Oil Real vs. Synthetic

[bulldog-yota]

Hahahhaa... you're a funny guy. You obviously have a reading comprehension problem. The oil ring is just a "wiping" ring. The other rings (compression) are exactly what the oil gets past in an engine that is not fully broken in. You are stating my point exactly..... when an engine is in its break-in period, OIL can pass THROUGH the tiny gaps between the rings and the bore. When the cylinder bore crosshatch pattern is fully seated with the rings, then in theory, NO oil should pass by them. This is your first lesson to Auto mechanics 101.

Well it seems you have the same problem reading. It is the job of the oil ring to make sure there are no significant amount of oil left on the bore to pass past the compresion rings. It is not the compression rings work to make sure oil on the bore is controlled. However if there is blowby the pressure in the sump makes the oil rings work impsossible. Oil doesn't blow by the the compression rings, it is rather oil left on the bore by the oil ring that gets burned. But I'm sure you learned that as well in mech 101.

 

[bulldog-yota]

Once again you have a reading comprehension problem. Of course you can use synthetic during break-in on vehicles that come factory filled with synthetic. This is not groundbreaking news.

Now that is 100% the opposite of your disagreement right at the beginning with Z06.

To refresh your own memory:
"I disagree completely. It's a well-known fact that using synthetic oil on a brand new engines can cause oil to pass though the piston rings. Why does this happen? Because of the inherent properties of synthetic oil (in other words, its more slippery).

Yes, I know that certain vehicles come from the factory with synethic in the crankcase, but those vehicles were engineered to use synthetic oil....

An engine NOT designed to run on synthetic can develop oil leaks because of the synthetic oil itself.... especially older engines."

 

[Hitman]

Well it seems you have the same problem reading. It is the job of the oil ring to make sure there are no significant amount of oil left on the bore to pass past the compresion rings. It is not the compression rings work to make sure oil on the bore is controlled. However if there is blowby the pressure in the sump makes the oil rings work impsossible. Oil doesn't blow by the the compression rings, it is rather oil left on the bore by the oil ring that gets burned. But I'm sure you learned that as well in mech 101.

Yes, I know the jobs of the rings (both kinds) and my point here is that a new engine has to deal with an "unsealed" relationship of rings to bore.

Isn't that what we're talking about here?????????

I starting to feel like banging my head against a brick wall here... no matter how I say it, you're just not following me.

 

[405HP_Z06]

I think you are doing the right thing with the UOA on the new 4.0 V6 since it is a new engine and who knew how it would wear. Looks like a good one (but it is a Toyota). I have the 4.7 V8 and if you check out the UOA on bobistheoilguy on the Toyota 4.7 V8 you will see that it is one of the best engines based on UOA on any oil they have tested. It is just a great engine that is very very easy on oil. I think you could use any appropriate API rated oil and the 4.7 would out last the rest of the SUV. My 350Z owners manual states that Nissan does not recommend owners use synthetic oil in their engine. Several owners have used synthetic from the first day they bought their Z and several have had their engines replaced for extreme oil consumption. I have no idea if its the synthetic oil but I just follow Nissans instructions and use dino oil that is rated API per Nissans instructions and change it every 3000 miles. My Z does not have any oil related problems.

I did see your UOA. It was a good one! Toyota designs a good engine that are easy on oil.

I didn't know that about the 350Z. I have many friends that I HPDE with and they all run synthetics in their 350's with no problems. Who knows?

Great info!

 

[Hitman]

Now that is 100% the opposite of your disagreement right at the beginning with Z06.

To refresh your own memory:
"I disagree completely. It's a well-known fact that using synthetic oil on a brand new engines can cause oil to pass though the piston rings. Why does this happen? Because of the inherent properties of synthetic oil (in other words, its more slippery).

Yes, I know that certain vehicles come from the factory with synethic in the crankcase, but those vehicles were engineered to use synthetic oil....

An engine NOT designed to run on synthetic can develop oil leaks because of the synthetic oil itself.... especially older engines."

Good job quoting me... but show me where I am said anything different.

Lets look at the facts that I stated:

1- synethic oil in a brand new engine can cause oil to pass through the gap between the rings and bore because it is more slippery.

2- Certain vehicles come from the factory with synthetic fill. These engines were designed for synthetic and will break-in fine with them

3- engines not designed to run on synthetic can develop oil leaks because of the use of synthetic oil.

I never contradicted myself and I still stand behind each of those statements.

 

[Hitman]

Again showing your limited knowledge. The filter's job in the oil system is to filter the oil. A low quality filter will show higher insolubable levels and lower flash points from the oil loading up with trash. You have to look at both if you are intrepreting oil data becuase of their dependency. It's more like the apple and the tree.


This is incredible... again, you miss the point. I'm not saying that filters don't have anything to do with your oil. I'm simply saying that to compare synthetic vs dino oil, leave the filters out of it because any type of filter can be used with any type of oil.





Wrong AGAIN. Blackstone Labs publishes universal averages with each UOA. That and quality intrepretation from Dyson Analysis is how I have arrived at my oil regimine.

It's only meaningless to those that have no idea what they are looking at.

We're not talking about averages... we're talking about an identicle vehicle with the same miles/driving conditions blah blah blah etc... I said it before, I'm tired of repeating it.

The only way to "prove" anything is to produce a scientific study, which neither of us can do.

But you keep sticking to your theories and Blackstone labs, okay?

 

[Hitman]

Of course you avoided my question earlier, so I'll repeat it:

Does synthetic oil have the same coefficent of friction as conventional motor oil?

After you answer that question, try this one:

Is synethic more slippery than conventional oil.


For some strange reason, you just can't answer this question.:bash:

 

[405HP_Z06]

Funny that you mention that... I looked on the Amsoil website (which is a huge proponent of synthetic oils) and they recommened that you break in a new engine on conventional oil.

Read all about it here:

http://www.lubeus.com/convertingtoamsoil.php

From the website you quoted:
"By changing the factory installed oil and filter after the first 500 miles you will also be removing the initial wear-in particulates present in the oil and filter. The reason for this is that during initial wear-in there is very high particulate contamination in the oil. These particulates consist mainly of microscopic particles of aluminum, bronze, copper, lead and iron, plus soot particles and other by-products of combustion in your oil. Your filter cannot filter out all these small particulates as many are sub-micron size and too small for the filter to trap, BUT they are also small enough to fit between your bearing and other internal clearances and cause wear. That is why we recommend to that in order to properly break-in a new engine, regardless of what your new car salesman or dealership personnel tell you, is to perform the first oil and filter change at 500 miles. Then you can convert to AMSOIL Synthetic. "

If you would read your own reference carefully, they are saying that the reason to run the conventional oil for the first 500 miles is to clean out as much of the wear metals as possible then switch to synthetic(Amsoil in this case).

Hahahhaa... you're a funny guy. You obviously have a reading comprehension problem. The oil ring is just a "wiping" ring. The other rings (compression) are exactly what the oil gets past in an engine that is not fully broken in. You are stating my point exactly..... when an engine is in its break-in period, OIL can pass THROUGH the tiny gaps between the rings and the bore. When the cylinder bore crosshatch pattern is fully seated with the rings, then in theory, NO oil should pass by them. This is your first lesson to Auto mechanics 101.

There has to be a small amount of oil to lubricate the rings or they would sieze in the bore and scuff the piston ring grooves which would quickly result in engine failure. Maybe you need to take a refresher in Engines 101.

Yup, already provided proof from Amsoils website that you should NOT break in a new engine with synthetic.

What do you want next?

I don't think you did. You took a small piece of the whole article and misconstrewed the data. The webpage you reference does not state that an engine should be broken in on conventional oils becuase of ring seating issues. It mainly discusses heat and cooling cycles and excessive wear in metals. This webpage I can agree with. This is exactly what I saw with my 4Runner.

......Of course you can use synthetic during break-in on vehicles that come factory filled with synthetic. This is not groundbreaking news.

You never explained how the engines that come with synthetic from the factory are engineered for it? Please explain the engineering differences between an engine with synthetic as the factory fill and and engine with conventional as the factory fill.

I bet the answer lies not in engineering differences, but cost. If you look at the engine's that come with synthetic as the factory fill, they are usually higher performance sports cars with a higher than average cost. I'm not aware of a vehicle that costs less than $45,000 sticker that comes with synthetic as the factory fill.

Good job quoting me... but show me where I am said anything different.

Lets look at the facts that I stated:

1- synethic oil in a brand new engine can cause oil to pass through the gap between the rings and bore because it is more slippery.

2- Certain vehicles come from the factory with synthetic fill. These engines were designed for synthetic and will break-in fine with them

3- engines not designed to run on synthetic can develop oil leaks because of the use of synthetic oil.

I never contradicted myself and I still stand behind each of those statements.

You haven't shown any solid data to support any of these claims either. These are purely YOUR opinion on a subject that you know little about.

I am sure many appreciate your insightful information on other subjects, but do everyone a service and don't propagate these false opinons. It's hard enough to wade through the BS on the internet without people such as yourself blatently advocating incorrect practices. This thread is a perfect example of why there are so many threads inquiring about synthetic oils versus conventional oils.

 

[405HP_Z06]

Of course you avoided my question earlier, so I'll repeat it:

Does synthetic oil have the same coefficent of friction as conventional motor oil?

After you answer that question, try this one:

Is synethic more slippery than conventional oil.


For some strange reason, you just can't answer this question.:bash:

Please identify the ASTM test that shows 'coefficient of friction' for a motor oil and I will find the facts. I won't be lured by your juvenile games. I will publish the facts that I can backup and that's all.

 

[405HP_Z06]

This is incredible... again, you miss the point. I'm not saying that filters don't have anything to do with your oil. I'm simply saying that to compare synthetic vs dino oil, leave the filters out of it because any type of filter can be used with any type of oil.

Avoiding the obvious again. Keep doing what you do best!!:goinposta

We're not talking about averages... we're talking about an identicle vehicle with the same miles/driving conditions blah blah blah etc... I said it before, I'm tired of repeating it.

The only way to "prove" anything is to produce a scientific study, which neither of us can do.

But you keep sticking to your theories and Blackstone labs, okay?

:behead: Then quit replying on subjects that you obviously no nothing about! Used oil analysis is all about trends and averages!!!!!!!!! Again, misconstrewing and crafting information to confuse the consumer.

I'm out. Please retreat to your hole and stop confusing the well intentioned 4 Runner owner with this useless drivel.:bash:

 

[bulldog-yota]

Hitman,

All I can say is the only way to learn is to realize when you are wrong and interpret new data. If you have a different theory please back it up with fact.

Stating opinion is fine, but if you want to continue you need to back it up with fact. Otherwise you do a disservice to everybody else. Nothing like a good debate backed up by fact rather than beliefs.

 

[Bluto]

Sorry, forgot about to mention the air filter. Very important!

I switched to synthetic on the 4Runner at 4202 engine miles. The Z06 has had synthetic from the factory. How many miles do you have on the motor now? I wouldn't wait 10K miles though.

As far as filters go, I would use the K&N or Mobil 1.

I had the oil in my last car analyzed to determine what oil was best for the engine. I was driving a lot of miles and wanted to make sure a 7.5-10k drain interval was OK. I always changed the filter at 3750 and added a 1/2 qt. oil. I don't think the average filter can be effective for 7.5k. AMS Oil did much better than Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 was in bad shape at 7.5k, and should not have been run that long.

Now I have my 4Runner, which I plan to drive until the wheels fall off. In fact, I think it will be the last gasoline powered vehicle I buy/own.

The air filter and oil filter have a huge impact on the oil. No point in running $8/qt oil with a $3 oil filter and junk air filter. I like Wix. I need to see if they have a larger filter that will fit.


I have 2260 miles on my engine. 1st change at 700, 2nd at 2200. I only drive about 13k a year. I need to follow the severe maint schedule. I feel a synthetic is a must for my short commute. Just not sure when I should switch.


What are the Z06 owner's opinion on the Mobil 1 Factory Fill?

Mitsu EVO owners who dumped the Mobil 1 for dino oil during break-in put down more power, have better compression, better leak-down tests, and the rod bearings seat better.

The rings/cylinders aren't the only parts in an engine that need to break-in.

I feel all engines need dino for break in, and some high output engines must have synthetic after break-in. The Factory Fill is to ensure the avg consumer who may not switch to synthetic after break-in does not have a choice. The Factory Fill is also a great marketing and advertising tool. But this is just opinion. :arrow:

 

[Koz]

We can debate forever on how good synthetic oil is. Some people will never accept the PROVEN fact that synthetic oil is far superior to conventional oil in EVERY aspect. Even with lab test and oil analysis/proof.

The fact is, the filtration (removing the contaminants in oil and intake air) of the oil/air is the determining factor on how long you can go between oil changes. The only way to determine how long the oil can provide adequate protection is to analyze the oil.

If you have an open mind you can see that using the right filtration (oil/air) it is possible to use the same oil (synthetic), safely, for over 100K miles. This system is an investment in providing the BEST possible engine protection that exists. If you don't plan on keeping your vehicle long don't waste you time and money. If you have the time read about this system. At 25K miles you need to have the oil analyzed to verify. This system has been PROVEN to do exactly what it claims to do!

http://www.bestsyntheticoil.com/amsoil/by-pass.shtml

Koz

 

[405HP_Z06]

I had the oil in my last car analyzed to determine what oil was best for the engine. I was driving a lot of miles and wanted to make sure a 7.5-10k drain interval was OK. I always changed the filter at 3750 and added a 1/2 qt. oil. I don't think the average filter can be effective for 7.5k. AMS Oil did much better than Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 was in bad shape at 7.5k, and should not have been run that long.

For me, I wouldn't run any filter longer than 5K miles. I've tried the Delco UPF44 and the Baldwin B31 on the Z06 and didn't see any difference in filtering ability. IMHO, Amsoil, Baldwin, K&N, and the Delco Gold are all about equal as long as they are changed on a regular basis. Pick your mileage....3750, 4000, 3000 but just don't go over 5000.

Now I have my 4Runner, which I plan to drive until the wheels fall off. In fact, I think it will be the last gasoline powered vehicle I buy/own.

The air filter and oil filter have a huge impact on the oil. No point in running $8/qt oil with a $3 oil filter and junk air filter. I like Wix. I need to see if they have a larger filter that will fit.

Exactly what I've been saying this whole thread. Filters are just as important as the oil that you run.

I have 2260 miles on my engine. 1st change at 700, 2nd at 2200. I only drive about 13k a year. I need to follow the severe maint schedule. I feel a synthetic is a must for my short commute. Just not sure when I should switch.

If it were me, I would switch to synthetic after your current fill. I think synthetic is a good idea no matter what kind of maintenance schedule you use.

What are the Z06 owner's opinion on the Mobil 1 Factory Fill?

Most Corvette owners stay with synthetic. I would guess that most stary with Mobil 1.

Mitsu EVO owners who dumped the Mobil 1 for dino oil during break-in put down more power, have better compression, better leak-down tests, and the rod bearings seat better.

I would be curious to see any data related to this. Before and after tests. How did they measure 'rod bearings seat better'? I couldn't imagine someone disassembling their engine to look at this.

The rings/cylinders aren't the only parts in an engine that need to break-in.

I feel all engines need dino for break in, and some high output engines must have synthetic after break-in. The Factory Fill is to ensure the avg consumer who may not switch to synthetic after break-in does not have a choice. The Factory Fill is also a great marketing and advertising tool. But this is just opinion. :arrow:

I agree there are many moving parts in an engine that need break-in. IMHO, it's the wear metals that need to be removed from the engine during the 'break-in' period. My preference is to change early and often for the first few thousand miles to get the wear metals out of the system.

 

[405HP_Z06]

We can debate forever on how good synthetic oil is. Some people will never accept the PROVEN fact that synthetic oil is far superior to conventional oil in EVERY aspect. Even with lab test and oil analysis/proof.

The fact is, the filtration (removing the contaminants in oil and intake air) of the oil/air is the determining factor on how long you can go between oil changes. The only way to determine how long the oil can provide adequate protection is to analyze the oil.

If you have an open mind you can see that using the right filtration (oil/air) it is possible to use the same oil (synthetic), safely, for over 100K miles. This system is an investment in providing the BEST possible engine protection that exists. If you don't plan on keeping your vehicle long don't waste you time and money. If you have the time read about this system. At 25K miles you need to have the oil analyzed to verify. This system has been PROVEN to do exactly what it claims to do!

http://www.bestsyntheticoil.com/amsoil/by-pass.shtml

Koz

I agree, bypass filters do work great. However, I don't completely agree that filtration is the determining factor in oil life. A bypass filter will allow for longer OCI's, but you are still limited by the oil's ability to deal with combustion byproducts. This is the reason that I rely so heavily on UOA. It shows useful oil life based on oil add pack and the filters ability to reduce contamination.

 

[Bluto]

I would be curious to see any data related to this. Before and after tests. How did they measure 'rod bearings seat better'? I couldn't imagine someone disassembling their engine to look at this.



I agree there are many moving parts in an engine that need break-in. IMHO, it's the wear metals that need to be removed from the engine during the 'break-in' period. My preference is to change early and often for the first few thousand miles to get the wear metals out of the system.

I read posts from tuners, dyno days. Owners who ran conventional oil the first 5000, with frequent changes, dynoed higher, consumed less oil, etc.

APR rod bolts are a common upgrade. The road bearings of engines that broke-in with conventional oil seated better and smoother. Maybe the Mobil1 engines just needed more time?

I have not been on the EVO forums in a while, but it seems to make sense.

I guess the question is, Compared to Synthetic Oil, will an new engine produce more wear metals on conventional oil, and is the extra wear beneficial?

 

[Kanab]

I read posts from tuners, dyno days. Owners who ran conventional oil the first 5000, with frequent changes, dynoed higher, consumed less oil, etc.

APR rod bolts are a common upgrade. The road bearings of engines that broke-in with conventional oil seated better and smoother. Maybe the Mobil1 engines just needed more time?

I have not been on the EVO forums in a while, but it seems to make sense.

I guess the question is, Compared to Synthetic Oil, will an new engine produce more wear metals on conventional oil, and is the extra wear beneficial?

I did that with my 350Z 1,000 - 3,000 - and then every 3,000 OCI and I did the 4runner at 1,500 - 4,500 - and then every 3,750 OCI both with dino. Both are doing great and both will be sold before they reach 90K miles

 

[Hitman]

If you would read your own reference carefully, they are saying that the reason to run the conventional oil for the first 500 miles is to clean out as much of the wear metals as possible then switch to synthetic(Amsoil in this case).

Maybe you should read it carefully. I never said the REASON why they claim you should break a new engine in on conventional oil, I simply provided PROOF that they do recommend conventional oil for break-in.

"First, if you have a brand new vehicle we recommend that you run a short cycle of petroleum oil on a gas engine passenger car"

There it is in black and white. Go argue with Amsoil, not me.


There has to be a small amount of oil to lubricate the rings or they would sieze in the bore and scuff the piston ring grooves which would quickly result in engine failure. Maybe you need to take a refresher in Engines 101.

Who said that no oil should be present? Certainly not me. I would never advocate running an engine without oil present.



You never explained how the engines that come with synthetic from the factory are engineered for it? Please explain the engineering differences between an engine with synthetic as the factory fill and and engine with conventional as the factory fill.

Sure I did... probably 2 or 3 times already. Do yourself a favor and perform a web search on cross hatch patterns and the different kinds of piston rings. I'm sure you'll believe your own research much more than you'll believe me.



I bet the answer lies not in engineering differences, but cost. If you look at the engine's that come with synthetic as the factory fill, they are usually higher performance sports cars with a higher than average cost. I'm not aware of a vehicle that costs less than $45,000 sticker that comes with synthetic as the factory fill.



So using that dumb logic, if Toyota decided to make my 4Runner a $45000 vehicle and call it a sports car, it would come with synethic oil in the crankcase??

You are showing your ignorance about modern engine technology if you honestly think a Corvette engine or an M3 engine that comes with synthetic fill is not engineered for it.



You haven't shown any solid data to support any of these claims either. These are purely YOUR opinion on a subject that you know little about.



You have only stated YOUR opinions as well. A lab test result doesn't do anything to COMPARITIVELY compare two otherwise identicle engines.

I am sure many appreciate your insightful information on other subjects, but do everyone a service and don't propagate these false opinons. It's hard enough to wade through the BS on the internet without people such as yourself blatently advocating incorrect practices. This thread is a perfect example of why there are so many threads inquiring about synthetic oils versus conventional oils.

I'll continue to state my opinions and back them up with facts if I feel the need. Don't tell me what to say or not to say, m'kay?

Perhaps you should take your own advice though...

 

[Hitman]

Please identify the ASTM test that shows 'coefficient of friction' for a motor oil and I will find the facts. I won't be lured by your juvenile games. I will publish the facts that I can backup and that's all.

No games here, bud.

You said that synthetic oil is not more slippery than conventional oil.

Now I'm asking you if the coefficient of friction is identicle between dino and synthetic.

You won't answer because you know I can PROVE you wrong.

Answer the question and I'll be happy to provide you with proof.

But like I said, you simply won't do it for fear of looking foolish. And that's pathetic.

 

[Hitman]

Hitman,

All I can say is the only way to learn is to realize when you are wrong and interpret new data. If you have a different theory please back it up with fact.

Stating opinion is fine, but if you want to continue you need to back it up with fact. Otherwise you do a disservice to everybody else. Nothing like a good debate backed up by fact rather than beliefs.

What facts have YOU provided?? A link or two from an oil company website?

Well, I provided a similar link of my own, so I'm doing the same thing as you.

Face it, 99% of this debate has been opinion and NOTHING else.