Obama: US has always paid it's bills

Sounds like Randydaytona works for some part of the government...? This is a tough debate and though most would agree debating in a calm way without profanity or anger should be more productive, I also totally empathize with BigNuge. Like him, many citizens are simply angry; there are many reasons but if you have to simplify and say pick one; it might be the federal govt trying to centralize even more power in DC, in spite of their consistently demonstrated inability to run anything efficiently.
I had to pipe up now because respectfully Randy, if you're going to try to claim "the VA is a great organization", you're simply going to lose that argument across the board. there's just far too many stats and stories against you. Even Bob Dole tried and failed to fix the VA. However I do agree with you part of it is funding, and its hard to allocate enough funds to care for disabled soldiers who have given the ultimate sacrifice for our country, when you're paying for nearly 50 million people to use food stamps to buy liquor or designer sunglasses, plus you're giving them Obama-phones... all of which is costing a lot of money.
As for the logic that "the majority of citizens must've wanted it...", there again is another reason people are angry, because its simply not true. More and more, the govt seems to do things like Obamacare when the majority of people clearly do not want it. BO did manage to energize enough young people to vote in 2012 but keep in mind these are people that get free phones and don't even know that Obamacare and the AHCA are one in the same; see Kimmel
Like President Reagan once said: "Government isn't the solution to the problem, Government IS the problem."
 
My issue is the fact that you think your personal negative experience with the VA (when others have had positive ones, as evidenced in this very thread) and the fact that you worked on a boiler in a government building (??) makes you an authority on what the federal government is or is not doing right.

You're like every other person who likes to armchair-quarterback how the government should be run, in a perfect world. It's easy to have an opinion without understanding federal budgets, or how cutbacks, allocations, and the inevitable re-allocations affect a given government agency's mission and their ability to accomplish it (or not).

Perhaps the VA would be "better run"- if they never lost X million to cuts, forcing them to leave positions vacant...or of they never lost funding for certain programs. I don't know if any of this did or didn't happen; I'm just using the agency as an example. But as someone who's been at the receiving end of one fiscal cut after another since 9/11, I can pretty much bet most agencies feel this kind of pain on some level. Even Homeland Security has been getting cut recently, and they've traditionally had money to burn since they were created.

On top of that, you have politicians deciding that a given government agency is good or bad based purely on how it affects their own popularity, then using the media (and a healthy dose of propaganda - usually on a level that would make Josef Goebbels proud) to rally Americans for or against it. A good example was Rand Paul demonizing the Department of the Interior and trying to gut America's wildlife protection laws, simply because Gibson Guitar - a large, well-known company in a neighboring state - decided to break some laws, then whined ever-so-loudly when they got caught and were prosecuted. He wasn't successful, but caused a lot of problems for people who were just trying to do their jobs, all to make himself more popular. And it worked.

My issue is simply that you don't know what you're talking about. You're complaining because people like to complain, especially about things they don't understand and even if they don't know how to fix them. And often because others are complaining as well. And lets add some media spin to really make people mad. And that's about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.

"Everyone get off their lazy a$$." Nice plan, but not realistic and not likely to happen with what is arguably one of the laziest populations in existence.

People always say "if I ran my company the way they run the government, I'd be out of business..." Problem is, most businesses have extremely narrow missions. More often than not, they're about profit. The government's missions include protecting the country and it's people, enforcing laws, ensuring freedoms, collecting taxes and (hopefully) paying for services and the country's debts, etc. (Wayyyy overgeneralized, of course).

On top of all that, though, is trying to make 300+ million people happy. People with wildly different motivations, interpretations, and levels of understanding. I think we all agree that there's no way on earth to do that. Add in the fact that we all pay taxes and don't necessarily like it and there's reallly no way.

If the government is doing something to "pi$$ you off," it's likely because a majority of your fellow citizens favored it. Even if it were practical, you don't GET to "stop patronizing" your government for that reason. That's not how majority rule works. There are plenty of policies that I don't like, but I don't bag on the government for doing its job and implementing the will of the majority. Instead, I try to change the opinions of anyone who supports them by sharing my opposing view, albeit in a professional and non-insulting manner. The way you're talking about "liberal"- this and "liberal"-that, as if it's a dirty word, shows me that you've decided not to take that approach. There's a lot more anger than rationalism there, I think, because you don't strike me as a stupid person. While most people seem to be willing to listen to a differing point of view, most will also simply shut down and ignore you when you come at them with this kind of attitude. Imagine someone at work offering up an idea in a roomful of co-workers and someone immediately opposes it by calling them a "bleeding-heart liberal pu$$y..."

Personally, I'm neither a democrat nor a republican, but I DO consider myself "liberal" - not in the insult/political/bashing sense that's commonly all-too-frequently used, but in the fact that I consider myself willing to listen to an opposing view. Because you never know: a different way may work better. And not being a genius, maybe there's a way I haven't thought of...

I don't think you're a bad person and I think your anger/frustration is real, just like that of a lot of folks - I just think you lack some understanding of how things work.

Something else - you mention how the population has increased. My agency has less people trying to fulfill our mission than we did in the 60's. I know of several other agencies in the same boat. Sure, some agencies may have more resources, but a lot of us have a LOT less. So anyone complaining about our level of service or efficiency or who thinks we can be "run" better should probably take that into consideration. Especially given the fact that I worked all weekend (14 hours on Saturday) to catch up on stuff which I was not allowed to do during the shutdown and I don't get overtime or any additional compensation for it.

If, after reading all of this thread, you think that my assessment of the governments performance is based solely on how the VA operates then we have nothing more to discuss. Reducing my dealings & understanding of the VA down to "worked on a boiler once" is both insulting and inaccurate. Here is the difference, I can take it (unlike when I use "liberal" in an unpleasant manner, sending every one of them whining to no end about not being sensitive).

Coincidentally, I too think you are an intelligent person. However, your opinions & objections are clearly related to your employment. It can be difficult to be unbiased & objective in your position, I get that.

I'll be the first to admit that my frustration can get the best of me. I use the descriptors like Liberal/Socialist/Communist to identify & accentuate our polarizing differences in opinion, often in a closing remark/fashion for exclamation. Please do use "Conservative" to describe me, I'll be the first to agree!

We (the conservative base that this country is built on) have been quiet for far too long, kowtowing to the progressive/overly sensitive BS. Candy-coating everything as not to upset somebody. I'm calling it, and I'm done with it.

While I would welcome a good bit of banter/discussion in person regarding politics & the government, I am done with this thread. It's all out there in the previous pages & posts. I have, in plain logic, explained how I have arrived at my understanding of things.

Not one person has offered compelling evidence that what I have said is not true, and I know why....

From the LAST General to GET IT DONE!!! And I know why that is too......

y8azybap.jpg


A disturbing FACT......

yzubeja2.jpg
 
We (the conservative base that this country is built on)

I would reiterate my earlier post which demonstrated that the biggest contributors to the economic base are democratic states, while the vast majority of the 'takers' are conservative states... Just the facts.



Not sure if you were being facetious or not but as was also pointed out earlier belittling people with opposing views as "the lowest form of life on earth" is not the best way to get your point across.

If you have time, this is an interesting read that reminded me of this thread (and most political discussions): 5 Logical Fallacies That Make You Wrong More Than You Think | Cracked.com
 
I would reiterate my earlier post which demonstrated that the biggest contributors to the economic base are democratic states, while the vast majority of the 'takers' are conservative states... Just the facts.




Not sure if you were being facetious or not but as was also pointed out earlier belittling people with opposing views as "the lowest form of life on earth" is not the best way to get your point across.

If you have time, this is an interesting read that reminded me of this thread (and most political discussions): 5 Logical Fallacies That Make You Wrong More Than You Think | Cracked.com

Unfortunately weak is weak, and has no political affiliation. A lot of good people succumb to the "poor me" or the "give me". There are not enough folks willing to take responsibility for their own lives. The liberal welfare system has paved the way for complacency and statism. It has destroyed the fabric that used to hold this country together. Imagine how many people simply would not know what to do, or how to sustain if welfare went away!! And the liberal wants to keep this system going.....

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"

Liberals want to just keep taking my hard earned money and buy the other HALF of the country fish. Conservatives simply want people to fish for themselves.

Also, declaring a state "Conservative" or "Liberal" simply means more Conservative or Liberal voters came out to the polls during an election, that's it. I know because I live in what would appear a blue state. I can assure you, NH is NOT a blue state. However, we are being invaded more and more by northern MA residents (Poor Maine has it 10 times worse).

The irony, these people move here for the NH (Conservative) way of life. As soon as they get here they immediately start trying to change it, in the ruse of making it "better". I have specific knowledge and experience with this as I live in a southern NH town, with a new (5 year old) development right across the street. Want to venture a guess as to how many of those units were sold to a MA (very liberal) transplant?? Out of 29 units, only 3 were bought by NH residents. Over the last 5 years we have been approached by 16 of the MA transplants. All in an effort to try and enforce the protective covenants they have on their side of the street (no HD diesel trucks, no trailers of any kind-I own a 23' camper as well as a 14' fishing boat....the list goes on). Suffice to say that their efforts are in vain, I am NOT subject to their PC's. They do pitch a fit though, and I LOVE IT!!

Moral of the story, the liberal will do/say anything to get their way, to push their ideals, take any/everything they want to create their own little bubble. Kids can't even play tag in Nashua NH?!?!?!?!? A PRIME example of the liberal attempt at the perfect world "bubble". I have a million of them (well, maybe not a "million" big you get the point.

Me, I don't care what you do, I don't care what you say, I don't care how you raise your kids (to an extent, this is where common sense, another great American quality that has been torn away by the liberal/progressive, would come into play) or lead your life. I just want to keep what I earn, raise my family, and enjoy my short time here on Gods earth.

You don't have to, nor do I desire to force anyone to do what I do, live how I live. However, if you are forced to turn to your government to push/enforce your ideals, if you willingly/knowingly/repeatedly take from the hand that provides without taking pause for though towards the hand that provided it, then you and your system has failed (yes, welfare as we know it is a liberal system). And this happens millions of times a day - "just a fact"

I want nothing from a liberal, but they sure want something from me.



Lastly, that is a quote from General George Patton, the last General to truly GET IT DONE in war. I was sort of using the quote to bolster my claim that liberal ideals have been eroding the foundation of this country since WWII, because I truly feel they have. Every single conflict following WWII has been for profit or power. Pushing our ideals and way of life on societies that have their own way of doing things is at the very heart of the liberal/progressive movement, and is NOT the American way. Liberals have pushed us into conflicts to play the role of global police, global welfare, global power. Don't confuse political parties with Conservative values. Just because someone is a Republican does NOT mean they are Conservative. The same can be said for a Democrat (my wife is a Democrat BTW), they are not all true Liberals.
 
Me, I don't care what you do, I don't care what you say, I don't care how you raise your kids (to an extent, this is where common sense, another great American quality that has been torn away by the liberal/progressive, would come into play) or lead your life. I just want to keep what I earn, raise my family, and enjoy my short time here on Gods earth.

Yes you do, it completely twists you inside to think that things aren’t going your way, or that people are actually living a life different than your own. It shows in your posts. And the fact that you would claim that common sense is an "American" quality betrays the blinders you wear.

You can't even make the above statement without adding a caveat, "to an extent". You and those like you need to feel in control, and when you don't and you feel like you don't get your way, or your “team” is losing, you stomp your feet, regurgitate old rhetoric, falsely categorize people to alienate and attempt to discredit them (I.E. “liberal, progressive, communist, socialist etc etc etc) and then stomp your feet some more.

It’s funny that you bang the drum of patriotism and tout someone like General Patton too. Here is another quote from Patton

“If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking”

But as you have pointed out, you would much rather we all fall into the rank and file of your ideology right? Because it’s right, and it’s just and it’s everything a “god” fearing American should want out of life? Wake up man. If you don’t like it, work to change it (really work, get involved, lobby, etc… not just sit and call people names) or pack up and move to where things are so much better…… either will do.
 
Eta: @ Nuge

Your stereotypical conservative ideologues don't trump liberal ones simply because you say they do and that mindset only serves to perpetuate a divide that is harmful to everyone.

There was a lot of truth to Obama's pithy slogans, shame he never stayed the course.
 
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Yes you do, it completely twists you inside to think that things aren’t going your way, or that people are actually living a life different than your own. It shows in your posts. And the fact that you would claim that common sense is an "American" quality betrays the blinders you wear.

You can't even make the above statement without adding a caveat, "to an extent". You and those like you need to feel in control, and when you don't and you feel like you don't get your way, or your “team” is losing, you stomp your feet, regurgitate old rhetoric, falsely categorize people to alienate and attempt to discredit them (I.E. “liberal, progressive, communist, socialist etc etc etc) and then stomp your feet some more.

It’s funny that you bang the drum of patriotism and tout someone like General Patton too. Here is another quote from Patton

“If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking”

But as you have pointed out, you would much rather we all fall into the rank and file of your ideology right? Because it’s right, and it’s just and it’s everything a “god” fearing American should want out of life? Wake up man. If you don’t like it, work to change it (really work, get involved, lobby, etc… not just sit and call people names) or pack up and move to where things are so much better…… either will do.

what I took away from what he said was...."you do what you're going to do, and i'll do what im going to do."

but instead one group is trying to force the other group to do things their way.

im with him, I don't give a shit who/what/where you do something, UNTIL it affects me. you want things a certain way, that's fine. you want ME to pay for it? that's NOT fine.
 
what I took away from what he said was...."you do what you're going to do, and i'll do what im going to do."

but instead one group is trying to force the other group to do things their way.

im with him, I don't give a shit who/what/where you do something, UNTIL it affects me. you want things a certain way, that's fine. you want ME to pay for it? that's NOT fine.

This is my point though. Everyone loves being an american until they dont get thier way. All of a sudden when it no longer benefits certain people they say it is "un-american" and "destroying our country" Thats not how it works.

Ps. I hate the Government as much as the next guy, but I also realize that its not all about me.
 
This is my point though. Everyone loves being an american until they dont get thier way. All of a sudden when it no longer benefits certain people they say it is "un-american" and "destroying our country" Thats not how it works.

Ps. I hate the Government as much as the next guy, but I also realize that its not all about me.

that's not whats going on though.

we're ****ing pissed off because we're having to SUPPORT the rest of the country. they are trying to change things how they want it, on OUR dime.
 
that's not whats going on though.

we're ****ing pissed off because we're having to SUPPORT the rest of the country. they are trying to change things how they want it, on OUR dime.

How is that NOT what’s happening? You don't agree with having to pay for the group? You are part of the group. If you leave the group you wouldn’t have to pay.


And the "they" you refer to is only a "they" because you don't agree otherwise it would be a "We".

It should always be a "WE" is my point. The division and separation does nothing to help us as a nation. We don't all have to agree but we all have to share the load to some degree. Otherwise all it does is allow the gap to increase.

Like I said, everyone loves to be American until the bill shows up.
 
Yes you do, it completely twists you inside to think that things aren’t going your way, or that people are actually living a life different than your own. It shows in your posts. And the fact that you would claim that common sense is an "American" quality betrays the blinders you wear.

You can't even make the above statement without adding a caveat, "to an extent". You and those like you need to feel in control, and when you don't and you feel like you don't get your way, or your “team” is losing, you stomp your feet, regurgitate old rhetoric, falsely categorize people to alienate and attempt to discredit them (I.E. “liberal, progressive, communist, socialist etc etc etc) and then stomp your feet some more.

It’s funny that you bang the drum of patriotism and tout someone like General Patton too. Here is another quote from Patton

“If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking”

But as you have pointed out, you would much rather we all fall into the rank and file of your ideology right? Because it’s right, and it’s just and it’s everything a “god” fearing American should want out of life? Wake up man. If you don’t like it, work to change it (really work, get involved, lobby, etc… not just sit and call people names) or pack up and move to where things are so much better…… either will do.

I knew someone would grab onto that statement, and thats OK. It shows that I am aware, and accept that all of us are different. Common sense applies to everybody, it is what is SUPPOSED to connect us when we are not really connected (hence the "COMMON"). Rhetoric & BS have distorted this very important quality. Having and using common sense IS an American quality. It WAS a quality that contributed to the greatness of us as a Nation and as a people. We didn't unite because we were all the same, that is not possible. We united in a unilateral belief that Life Liberty and the freedom to pursue happiness were our COMMON goals. One person could desire to be a cook, live in Kentucky, and raise pigs. Another can play an instrument, live in Texas, love to hunt wild boar.....who cares as long as they are supporting themselves. Common sense can be part of another countries qualities too, have at it. I did not intend for you to take it as it is an exclusively American quality. See, you are not even using common sense when reading my responses. How are you not making that distinction????? How are you not making the distinction that when I say "to an extent" that I mean "If I see you beating the shit out of your wife or kid I'm going to get involved"???? These are rhetorical questions BTW.....It's because you are NOT USING COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!

We are not all the same, I get this. We all do not think the same, I get this. I do not expect anything more than everyone to pull their weight, do SOMETHING productive.

Now if you take what I have written and twist it out of context then you only further solidify my point. We are no longer connected by good solid common sense. Therefore, I will no longer stand by and just "take" what is dealt to me by the government. I've been doing that for far too long.

Eta: @ Nuge

Your stereotypical conservative ideologues don't trump liberal ones simply because you say they do and that mindset only serves to perpetuate a divide that is harmful to everyone.

There was a lot of truth to Obama's pithy slogans, shame he never stayed the course.

Ah, and your the authority in the matter then? A nice attempt at baiting, even bringing your King into it........:hail:

Divide, we divided a long time ago. The problem is that all of the hippies from the 60's are now all grown up. Guess what, they're ALL still out to lunch. We are never going to be sitting around the camp fire singing Kum ba yah. Unfortunately they are all headed into retirement, or already on SS Disability for their disabilities caused by their prolific drug abuse. And now, I have to pay for them too (SS is running out of $$ BTW).

what I took away from what he said was...."you do what you're going to do, and i'll do what im going to do."

but instead one group is trying to force the other group to do things their way.

im with him, I don't give a shit who/what/where you do something, UNTIL it affects me. you want things a certain way, that's fine. you want ME to pay for it? that's NOT fine.

Exactly....how difficult was that???

This is my point though. Everyone loves being an american until they dont get thier way. All of a sudden when it no longer benefits certain people they say it is "un-american" and "destroying our country" Thats not how it works.

Ps. I hate the Government as much as the next guy, but I also realize that its not all about me.

Ugh, I just don't get the strange angles. "Don't get my way"?? I just want all of us to give a shit and pull our own weight. THATS THE MESSAGE HERE, and you STILL DONT GET IT?!?!?!?!?

that's not whats going on though.

we're ****ing pissed off because we're having to SUPPORT the rest of the country. they are trying to change things how they want it, on OUR dime.

Yes......Again.

How is that NOT what’s happening? You don't agree with having to pay for the group? You are part of the group. If you leave the group you wouldn’t have to pay.


And the "they" you refer to is only a "they" because you don't agree otherwise it would be a "We".

It should always be a "WE" is my point. The division and separation does nothing to help us as a nation. We don't all have to agree but we all have to share the load to some degree. Otherwise all it does is allow the gap to increase.

Like I said, everyone loves to be American until the bill shows up.

Now here is something. I AGREE that it should always be "We"!! Additionally, I understand and agree that sharing the load is PIVOTAL to our continued survival.

And you break way off with the last statement again......

Half the country on the dole, US maintaining a global police force, Federal & state governments dictating how I raise my kids & run my life, all the while taking over 30% of my hard earned pay as well as a piece of almost EVERYTHING I spend......COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT!!!!

And every time I turn around it's MORE MORE MORE.......More money, more laws, more overreaching government bullshit. Guess what, next year it'll be more still.....
 
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How is that NOT what’s happening? You don't agree with having to pay for the group? You are part of the group. If you leave the group you wouldn’t have to pay.


And the "they" you refer to is only a "they" because you don't agree otherwise it would be a "We".

It should always be a "WE" is my point. The division and separation does nothing to help us as a nation. We don't all have to agree but we all have to share the load to some degree. Otherwise all it does is allow the gap to increase.

Like I said, everyone loves to be American until the bill shows up.
its not happening, because one half isn't trying to dictate what the other half does, with their money/time/lives/etc.
you cant say that for both sides.



and you're right, we should all be sharing the load, the problem is, that's NOT whats happening. the side that is trying to dictate what we do is ALSO not pulling their own weight.

and it is they, and not WE, because the rest of us are fed up. enough is enough.
 
How people cling to the idea that the Republican party is the party of fiscal responsibility eludes me entirely. The last three Republican Presidents have cut taxes while dramatically increasing spending; the debt skyrocketed accordingly, and it did so mostly during periods of economic expansion, when there was no excuse for such recklessness. Had they been as fiscally responsible as Jimmy Carter (!) and Bill Clinton, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Obama has run up the debt, to be sure. But a huge part of the reason it's as high as it is is the Republican aversion to arithmetic. Tax and spend will produce a balanced budget; so will cut and save. Cut and spend simply does not. The only reason it makes sense is that politicians know they can pass on the damage to the next guy, and their partisan allies will reliably blame him rather than them.

In other words, we get the government we deserve.
 
How people cling to the idea that the Republican party is the party of fiscal responsibility eludes me entirely. The last three Republican Presidents have cut taxes while dramatically increasing spending; the debt skyrocketed accordingly, and it did so mostly during periods of economic expansion, when there was no excuse for such recklessness. Had they been as fiscally responsible as Jimmy Carter (!) and Bill Clinton, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Obama has run up the debt, to be sure. But a huge part of the reason it's as high as it is is the Republican aversion to arithmetic. Tax and spend will produce a balanced budget; so will cut and save. Cut and spend simply does not. The only reason it makes sense is that politicians know they can pass on the damage to the next guy, and their partisan allies will reliably blame him rather than them.

In other words, we get the government we deserve.

Nice, another redirect. You pulled this from the statement that we simply want folks to pull their own weight?? Or did you pull that out of thin air??

In any even, I do not feel the Republican party is any more fiscally responsible (especially following the latest debit ceiling increase) than the Democrats. The entire system is fraught with corruption and profiteering. Rarely do I feel any decision is made in the federal government that truly doesn't benefit the person/party first. I think a great tool would be eliminating all corporate campaign contributions, establishing strict term limits for ALL elected officials, and complete transparency of elected officials' income during their terms in office. Figure out how they are getting paid and who is paying them, you will quickly route out the scumbags. As it is now, even if there are a few good folks in Washington (I have to believe that there are at least a few good folks there) they get out spent and pushed aside by the long term old dogs....
 
Tsk tsk.....

When you make arrogant and juvenile statements like:



The rational person doesn't dwell and moves on.

:crazy:

So I talked to some people once and they said their bills were like going up or something so I'm against Obamacare.

In fact I base all my positions on random anecdotes.

God bless.

Do you have anything genuine to add, or are you simply here to entertain us with more hypocritical statements?

I'm pretty well adapted to the rank-and-file liberal, you're right on par.

Aaaand, if you're still here commenting does that mean you're not rational?

:whistle:
 
read this:


Sufficient Reason - Dear Liberal?Here?s Why I?m So Hostile


Lately, I must admit that my hostility towards your political ilk has ramped up, pretty dramatically. No, it’s not because we, at this point in my life, have a half-black president in the White House, and I’m some closet racist who is becoming increasingly frustrated at the prospects of the White Man’s power slipping through my fingers. I know that thought keeps you warm at night, but I can assure you that it is a comfortable fiction of which you should probably divest yourself.

Now before I waste too much of your time, let’s establish who I’m talking to. If you believe that we live in an evil, imperialist nation from its founding, and you believe that it should be “fundamentally transformed”, lend me your ears. If you believe that the free market is the source of the vast majority of society’s ills and wish to have more government intervention into it, I’m talking to you. If you believe that health care is a basic human right and that government should provide it to everyone, you’re the guy I’m screaming at. If you think minorities cannot possibly survive in this inherently racist country without handouts and government mandated diversity quotas, you’re my guy. If you believe that rich people are that way because they’ve exploited their workers and acquired wealth on the backs of the poor, keep reading. Pretty much, if you trust government more than your fellow American, this post is for you.

First of all, let me say that we probably agree on more things than you think. Even between Tea Party Patriots and Occupy Wall-Streeters, I’ve observed a common hatred of the insidious alliance between big business and big government. As Representative Paul Ryan (R-WI) so correctly noted, government should never be in the business of picking winners and losers in corporate America, and no person, organization, union, or corporation should have their own key to the back door of our government.

Second, contrary to popular belief, conservatives really are concerned with the plight of the poor in this nation. You accuse us of being uncompassionate, hateful, racist, and greedy, but studies have shown that when it comes to charitable giving, conservatives are at least (if not more, depending on the study you read) as generous as liberals in caring for the poor. The difference between us is not in our attitude towards the problem — it’s our attitude towards the solution. We believe that the government does practically nothing well (since without competition or a profit motive there is no incentive to do well) and has made the plight of the poor far worse than it would have ever been had government never gotten involved. For a stark example of this, look no farther than the condition of the black family in America since the “War on Poverty” began. You believe that more government is the answer, and that if we only throw more money at the problem, the problem will go away. We believe, as Reagan so aptly stated,



Government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem.

Third, as people who might actually have to avail ourselves of a doctor’s services at some point in our lives, we are just as concerned with the condition of America’s healthcare system as you are. While we believe that America has the world’s most capable physicians, has the world’s most innovative pharmaceutical industry, and is on the cutting edge of medical technology, we also understand that the delivery system is far from perfect. However, unlike you, we see a grave danger in turning the administration of that delivery system over to the same entity that is responsible for giving us the United States Postal Service. There are private sector solutions that should certainly be explored before we kill the system, altogether, by giving it to the government to run.

Now that we’ve touched on a couple of points of common ground, allow me to explain my aggressiveness towards your efforts to implement your progressive agenda. First, let’s talk about the word “progressive”, since you now seem to prefer that word to “liberal”. In order to label something as progressive or regressive, one must have some idea as to what constitutes progress. What is the ideal towards which you are striving? An idea is considered progressive if it moves us closer to the ideal and regressive if it moves us further away. So, what is your ideal society?

Though I can’t begin to discern the thoughts of every liberal who may read this, nor can I assume that every liberal has the same notion of an ideal society, in my arguments with liberals over the years, I couldn’t help but notice the influence that FDR’s Second Bill of Rights has had in shaping the beliefs of the modern liberal with regards to domestic policy. The rights that FDR cited are:
•The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
•The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
•The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
•The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
•The right of every family to a decent home;
•The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
•The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
•The right to a good education.

At this point, you’re probably screaming, “Right on!!”, and who can blame you? What sane person in the world doesn’t want everyone to be gainfully employed, adequately fed, smartly clothed, appropriately sheltered, and properly educated? These are the goals of every moral society on the planet, however we cannot ignore the fundamental question of, “At what cost?”

I’m not sure whether FDR was a shallow thinker or simply a shrewd, Machiavellian politician, but the fact that he framed each of these ideals as a human right should be troubling to every freedom-loving person in America. After all, what does it mean for something to be a human right? Doesn’t it mean that it’s something to which you are entitled simply by virtue of your being human? Let’s think about some of the basic rights that the real Bill of Rights delineates: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to petition the government, freedom to bear arms, freedom from illegal search and seizure, etc.

If you’re moderately intelligent and intellectually honest, you’ll quickly see what separates the rights laid out in the real Bill of Rights from those laid out in FDR’s misguided list — none of the rights listed above require the time, treasure, or talents of another human being. Your right to speak requires nothing from anyone else. Your right to practice your religion requires nothing from any of your fellow citizens. Your right to bear arms means that you are allowed to possess weapons to defend yourself and your family, but it makes no demand that a weapon be provided to you by anyone. A true human right is one that you possess, even if you’re the only person on the entire planet — and it is unconditional.

FDR’s list is no “Bill of Rights”. It’s a list of demands. If I have a right to a job, doesn’t that mean that one must be provided to me? If I have a right to adequate food, clothing, and recreation, doesn’t that mean that I am entitled to those things, and someone should provide them to me? If I have an inherent right to a decent home, once again, doesn’t that mean it should be provided to me, regardless of my ability to afford one or build one for myself?

You might protest that FDR only meant that we have the right to pursue those things, but that’s not what he said, and why would he? If we live in a free society, our right to pursue those things is self-evident, is it not? Besides, if he only believed in our right to pursue those things, he would not have felt the need to implement the New Deal.

You may be getting anxious, now, wondering what FDR’s Second Bill of Rights has to do with my antipathy towards your political philosophy. It’s quite simple — your political beliefs are a threat to liberty — not just for me, but for my three boys and their children as well. I care much less about the America that I’m living in at this very moment than I do about the one that I’m leaving Nathaniel, Charlie, and Jackson.

How does your political bent threaten my and my sons personal liberty, you ask? In your irrational attempt to classify things such as clothing, shelter, health care, employment, and income as basic human rights, you are placing a demand upon my time, my treasure, and my talents. If you believe that you have a right to health care, and you are successful in persuading enough shallow thinkers to think as you do, then it will place a demand upon me to provide it to you. If you believe that you have a right to a job, and more than half of America agrees with you, as a business owner, I am obligated to provide one to you, even if it means making my business less profitable.

The fact is, you can rail against my conservatism all you wish. You can make fun of my Tea Party gatherings, and you can ridicule patriots in tri-corner hats until you wet yourself from mirth, but one thing is for certain: my political philosophy will NEVER be a threat to your freedom. If you feel a burning responsibility to the poor, conservatism will never prevent you from working 80 hours per week and donating all of your income to charity. If you feel a strong sense of pity for a family who cannot afford health insurance, my political philosophy will never prevent you from purchasing health insurance for this family or raising money to do so, if you cannot afford it, personally. If you are moved with compassion for a family who is homeless, a conservative will never use the police power of government to prevent you from taking that family in to your own home or mobilizing your community to build one for them.

However, you cannot say the same for liberalism. If I choose not to give to the poor for whatever reason, you won’t simply try to persuade me on the merits of the idea — you will seek to use the government as an instrument of plunder to force me to give to the poor. If we are walking down the street together and we spot a homeless person, using this logic, you would not simply be content with giving him $20 from your own pocket — you would hold a gun to my head and force me to give him $20, as well.

Everything that modern liberalism accomplishes is accomplished at the barrel of a government rifle. You do not trust in the generosity of the American people to provide, through private charity, things such as clothing, food, shelter, and health care, so you empower the government to take from them and spend the money on wasteful, inefficient, and inadequate government entitlement programs. You do not trust in the personal responsibility of the average American to wield firearms in defense of themselves and their families, so you seek to empower the government to criminalize the use and possession of firearms by private citizens. Everytime you empower the government, you lose more of your personal liberty — it’s an axiomatic truth.

What angers me the most about you is the eagerness with which you allow the incremental enslavement to occur. You are the cliched and proverbial frog in the pot who has actually convinced himself that he’s discovered a big, silver jacuzzi. Somehow, you’re naive enough to believe that one more degree of heat won’t really matter that much.

I have the utmost respect for a slave who is continuously seeking a path to freedom. What I cannot stomach is a free man who is continuous seeking a path to servitude by willingly trading his freedom for the false sense of security that government will provide.

I am reminded of Samuel Adams’ impassioned speech where he stated:



“If ye love wealth (or security) better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”

Servitude can exist in a free society, but freedom cannot exist in a slave nation. In a free country, you have the liberty to join with others of your political ilk and realize whatever collectivist ideals you can dream up. You can start your own little commune where the sign at the front gate says, “From each according to his ability; to each according to his need”, and everyone can work for the mutual benefit of everyone else. In my society, you have the freedom to do that.

In your society, I don’t have the same freedom. If your collectivism offends me, I am not free to start my own free society within its borders. In order for collectivism to work, everyone must be on board, even those who oppose it — why do you think there was a Berlin Wall?

In conclusion, just know that the harder you push to enact your agenda, the more hostile I will become — the harder I will fight you. It’s nothing personal, necessarily. If you want to become a slave to an all-powerful central government, be my guest. But if you are planning to take me and my family down with you, as we say down here in the South, I will stomp a mud-hole in your chest and walk it dry.

Bring it.
 
Tsk tsk.....



:crazy:



Do you have anything genuine to add, or are you simply here to entertain us with more hypocritical statements?

I'm pretty well adapted to the rank-and-file liberal, you're right on par.

Aaaand, if you're still here commenting does that mean you're not rational?

:whistle:

I think the difference between my comments and yours are that mine are funny and lighthearted while yours are ignorant and as Nevada has so perfectly pointed out, hostile.

The party of "hostility." It sounds so hopeful and free, a real united America! Where can I sign up? Guns and jesus baby, let's take this country back to the way it was when it was good, yeeeeehaw!
 

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