Official 4Runner VS Raptor - Apples VS Oranges Thread

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1engineer said:
Alright, that time again apparently lol. If you want this thread locked then like the post above this one. If it gets 15 likes, I'll mercifully close the thread.
#democracy
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Like a sweet sweet angel of mercy this thread prays for the release only death can provide. Smash that LIKE button.
 
[MENTION=124732]LawnDart[/MENTION] my comment was not meant toward you. I actually agree with your stance, and commend you for understanding that you exceeded the performance ceiling with this platform (for your needs). I truly made this thread to instigate and I got the reaction that I was expecting. Think of it as social experiment. My comment and this thread is more toward the 4Runner fanboy who bashes the Raptor, with no real facts to back up their claims. Just a whole bunch of "Ford is so unreliable, my 99 F150 broke down a lot" or "throw a supercharger and 285s on the 4Runner and I'll crush a Raptor". Mind you, I have a 4Runner and I'm enjoying the hell out of it. But i'm not one to say that my truck handles like a sports car because it has KDSS. Or or, i overland because I have a shovel on my roof rack, and my patch game is strong. It reminds me of all the internet street cars with number plates and tire paint. I'm all for "it's your car, build what you want, and spend YOUR money how you want to" but some people need to stay in their lane. It's getting wild out here.

/rant
 
Toyota has been the king of the midsize market for so long that there hasn't really been a need to push the envelope. The ZR2 was Chevy throwing down the gauntlet, but I think other manufacturers would want to see sales numbers before going too crazy.

When the Ranger, Bronco, Blazer and even the Jeep truck get back maybe we'll see some type of midsize arms race going. Would be nice to give the consumers more options.

I have to wonder how much Ford makes off the Raptor program. With Ford's bread and butter being full sized trucks it makes sense for them to keep pushing the limits. There's a lot of competition in that segment and it always helps to be able to say "we've got the most bad ass production truck on the planet".
 
Alright alright, I'll comment guys jeez keep your pants on. Enough with the emails and calls and letters. I'll give you my opinion finally if it means people will stop hounding for my sacred thoughts....

Avid Toyota fan boy here. Love my 2nd gen, love the wife's 5th gen. Toyota makes the most reliable vehicles on the road based on what I've seen in a 10 1/2 year long independent shop automotive career of all makes and models. That's why I have Toyotas. And I keep them. They last.

Buuuuut everything-yes EVERYTHING!-WILL break down at some point. Just seems Toyotas do it at an astronomically lower rate than most cars, while Fords (in general) are amongst the highest in non-reliability.

That being said, it all comes down to value. Since money is a limiting factor, I don't own a Raptor. But if the 6 numbers of the lottery hit right, you know what's on my list right after buying half a mountain in Montana? Yeah, like 8 Raptors, one of each color so that my friends and I can drive the f*ck out of them and Baja them like Trophy Trucks all f*ckin day. They're out of the gate monsters. Zero mods needed to drive it like a total white-sunglass-wearing, class 1 surfer brah, a$$hole

But reality limits this for lots of people. I'll drive toyotas forever and never sell the ones I love. But there's gotta be other cars on your dream list. Nothing satisfies every need for every person.
 
1engineer said:
Alright, that time again apparently lol. If you want this thread locked then like the post above this one. If it gets 15 likes, I'll mercifully close the thread.
#democracy
Click to expand...

You know it was entertaining somewhat though:llama: [MENTION=152219]HeartGuy[/MENTION] ..just delete your post and we can play dominoes from there.

Thread was bait in the first place ...who should care what one drives or likes...just get out an Live

And I know you get it...
 
When I first wanted a truck or 4runner. I really wanted a raptor. I was pretty close on pulling the trigger on a used one but it was still pretty pricey for used. I waited for a while than started looking at 4runners because I knew the family would grow plus I like the fact I could have the dogs in the back with the roll down window but they wouldn't be exposed like sitting in a truck bed. If I needed a truck I would probably go after a raptor. Just seems to be a pretty bada@# truck from the factory.
 
The Raptor looks great and apparently performs well. While I would like to have one, I like my 4r more and the 4r fits what I need much better.

I drive pickups most of my life, and only migrating to SUVs recently. If they had the Raptor back in the day, I would have bought one instead of my F350 (though that is debatable because I like the 7.3).

So, apples and oranges? The Raptor is what I was hoping Toyota did with the TRD Pro; some wildly modified special edition 4r. Not that I would have right away bought it instead of my trail, but it would be cool to look at and have around.
 
I wanted a Raptor before we bought the 4runner. My wife wanted a minivan and the 4runner was right in between since we bought the SR5 w/ 3rd row. And for those that say that Ford is unreliable, try owning a BMW out of warranty.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 
You know, I never saw this "spared no expense" throughout the JP franchise:

1) only a 10,000 volt fence for a T-Rex? Shit. A car's ignition/spark system is 40-60K volts...

2) they didn't think to design the fuse breaker room within the main control room? Naw. Let's put it passed the Raptor pen, and make sure in an emergency we have to run passed that area

3) Muldoon: "I told them they should have put locking mechanisms on the doors!" ...I believe that is an expense that was spared leading to a lawyer's death

4) hey, where's all the guards and guns and shit? Just Muldoon the Australian hunter with a rifle. That should stop 20 tons of teeth and anger...

I love JP. Just like to break its balls. Just cracks me up the irony of it all. How do investors keep putting money into the Park in the movies?? Everyone dies. Always. They should be bankrupt without question.

Can't wait for JW 2! There's no way anything bad will happen this time
 
Wolfpacker said:
.

I have to wonder how much Ford makes off the Raptor program. With Ford's bread and butter being full sized trucks it makes sense for them to keep pushing the limits. There's a lot of competition in that segment and it always helps to be able to say "we've got the most bad ass production truck on the planet".
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So your statement makes sense for trucks... but in that case... is EVERYTHING Fords bread and butter?

Supercar - Ford GT

Track Car - Mustang GT350 (which I believe is the most powerful naturally aspirated motor in a production car in the US)

Rally Car - Ford Focus RS (350 hp and awd - more than the Subaru STI or Lancer Evo - who have been in the market 15-20 yrs)

Muscle Car - GT500 (discontinued in 2014 with launch of new gen mustang, but will be released again - 662 hp) - 3.5 sec 0-60 and 11.6 sec 1/4 mile.

Off road truck - Raptor - already discussed in this thread..

Heck, even in the sedan market they now have a 350hp awd Fusion which as a fun factor blows away anything Toyota makes.


If Ford decided to put their heart into the Bronco and Ranger like they have the autos listed above, they might put a real beating on 4runner/tacoma sales numbers.

Looking at that list above, all those vehicles are premium and should excite most Car fanatics in one way or another. And when you look at Toyotas lineup in comparison, it looks pretty effin' petty. Hell, Toyota even neutered their "sports/track" Car down to a petty 200hp. I'd love an 86 but my gawd what a turd. 70hp less than the 4runners everyone pretty much agrees suck in the power department...
 
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Snow-Jet-MK5 said:
And for those that say that Ford is unreliable, try owning a BMW out of warranty.
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I've had 2 (never again), my friend had 2 (on his 3rd), and I've seen over a dozen carfax's when I was searching for a BMW. It doesn't need to be out of warranty to be unreliable, there is plenty of servicing that's non-maintenance.
 
LawnDart said:
I'm going to HOPEFULLY make this the last post on this thread, but I'll bite...

The reason I compared the supercharger to a raptor is that you're now taking a 42K TRD pro or off road, and slapping an 8K supercharger (which Magnusson is still being reticent to post numbers, both pricing and dyno), adding mechanical complexity and a requirement for premium gas, THEIR warranty and not Toyotas, plus we don't even know the install cost on top of that, all married to a rather anemic gearbox, suspension system, and electronics package, and you're now in Raptor level costs.

Key word is COSTS. Not necessarily package. I have never said to anyone that a pickup truck is better for people than an SUV. There's a reason why so many of us have an SUV, because an SUV was functionally a better fit than a truck.

Where this all spawned from was my posts on MY thread, post Trail of Missions, where we absolutely thrashed the 4Runner playing in the sandbox where the Raptors were designed and test validated.

I consider all vehicles to be like RPG characters, you have attributes that are weighted in certain directions, as compared to other characters or classes. The Raptor shifts the emphasis to power. I don't NEED to have something for tight terrain, as my needs have shifted from thinking I needed that to towing and wanting to go faster off road in the wide open areas of eastern oregon where my parents now call home, and where I plan to eventually move (the region, not with my folks).

So I came back from that trip and said, "Man I think I'm gonna consider getting a Raptor." And people took that as a declaration that I think 4Runners suck. I do not think they suck, not at all. I think they have an application however that makes me think that what Magnusson wants for their supercharger is borderline nuts, because it unfortunately adds some level of power increase, at a cost that's crazy, to a platform that really isn't going to transcend it's original design.

I've slapped race truck suspension on my 4Runner, and it performed far better than a factory suspension, but it didn't ride as smooth as a raptor by comparison, and we spared no expense (suck it, John Hammond!). The goal with my 4Runner was kind of to do both, have an overlander that could perform well off road, and I found the wall at which it ceased being great on paper, and we just had to ride that shit (warts and all) to the finish line.

The whole point of my desire for a raptor is that my requirements changed over the last 2-3 years of ownership, and now I'm faced with the decision by asking "do I want to keep this 4Runner or get something that ticks more of the boxes I need ticking?"

Power was NEVER the issue with us in Baja, it was feature set and drive quality at the speeds that BOTH types of vehicles were doing. I was never like, "guys wait up I have the go fast peddle pinned and I can't keep up!" More like, "holy shit we're shaking the truck to death at these speeds, I can go faster but we will die!"

Anytime you start getting into the price range of performance vehicles, by adding heavy duty upgrades, you have to question the value of the base platform to begin with, hence the supercharger posts.

I very much get that [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] doesn't like me. I'm also a realist in saying, I don't really care, and the feeling is mutual. I'd still buy him a beer and have a nice conversation with him in person. I'll continue to ruffle feathers and piss people off, but I'm not sponsored by any companies, and I wrote some very very frank emails to companies about what products failed on that trip. Where I find myself is just asking the questions of "is it better to try to make a bunch of upgraded parts play nice together?" or "should I just get what better fits my needs off the lot?"

Ultimately comparing a mid-sized SUV to a fullsize truck is a bizzarely laughable comparison. If I played into that, I apologize. But if you're spending 5 dollars on a hamburger, but have to throw 20 dollars of condiments on it to make it not gross, you shouldn't be opposed to asking if maybe that 25 dollar Italian meal should have also been a dinner option.

Once you get into the costs of things, don't be opposed to saying, "maybe long term this isn't the right choice...?"

I'm ultimately proud of what I've made out of my 4Runner, but I'm at a cross roads where either I need to fix it up and sell it, or fix it up and keep it (or fix it up and buy a second truck). But I absolutely won't make excuses for what could be better.
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Not much more to be said after this. One of the best parts about living is taking risks and reaping the rewards, even if its just the satisfaction of a job well done. Personally, I like to take the risks, make changes, enjoy the results, and then move on to the next thing. YOLO.
 
Trixx said:
So your statement makes sense for trucks... but in that case... is EVERYTHING Fords bread and butter?

Supercar - Ford GT

Track Car - Mustang GT350 (which I believe is the most powerful naturally aspirated motor in a production car in the US)

Rally Car - Ford Focus RS (350 hp and awd - more than the Subaru STI or Lancer Evo - who have been in the market 15-20 yrs)

Muscle Car - GT500 (discontinued in 2014 with launch of new gen mustang, but will be released again - 662 hp) - 3.5 sec 0-60 and 11.6 sec 1/4 mile.

Off road truck - Raptor - already discussed in this thread..

Heck, even in the sedan market they now have a 350hp awd Fusion which as a fun factor blows away anything Toyota makes.


If Ford decided to put their heart into the Bronco and Ranger like they have the autos listed above, they might put a real beating on 4runner/tacoma sales numbers.

Looking at that list above, all those vehicles are premium and should excite most Car fanatics in one way or another. And when you look at Toyotas lineup in comparison, it looks pretty effin' petty. Hell, Toyota even neutered their "sports/track" Car down to a petty 200hp. I'd love an 86 but my gawd what a turd. 70hp less than the 4runners everyone pretty much agrees suck in the power department...
Click to expand...


As someone who owned one of the AWD 325 HP Fusions... pass. I traded it in on my 4Runner. Outside of the fact it was AWD and had power the car was a disappointment - and this coming from someone that owned a 2006 MazdaSpeed6, 2010 Fusion, and 2012 Lincoln MKZ (all the same platform) the new Fusion is boring as far as driving dynamics go. Add to the fact that it spent multiple weeks in the shop for more than one issue that caused its battery to drain in 24 hours. I haven't driving a Camry, but power isn't everything.
 
emor8t said:
As someone who owned one of the AWD 325 HP Fusions... pass. I traded it in on my 4Runner. Outside of the fact it was AWD and had power the car was a disappointment - and this coming from someone that owned a 2006 MazdaSpeed6, 2010 Fusion, and 2012 Lincoln MKZ (all the same platform) the new Fusion is boring as far as driving dynamics go. Add to the fact that it spent multiple weeks in the shop for more than one issue that caused its battery to drain in 24 hours. I haven't driving a Camry, but power isn't everything.
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So you went from driving a 325hp awd sedan to a 4runner, and you're saying the fusion is boring? What can possibly make you more excited to drive the 4runner?

I came from a 2013 F250 I put 77k miles on, and previously owned a mustang I sold with about 80k on the clock.

In the 4+ years I owned each vehicle, they each spent a total of 1 night in the shop.

My DD is a Toyota Camry, granted its older (99 which is apparently the most bulletproof of the Camry generations) its relatively low mile. We bought it 3.5 years ago with 88k miles, and it now has 126k miles.

In the Camry's 3.5 years, its spent countless nights in the shop despite taking insanely good care of it (it's in the shop right now). Power steering went out.. exhaust brackets, few other things. Not to mention, the check engine soon light stays on 24/7 due to some exhaust/emissions issue that's about $800 to fix but doesn't effect reliability or performance, just makes it a huge challenge to pass inspection in Texas and I can't bring myself to drop that $ to fix something unrelated to reliability or performance, thought in the last 3.5 years I've easily spent $5k replacing virtually everything else wear and tear related.

I bought my 4Runner because it "should" be reliable, cheap to maintain, and a good vehicle for my wife once we start having kids. It should be fun to hit some mild offroad trails and good for camping it. It is one of the most dull and uninspiring vehicles to drive that I've owned (feel like my 18 year old v6 Camry is faster).

If my 4Runner manages to be as bulletproof as my Mustang or F250 were, I will be thrilled. It was also nice that I sold my F250 for 40k and only paid 39.5k for the 4runner, and thus having no car payments is a plus. I will be very ready to eventually buy a vehicle that truly gives a bit more of a driving experience in a few years though.
 
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Trixx said:
So you went from driving a 325hp awd sedan to a 4runner, and you're saying the fusion is boring? What can possibly make you more excited to drive the 4runner?

I came from a 2013 F250 I put 77k miles on, and previously owned a mustang I sold with about 80k on the clock.

In the 4+ years I owned each vehicle, they each spent a total of 1 night in the shop.

My DD is a Toyota Camry, granted its older (99 which is apparently the most bulletproof of the Camry generations) its relatively low mile. We bought it 3.5 years ago with 88k miles, and it now has 126k miles.

In the Camry's 3.5 years, its spent countless nights in the shop despite taking insanely good care of it (it's in the shop right now). Power steering went out.. exhaust brackets, few other things. Not to mention, the check engine soon light stays on 24/7 due to some exhaust/emissions issue that's about $800 to fix but doesn't effect reliability or performance, just makes it a huge challenge to pass inspection in Texas and I can't bring myself to drop that $ to fix something unrelated to reliability or performance, thought in the last 3.5 years I've easily spent $5k replacing virtually everything else wear and tear related.

I bought my 4Runner because it "should" be reliable, cheap to maintain, and a good vehicle for my wife once we start having kids. It should be fun to hit some mile offroad trails and good for camping it. It is one of the most dull and uninspiring vehicles to drive that I've owned (feel like my 18 year old v6 Camry is faster).

If my 4Runner manages to be as bulletproof as my Mustang or F250 were, I will be thrilled. It was also nice that I sold my F250 for 40k and only paid 39.5k for the 4runner, and thus having no car payments is a plus. I will be very ready to eventually buy a vehicle that truly gives a bit more of a driving experience in a few years though.
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i bought the 4runner for much the same reasons you did.

You can't really say a Camry is unreliable when your case study is a 15 year old example multi owner car with 90k miles on it.

When you have one that has less than 9k miles on it, is the top of the line Camry, and Toyota chooses not to respond to the dealership, and you have to Bug executives on LinkedIn for an answer to why you're paying $600 a month for a car that can't hold a charge, and the resale value of it has cratered 30%, that'd be a better comparison.

As I mentioned, I've had a few Ford vehicles before, including a 2012 Mustang GT. My wife even had a 10 year old Focus. If you took all the time my previous Fords were in the shop, combined them, they wouldn't have spent as much time in the shop as the last Fusion did. It was hands down my least favorite to drive, it was neither enough of a sports car or utilitarian enough to justify the payment for me. Adding in the fact that Ford treated the entire situation so terribly, I just wanted to walk away from it and them.
 
Trixx said:
So you went from driving a 325hp awd sedan to a 4runner, and you're saying the fusion is boring? What can possibly make you more excited to drive the 4runner?

I came from a 2013 F250 I put 77k miles on, and previously owned a mustang I sold with about 80k on the clock.

In the 4+ years I owned each vehicle, they each spent a total of 1 night in the shop.

My DD is a Toyota Camry, granted its older (99 which is apparently the most bulletproof of the Camry generations) its relatively low mile. We bought it 3.5 years ago with 88k miles, and it now has 126k miles.

In the Camry's 3.5 years, its spent countless nights in the shop despite taking insanely good care of it (it's in the shop right now). Power steering went out.. exhaust brackets, few other things. Not to mention, the check engine soon light stays on 24/7 due to some exhaust/emissions issue that's about $800 to fix but doesn't effect reliability or performance, just makes it a huge challenge to pass inspection in Texas and I can't bring myself to drop that $ to fix something unrelated to reliability or performance, thought in the last 3.5 years I've easily spent $5k replacing virtually everything else wear and tear related.

I bought my 4Runner because it "should" be reliable, cheap to maintain, and a good vehicle for my wife once we start having kids. It should be fun to hit some mild offroad trails and good for camping it. It is one of the most dull and uninspiring vehicles to drive that I've owned (feel like my 18 year old v6 Camry is faster).

If my 4Runner manages to be as bulletproof as my Mustang or F250 were, I will be thrilled. It was also nice that I sold my F250 for 40k and only paid 39.5k for the 4runner, and thus having no car payments is a plus. I will be very ready to eventually buy a vehicle that truly gives a bit more of a driving experience in a few years though.
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I have a 800+ hp car sitting in the garage right now and I actually enjoy driving my 4runner more. Why I can't really explain, it just feels good and has fantastic utility. The 800hp car is rough, is fast as hell, loud as hell, and uncomfortable as hell. At one time in my life, I loved driving it daily more than anything.. now I plan to sell it. I have another 400hp sedan that I drive daily. It is super comfy and a joy to drive in every way, but sometimes I still get more joy out of the 4Runner. I like the driving position of sitting up high and the overall experience. Yes, it lacks a bit of low end power at times.... that is my only real complaint, but hopefully there is a solution to that coming soon. Even with the lack of instant tq.. it has no issue keeping up with traffic.... I just can't drive it like my other cars and pass anything in site (which I rarely do anymore).I hardly ever exceed the speed limit... Maybe it is the stereo in the 4r or something, but even my wife enjoys being in it... It also gets a lot of attention.. which is not what I like especially since it is always from guys... never a woman. I've seen people almost wreck trying to get a look at it... Mainly because they can't figure out what it is exactly..

I guess I might get tired of it if it was my only vehicle... But something about it has sort of hooked me. Sometimes things just fit.
 
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