for signing up 2014 and we've been informed costs will be rising again.
Finally, I heard a news piece last week on CBS (normally big consumers of O-kool-aid) of all places and the anchor was asking the question: "So what is the motivation of the young healthy people to sign up and pay much more, knowing they will get less care and they're being leaned on to pay for others...?"
You would have to be truly delusional to believe O-care will save money. Yes I agree with some people that O-care might collapse under its own incompetence... but the scary thing is that once the govt establishes a new gluttonous money-sucking vehicle, they rarely if ever successfully terminate it.
I'm afraid we're in deep trouble.
 
God bless BigNuge for a stellar effort in trying to talk sense to a liberal!
By the way, I don't have to speculate about what Obamacare will do.... for many of us it is already happening. I work for a large company that historically had good health insurance and options, but starting this year in direct response to O-care:

1. Our typical 3-4 choices dropped to one, so I lost the one I preferred
2. My employee contributions went up 35%, plus deductibles I pay are higher
3. I received a letter from my long-time doctor informing me that in light of the ACA he can no longer keep his clinic running, so he dropped out of internal medicine.

So, all three things O said would not happen are already happening. Plus we just got a notice for signing up 2014 and we've been informed costs will be rising again.
Finally, I heard a news piece last week on CBS (normally big consumers of O-kool-aid) of all places and the anchor was asking the question: "So what is the motivation of the young healthy people to sign up and pay much more, knowing they will get less care and they're being leaned on to pay for others...?"
You would have to be truly delusional to believe O-care will save money. Yes I agree with some people that O-care might collapse under its own incompetence... but the scary thing is that once the govt establishes a new gluttonous money-sucking vehicle, they rarely if ever successfully terminate it.
I'm afraid we're in deep trouble.

Yep.

I've talked to several Business Owner Friends, and a couple Relatives, that are having to make the hard choices too. Reduce their workforce size. Cut back hours for hourly employee's. Not hire new employee's. Go with new higher cost plans that will mean more money out of employee's pockets up front, AND later with higher deductibles. Or just say to hell with it, and close their doors entirely, putting even more people out of work.

I'm grateful I'm no longer a business owner, that has to make those decisions.
 
You can speak it till you're blue in the face, Obamajamma's Kool Aid is some potent $hit!!!

The bleeding heart "gimmie gimme" party is completely brainwashed. If every conservative left the country they would have to sit around and cry on each others shoulders about their problems (because so few are working to support themselves).

You know what they say, you can lead them to water.....but if you're Obama you can buy their loyalty with handouts!!!!! :loco:


The problem with this logic is the fact that the states that vote conservative also tend to receive the most federal assistance.

Federal taxation and spending by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not sayin that your views are biased or anything, jus sayin...
 
So I talked to some people once and they said their bills were like going up or something so I'm against Obamacare.

In fact I base all my positions on random anecdotes.

God bless.
 
The problem with this logic is the fact that the states that vote conservative also tend to receive the most federal assistance.

Federal taxation and spending by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not sayin that your views are biased or anything, jus sayin...

Trust me, I want all of the leaches cut off. I don't care if it is a red state or a blue state.

When I said conservative, I mean a true conservative. One who would rather starve before taking welfare.

So I talked to some people once and they said their bills were like going up or something so I'm against Obamacare.

In fact I base all my positions on random anecdotes.

God bless.

And you based your position on Obamacare using what????? Assumptions and brainwashing.

Yeah, using articles from profitable business news companies is anecdotal...:suspicious:


:hail: "Obama is King, I don't want to be responsible for my life, he will provide all that I need, give him all of the guns, give him control of our lives, give him control of our healthcare, he will send EBT cards & checks" :hail:

Here, have a look at your brethren, you can rest assured this is an Obama voter!! Why dont you just open your house up to this idiot dirtbag......c'mon man, her and her 15 kids need clothes, money, healthcare, housing, food, cell phone, school'n......A model Obama voter & Obamacare lover!!!

I GOTS 15 KIDS & SOMEBODY NEEDS TO PAY FOR THEM - YouTube

Get. A. Clue.

This pretty much sums up most of the arguments in this thread.

See above.....
 
So I talked to some people once and they said their bills were like going up or something so I'm against Obamacare.

In fact I base all my positions on random anecdotes.

God bless.

I'm sorry, but how can any reasonable-minded individual think that now that insurance is mandatory, those with decent plans need to subsidize those who can't afford even the crappiest plans, those who can't pay for insurance still don't have to buy it, and prison/institution insurance now being shifted from the Feds into state exchanges... how would you expect costs to go DOWN?

Insurance companies are dumping expensive enrolees and funneling them to exchanges where they are selling trash policies to those who are now mandated to buy insurance and charging an arm and a leg for policies with deductibles high enough to buy a decent new motorbike.

Doctors are being paid less and told to work more, also taxed more, and expected to navigate the mess that is the new electronic medical records mandated by THE ONE.

Medical device manufacturers (everything from a BP cuff to an MRI) are being taxed.

Everything is expected to be done cheaper and faster with less resources. You have to seriously live in an alternate universe to think that costs will go down. They keep throwing out the argument that insurance companies are being "forced to compete." No one is going to compete hard over providing shitty policies to people with terrible health, they'll just all sell them trash policies and hope to make the real money selling expensive plans to those of us who still can afford to have decent health care.

Obamacare will just lower the quality of care for even more Americans.
 
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WHY ARE YOU REDIRECTING??????????

We are discussing the extremely poor job the federal government does managing anything.

Ive visited/dealt with 5 different VA hospitals in New England on multiple different levels (Emergency Medicine, Vendor/Contractor, Personal care issues with my Grandfather). Unless you're career and have been station all over the US I'd say I have dealt with more VA hospitals in more levels than most. 5 in New England (in the most populated areas) is a good enough cross section that I feel comfortable making those statements.

To speak briefly to your private sector comment: The exaggerated cost/charges of healthcare is due (in large part) to so many going to the hospital for anything/everything and not even trying to pay for it. Obamacare is simply going to take my already expensive (but quality) care and make it significantly more expensive (and drop the quality exponentially). Dont try and say it wont, IT NEEDS TO HAPPEN TO PAY FOR ALL OF THE LEACHES TO GET CARE :frusty:

My Grandfather is gone so woulda/shoulda/coulda means nothing moving forward.

I'm just curious. Do you actually work for the federal government? Have you previously? Instead of bagging on the government, do you have a plan to make it work better/more efficiently?

If you can come up with a better way to provide services for the largest and most diverse population of uber-demanding, self-interested, "me"-oriented citizens on the planet, go for it. Otherwise, beating the "let's-blame-the-government-for-everything" drum is kind of pointless. You're doing exactly what the politicians want you to do: ever since the economy went into the gutter, a certain segment of our elected "leadership" have decided that blaming the big, bad government for everything is a great wally to rally support for (surprise, surprise) themselves.

Considering the challenges faced by our civilian government - not our elected officials, but the people who actually have to work for a living, even under bad policy - I think they do a pretty good job. Especially given the cutbacks and limited funding that most of the government has endured during the last 2 wars.

Is there cronyism and waste in the federal government? Yup. But it's also there in state government, local government, at Microsoft, Exxon-Mobil, General Motors, Bob's Hot Dog Emporium, and any other business that employs more than 4 people.

No offense to you, but I've lost count of how many times you've used the word "liberal" as an insult in the posts above. All that does is undermine your credibility as a rational, open-minded, free-thinking member of our democracy. There's nothing wrong with being either conservative or liberal, but when you blame the other side for everything that's wrong, you're obviously drinking way too much of your own side's kool-aid (posting blurbs from conservative blogs as alleged "news" sources in order to support an argument is indicative of that).
 
So another area I think conservatives are losing a lot of traction is the harshly reactive manor in which they refute moderate or opposing viewpoints with playground phrases like "obama lover" or somehow being brainwashed, having drank "Kool Aid" etc. It immediately stunts any productive discussion and in my opinion simply makes the user seem both ignorant and irrelevant.

Add to this the conservative idea that Obama is some bastion of liberal of ideals. If we ever had a actual and true liberal president you all would be crapping your pants.

The Republican party is a sinking ship right now and instead of handing out buckets to keep it afloat, their base is pointing the finger, hurling insults and most simply refuting reality.

Play the hand you're dealt already.

ETA - just saw your post above Randy, now I feel I'm beating a dead horse, oops.
 
So I talked to some people once and they said their bills were like going up or something so I'm against Obamacare.

In fact I base all my positions on random anecdotes.

God bless.

I'm assuming this condescending, snarky post was in response to my comment.

Anyway, the people I've talked to about the ACA rollout, and it's direct effects on their businesses, are not random. They are real people and concerned business owners. When I was a business owner, I belonged to an organization of business owners. These are the friends and former colleagues I'm referring to.

The vast majority of those people are good people, that feel a real responsibility to their employees to remain solvent. If their business goes under, all of their employees are out of a job. In today's economy, that's a bad thing for most people.

Lots of Businesses are operating on razor-thin margins. As a Business, you can only charge a certain amount for your product or service, before people are no longer willing or able to buy it. If your expenses exceed your income, changes have to be made, or you go out of business.

For the people affected by these changes, it's not anecdotal, it's real life.

Unlike the Government, private businesses can't rack up ever increasing debt, and just print money backed by their own word, to cover their costs and still remain viable.


It's easy to be flippant, and sit on the sidelines making crass comments, if you've never been directly responsible for another human beings livelihood.
 
just got my annual health enrollment signup data for 2014. my family coverage employee contribution has officially gone up ~ 44% as compared to 2012.
Also from 2013 to 2014, deductible I have to cover per person went from $650 to $1000... oh, and I have to go find a primary care doctor since the one Obama said I could keep had to close his clinic... nothing anecdotal about this ;-)
.
 
I'm just curious. Do you actually work for the federal government? Have you previously? Instead of bagging on the government, do you have a plan to make it work better/more efficiently?

If you can come up with a better way to provide services for the largest and most diverse population of uber-demanding, self-interested, "me"-oriented citizens on the planet, go for it. Otherwise, beating the "let's-blame-the-government-for-everything" drum is kind of pointless. You're doing exactly what the politicians want you to do: ever since the economy went into the gutter, a certain segment of our elected "leadership" have decided that blaming the big, bad government for everything is a great wally to rally support for (surprise, surprise) themselves.

Considering the challenges faced by our civilian government - not our elected officials, but the people who actually have to work for a living, even under bad policy - I think they do a pretty good job. Especially given the cutbacks and limited funding that most of the government has endured during the last 2 wars.

Is there cronyism and waste in the federal government? Yup. But it's also there in state government, local government, at Microsoft, Exxon-Mobil, General Motors, Bob's Hot Dog Emporium, and any other business that employs more than 4 people.

No offense to you, but I've lost count of how many times you've used the word "liberal" as an insult in the posts above. All that does is undermine your credibility as a rational, open-minded, free-thinking member of our democracy. There's nothing wrong with being either conservative or liberal, but when you blame the other side for everything that's wrong, you're obviously drinking way too much of your own side's kool-aid (posting blurbs from conservative blogs as alleged "news" sources in order to support an argument is indicative of that).

So your issue is that I hold the government responsible for what the governemt does (or more precisely doesn't do), and I shouldnt do that.......:suspicious:

A plan, I have a plan. Everybody gets off their lazy ass (red/blue/white/black/purple....whatever) and supports themselves, THATS MY PLAN.

If a private company does something to piss me off I stop patronizing them, thats it. Can't do that with the government THATS WHY I'M PISSED. You don't make that distinction??????

So another area I think conservatives are losing a lot of traction is the harshly reactive manor in which they refute moderate or opposing viewpoints with playground phrases like "obama lover" or somehow being brainwashed, having drank "Kool Aid" etc. It immediately stunts any productive discussion and in my opinion simply makes the user seem both ignorant and irrelevant.

Add to this the conservative idea that Obama is some bastion of liberal of ideals. If we ever had a actual and true liberal president you all would be crapping your pants.

The Republican party is a sinking ship right now and instead of handing out buckets to keep it afloat, their base is pointing the finger, hurling insults and most simply refuting reality.

Play the hand you're dealt already.

ETA - just saw your post above Randy, now I feel I'm beating a dead horse, oops.

Love that line "Play the hand you're dealt already"

Another real gem.....

I was not dealt that hand, the government shoved it in our face. I'll never accept that.
 
I was not dealt that hand, the government shoved it in our face. I'll never accept that.

You're an angry guy! Remember we live in a democracy so you vote and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and while you don't have to accept the results the government was elected by people like you and me. Without assuming too much you appear to be a very conservative, maybe even Tea Party conservative which means you have a lot of frustration ahead since the Republican Party is hurting themselves with this mess and will be hard-pressed to counter the tarnished image in future elections.

As you drive to work tomorrow remember to thank the government that built your roads, parks, police, fire and military for services you are entitled to and receive even if they weren't something you voted for. That's the way things work in this country and I hope that it stays that way. No we aren't heading to Socialism or Communism, we aren't perfect as a government any more than as individuals. Keep on voting, write your legislators and respect what we have rather than what you want. This is not about you, it's about us.
 
You're an angry guy! Remember we live in a democracy so you vote and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and while you don't have to accept the results the government was elected by people like you and me. Without assuming too much you appear to be a very conservative, maybe even Tea Party conservative which means you have a lot of frustration ahead since the Republican Party is hurting themselves with this mess and will be hard-pressed to counter the tarnished image in future elections.

As you drive to work tomorrow remember to thank the government that built your roads, parks, police, fire and military for services you are entitled to and receive even if they weren't something you voted for. That's the way things work in this country and I hope that it stays that way. No we aren't heading to Socialism or Communism, we aren't perfect as a government any more than as individuals. Keep on voting, write your legislators and respect what we have rather than what you want. This is not about you, it's about us.

To clarify, we live in a Constitutional Republic. I will leave it to you to research the difference between a Constitutional Republic and a Democracy.

Am I frustrated, you bet.
 
To clarify, we live in a Constitutional Republic. I will leave it to you to research the difference between a Constitutional Republic and a Democracy.

I'm aware of the difference, go ahead and vote for Ron Paul or whoever you favor. Learn to live with your frustration.

-unsubscribed-
 
...And now we've raised the debt ceiling and everyone's happy again. My goodness those people need to grow a backbone.
 
...And now we've raised the debt ceiling and everyone's happy again. My goodness those people need to grow a backbone.

I think it's just that that particular inning (or period, or quarter, etc.) is over. The political games will start back after a brief intermission.:flypig:
 
So your issue is that I hold the government responsible for what the governemt does (or more precisely doesn't do), and I shouldnt do that.......:suspicious:

A plan, I have a plan. Everybody gets off their lazy ass (red/blue/white/black/purple....whatever) and supports themselves, THATS MY PLAN.

If a private company does something to piss me off I stop patronizing them, thats it. Can't do that with the government THATS WHY I'M PISSED. You don't make that distinction??????

My issue is the fact that you think your personal negative experience with the VA (when others have had positive ones, as evidenced in this very thread) and the fact that you worked on a boiler in a government building (??) makes you an authority on what the federal government is or is not doing right.

You're like every other person who likes to armchair-quarterback how the government should be run, in a perfect world. It's easy to have an opinion without understanding federal budgets, or how cutbacks, allocations, and the inevitable re-allocations affect a given government agency's mission and their ability to accomplish it (or not).

Perhaps the VA would be "better run"- if they never lost X million to cuts, forcing them to leave positions vacant...or of they never lost funding for certain programs. I don't know if any of this did or didn't happen; I'm just using the agency as an example. But as someone who's been at the receiving end of one fiscal cut after another since 9/11, I can pretty much bet most agencies feel this kind of pain on some level. Even Homeland Security has been getting cut recently, and they've traditionally had money to burn since they were created.

On top of that, you have politicians deciding that a given government agency is good or bad based purely on how it affects their own popularity, then using the media (and a healthy dose of propaganda - usually on a level that would make Josef Goebbels proud) to rally Americans for or against it. A good example was Rand Paul demonizing the Department of the Interior and trying to gut America's wildlife protection laws, simply because Gibson Guitar - a large, well-known company in a neighboring state - decided to break some laws, then whined ever-so-loudly when they got caught and were prosecuted. He wasn't successful, but caused a lot of problems for people who were just trying to do their jobs, all to make himself more popular. And it worked.

My issue is simply that you don't know what you're talking about. You're complaining because people like to complain, especially about things they don't understand and even if they don't know how to fix them. And often because others are complaining as well. And lets add some media spin to really make people mad. And that's about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.

"Everyone get off their lazy a$$." Nice plan, but not realistic and not likely to happen with what is arguably one of the laziest populations in existence.

People always say "if I ran my company the way they run the government, I'd be out of business..." Problem is, most businesses have extremely narrow missions. More often than not, they're about profit. The government's missions include protecting the country and it's people, enforcing laws, ensuring freedoms, collecting taxes and (hopefully) paying for services and the country's debts, etc. (Wayyyy overgeneralized, of course).

On top of all that, though, is trying to make 300+ million people happy. People with wildly different motivations, interpretations, and levels of understanding. I think we all agree that there's no way on earth to do that. Add in the fact that we all pay taxes and don't necessarily like it and there's reallly no way.

If the government is doing something to "pi$$ you off," it's likely because a majority of your fellow citizens favored it. Even if it were practical, you don't GET to "stop patronizing" your government for that reason. That's not how majority rule works. There are plenty of policies that I don't like, but I don't bag on the government for doing its job and implementing the will of the majority. Instead, I try to change the opinions of anyone who supports them by sharing my opposing view, albeit in a professional and non-insulting manner. The way you're talking about "liberal"- this and "liberal"-that, as if it's a dirty word, shows me that you've decided not to take that approach. There's a lot more anger than rationalism there, I think, because you don't strike me as a stupid person. While most people seem to be willing to listen to a differing point of view, most will also simply shut down and ignore you when you come at them with this kind of attitude. Imagine someone at work offering up an idea in a roomful of co-workers and someone immediately opposes it by calling them a "bleeding-heart liberal pu$$y..."

Personally, I'm neither a democrat nor a republican, but I DO consider myself "liberal" - not in the insult/political/bashing sense that's commonly all-too-frequently used, but in the fact that I consider myself willing to listen to an opposing view. Because you never know: a different way may work better. And not being a genius, maybe there's a way I haven't thought of...

I don't think you're a bad person and I think your anger/frustration is real, just like that of a lot of folks - I just think you lack some understanding of how things work.

Something else - you mention how the population has increased. My agency has less people trying to fulfill our mission than we did in the 60's. I know of several other agencies in the same boat. Sure, some agencies may have more resources, but a lot of us have a LOT less. So anyone complaining about our level of service or efficiency or who thinks we can be "run" better should probably take that into consideration. Especially given the fact that I worked all weekend (14 hours on Saturday) to catch up on stuff which I was not allowed to do during the shutdown and I don't get overtime or any additional compensation for it.
 

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