OEM Brakes are terriable

[ChaosStarter]

To the Toyota service techs: there was once a day when dealerships had technicians that would diagnose issues without computers without SB's without machines. They were considered technicians, you guys are part changers, you read a SB dealing with related symptoms then you go start changing out parts until the problem goes away... oh that's technical all right.. your ASE certification doesnt mean ****, your years of reading SB's means nothing. You work for a flat rate book in which charges I or any other customer for a certain number of hours per job yet you line jobs up side by side to get them done as quick as possible you care nothing about the quality of work you provide of if the problem even gets fixed only how many hours you can rack up in a days work. yeah there may be a few Toyota Techs out there that actually do care and thank you to those ladies and gentlemen that take there jobs to that extra level of ensuring quality service.

I've explained everything I've had to while only going to the training manual once to prove a point. You're right, we didn't have all these computers to help us diagnose 10-15 years ago. We (and still do) have repair manuals for every car and every year it's out. Now, they're just online making it quicker to access. You still have tests to perform. If I see a car with an oxygen sensor heater circuit code, I don't just assume it's the internal element that's fried and replace the O2, I test for power and ground to make sure the rest of the circuit is working properly on every single one.

You know why we have to line jobs up? Because they don't pay ****, and when you work on commission, what choice do you have? Sit around and hope work comes to you and it's all gravy? Or bust your ass on multiple cars and make a decent paycheck?

I'm proud of everything I do at work. I treat customers like family and my CSI scores are proof of it with one of the highest in the dealership (I believe I'm around a 95% for about 80 surveys). I take care of my them. I don't belittle people (as others have done in this thread). I talk to them and try to explain things to them the best I can, just as I have done so here, which no one can deny. If you don't want to listen, that's fine. I could care less. I'm fine with everyone working on their own cars anyway, less headaches for me to deal with.

I would like.... no, LOVE for some of you guys who think this job is so ****ing easy to come do it for a week. See what kind of b.s. you have to deal with, see what kind of customers you have to deal with. I will even help you out with things because I'm not getting fired for something you **** up (you're not borrowing my tools though). Come try to rebuild a 4cyl motor in the time Toyota gives us, I know I can, can you? I'll put money on it that you can't.....and when you can't, that's money that you're losing out of your pocket. I've seen a lot of people come through this industry because they love cars and want to work on them every day, and then they can't handle it, not one bit. We have 25-30 techs in our dealer, most have been here 10-15 years. Some, I wouldn't trust to work on my own car personally, but I'm picky.

 

[ChaosStarter]

Because it's NOT being logical. MOST people do NOT get their vehicles serviced at the dealer. Not some..but MOST. Some people will buy a used vehicle and take it to the dealer to get serviced....Just based on the simple math....changes are you more likely to see non oem parts as opposed to oem parts.

I guess it depends on the dealer. A lot of customers know me by name, and request me specifically. I'd say 85-90% of the cars I work on, are completely Toyota serviced, with the exception of tires mostly (we're not cheap on that, I'll admit it).

 

[aha2988]

this thread is not titled "what are your certifications" or "what do you do for money"

the OP wanted info on brakes and I believe he got plenty unfortunately he will have to read through 5 pages of y'alls BS

 

[ChaosStarter]

this thread is not titled "what are your certifications" or "what do you do for money"

the OP wanted info on brakes and I believe he got plenty unfortunately he will have to read through 5 pages of y'alls BS

You're right. I was merely defending a possibility that I suggested from the get-go. Not a end-all/be-all solution.

To the OP, sorry for all the b.s. Good luck with your repair.

 

[Sungod]

this thread is not titled "what are your certifications" or "what do you do for money"

the OP wanted info on brakes and I believe he got plenty unfortunately he will have to read through 5 pages of y'alls BS

Shut it boy. We are gettin a lesson from the dealer tech who mysteriously did no work today. I am cleaning my shims right now. My turn signal is running a little slow, I wonder if he has any ideas how I can fix it.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I will add that Toyota does have a TSB out for the pedal shims developing rust. (TSB's anot fix-alls anyways, they are just a document stating that they have had enough of the same complaint with the same failure and they have a corrected part or procedure to fix the problem. I think too many people assume TSBs will automatically fix your car, think of them more as Stickied threads on commonly asked crap or a good fix thread we have on our forms.) Now, I've never seen the issue that Toyota describes in its TSB and honestly, I could see how it could cause inconsistent brake pedal feel, but not consistently soggy pedal feel with little to no actual brake feel.

I had a soggy pedal in my 4Runner and it turned out the master cylinder portion of the Hydraboost System was starting to fail. ($2600 is actually what we charged the Warranty Company for the part, but I found it online for $1800). That's not to say that it couldn't be something else, but that is what I found with my vehicle. As for the brake pads causing spongey feel? I find that hard to believe, I would believe inconsistent pedal feel, but a constantly soggy pedal just doesn't seem to add up. I don't see modern brake lines swelling like their old counterparts did, many of these lines are steel walled or kevlar walled anyways. I would suggest a brake fluid flush, inspecting the rotors for hard spots and possible gassing of the pads if you are not using a quality pad.

As for comments made in regards to Dealer technicans and Backyard mechanics... Really? Simply put, many guys screw their cars up trying to work in their garages. Modern cars are not as easy to diagnose or ven repair withot expensive and complex tools and knowledge. Even with those tools and training you can still screw it up. Dealer technicans these days ARE parts replacers, due to the flat rate system that we are paid by and because the factory doesn't really want us to waste time tearing things apart. I've seen at least a dozen or two 4 cylinder engine blocks lying around for scrap because we found a spun or worn bearing. Yes... the factory had us replace an entire block because of one bearing, rather than replacing them and remachining the block like any reputable engine shop would do. Now I won't speak for all the technicans, but I can tell you that I do put an effort to look for problems and verify them before replacing parts.

Unfortunetly, some things cannot be tested, or the factory has not provided us information on how to test a component (hydraboost units for example, are diagnosed by process of eliminating the rest of thebrake parts according to factory support). But I can tell you right now, it is not like 20 years ago, if you think you can diagnose modern cars the same way you diagnosed your Chevy Big Block you are sorely mistaken. The networking and computer controls on these vehicles can cause problems that you will EASILY mistake for something else and have you running around in circles for days. Not to mention that when you do find what component is failing/failed and replace it, you'll probably need to get the damned thing reprogrammed.

To wrap up the rant here. I'm not defending anyone, nor am I attacking anyone. I am just telling you that if you think you can fix a modern OBDII CAN car/truck with just socket set and a test light, you are very very wrong. These days, technicans need to understand not only electrical theory, but basic computer functionality and networking to understand how these cars work, let alone try and fix them.

 

[ChaosStarter]

Shut it boy. We are gettin a lesson from the dealer tech who mysteriously did no work today. I am cleaning my shims right now. My turn signal is running a little slow, I wonder if he has any ideas how I can fix it.

I just said it was slow, not that I did no work. I barely made 10 hours today unfortunately. Thanks though. And you might want to check your blinker fluid.

 

[08t4rlimited]

Well put thanks!

to the op, a fluid flush should do the trick. When brake fluid (if/when) reaches a boiling temp or over heats the chemical composition of the fluid brakes down becoming "spongy, soft, slightly compressible" (which ever term you'd like to use).

The fluid can reach these temperatures by a few different causes, one being the commonly found on our runners a frozen caliper piston(s). Without the caliper piston being capable of retracting into the caliper housing it's obviously going to stay compressed to the pad keeping the pad slightly compressed to the rotor in turn causing lots of heat to build inside the caliper breaking down your brake fluid.

Also lots of stop and go driving (like driving up to 40 then stoping real fast) over an over an over with in short time periods.

As well the brake fluid as any chemical composition has a half life in which it naturally brakes down over time. Once the chemical composition of the brake fluid is compromised it no longer has the same compression abilities, or in other words the fluid becomes slightly compressible in effect giving your pedal a "soft or spongy" feel. Between new brake pads and perhaps replacing or resurfacing your rotors you'll be fine (any one of your choices will do fine oem is a ceramic pad your only other option would be a semi-metallic brake pad which will increase stoping power however the life of the pad is shortened the semi-metallic's are best when doing a lot of towing only cons of the semi metallic are shorter life than ceramic and increased wheel brake dust)

to the toyota service techs: There was once a day when dealerships had technicians that would diagnose issues without computers without sb's without machines. They were considered technicians, you guys are part changers, you read a sb dealing with related symptoms then you go start changing out parts until the problem goes away... Oh that's technical all right.. Your ase certification doesnt mean ****, your years of reading sb's means nothing. You work for a flat rate book in which charges i or any other customer for a certain number of hours per job yet you line jobs up side by side to get them done as quick as possible you care nothing about the quality of work you provide of if the problem even gets fixed only how many hours you can rack up in a days work. Yeah there may be a few toyota techs out there that actually do care and thank you to those ladies and gentlemen that take there jobs to that extra level of ensuring quality service.

Which ever one of you thinks that brake pad selection has anything to do with a spongy pedal.. Ignore the tsb and use your brain. What kind of pad out there is going to increase pedal travel?

Which ever one of you thinks that rusted shims increase pedal travel.. Those shims are maybe a 32nd of an inch thick... This does not justify an inch or more of extra brake pedal travel.. Again think about it..

Yes it could be air in the line however if its a 4th gen and the ecu is working properly the abs system senses air in the brake lines and indicates a problem with an abs light on the dash.. Also each wheel has its own individual brake line coming form the hydraulic control unit encase air does compromise a wheels brake the other brake lines aren't effected and braking can still be manageable.

Whoever thinks its a brake line "swelling?" and thinks that toyota or any other automotive manufacturer actually puts plain rubber hoses in there brake line circuits, your crazy. 4th gens have hydro assisted brake systems with an actuator canister that release crazy amounts of pressure to the hydraulic control unit, the only type of lines you'll find in that system are a.) metal or b.) flexible hose with either single wire or 2 wire steel reinforced walls.

All in all :nicethread: Crazy trollers

 

[08t4rlimited]

I'm very happy with my Brembo's. You cannot compare a small sports sedan to a heavy, 4WD truck.

I wrote that in my second post. I do not expect my 4runr to stop as quickly as quickly as the 335i. I just want a good bite, without applying excessive pressure to the pedal.

 

[08t4rlimited]

I must say, I thought the arrogant bickering on the BMW forums were bad....at least on this forum there is just bickering.

Btw I am NASA-certified underwater certified Toyota tech :repuke:

Thanks for all the discussion and comments!