Oil Real vs. Synthetic

[Kmvreter]

Thanks for the discussions...

So avoiding all the pointless banter, I've decided I'm going to switch. Does M1 have a synthetic blend? If not, I'll go straight M1. I plan to keep mine a long time. Just like bulldog-yota, after a DD stint, it will become a project (unless that new FJ Cruiser works as a better platform.)

 

[Hitman]

So, you are going to bow out with a not-so-smart comment......still can't support any of your data.

For the record, I lose interest also when I attempt to read about things I know absolutely, positively nothing about.

No, I'm not bowing out of anything.... I just don't feel like reading the book that you copied/pasted to the forum. A link would have sufficed.

BTW, if you want to talk about supporting your data, you still haven't done anything but claim that I'm telling lies when it comes to my post about mixing synthetic and conventional oil to create your own blend.

You simply claimed that my words were false without any evidence whatsoever.

So pony up, Mr. data... where is your proof?

That's what I thought.

 

[405HP_Z06]

Re: Thanks for the discussions...

So avoiding all the pointless banter, I've decided I'm going to switch. Does M1 have a synthetic blend? If not, I'll go straight M1. I plan to keep mine a long time. Just like bulldog-yota, after a DD stint, it will become a project (unless that new FJ Cruiser works as a better platform.)

Yes, Mobil Clean 7500 is a synthetic blend.

 

[Kanab]

Anyone know much about Castrol Syntec (their full synthetic) My dealer uses all Castrol products. I've been using the Castrol GTX since some of the guys on bobistheoilguy site thought that the GTX was better at a 4K mile OCI then the Syntec would be at a 5K mile OCI. I know that Mobil 1 is better but I won't take it into my dealer since I can't watch them do the work I am not trusting enough to think the Mobil 1 would end up in my 4runner.

 

[405HP_Z06]

Anyone know much about Castrol Syntec (their full synthetic) My dealer uses all Castrol products. I've been using the Castrol GTX since some of the guys on bobistheoilguy site thought that the GTX was better at a 4K mile OCI then the Syntec would be at a 5K mile OCI. I know that Mobil 1 is better but I won't take it into my dealer since I can't watch them do the work I am not trusting enough to think the Mobil 1 would end up in my 4runner.

Castrol Syntec 0w-30, aka 'GC' on BITOG, has produced some excellent wear numbers in many different UOA's. I haven't seen any UOA's for the 4.7 or 4.0 with it, but wouldn't hesitate to use it.

There is a 'Made in the USA' version of the Syntec 0w-30, so make sure the back of the bottle says 'Made in Germany'. You can also tell by the color, GC is a distinct green tint compared to the American verison.

IMHO, GC is just as good as Mobil 1 5w-30 or 10w-30.

 

[Bobby]

Anyone know much about Castrol Syntec (their full synthetic) My dealer uses all Castrol products. I've been using the Castrol GTX since some of the guys on bobistheoilguy site thought that the GTX was better at a 4K mile OCI then the Syntec would be at a 5K mile OCI. I know that Mobil 1 is better but I won't take it into my dealer since I can't watch them do the work I am not trusting enough to think the Mobil 1 would end up in my 4runner.

Yep. I've been using SynTec 5w50 on my M3 since '98 and have had great experiences with it. That's what I'm using in my 4runner now (5w30). I plan on 8-10k OCI. I do about 5-7k OCI on my M3 only b/c it's a high compression engine and I don't baby it : . My M3 has seen lots of track time living in the 4-7k rpm range.

 

[Thai]

****Sharpening my scissors to cut any more crap in this thread*****

Stick to civilized conversation PLEASE. Thanks guys.

 

[Bluto]

There is alot of variance in rear wheel dyno's, especially if done on different days and on different dyno's. How much higher did they dyno? How much lower were consumption rates?


Many factors affecting this. Every engine is different and everyone drives their car differently which could easily influence bearing break-in.

Great question! I am making an ASSUMPTION, but I would think that synthetic MIGHT produce less wear metals. I would think that any wear metals would NOT be beneficial.

The dynos were AWD, all the same day, same dyno. The dino oil cars were seeing 10-15HP more to the wheels stock. The Mobil1 cars were buring 1/2 - 1 qt every 3k.


But, our trucks aren't EVOs. However the results made me question running synthetic in a new engine.


I think some wear is good. Engine technology and manufacturing has come a long way. The engines in most new vehicles are nearly blueprinted. But everything in the engine isn't perfectly matched and broken in from the factory. They come very close, but are not perfect. Parts need wear to balance out and fit smooth and tight. Wear will remove any imperfections or irregularities.


I think only the engineers at Toyota know how much is necessary and how long it will take.


I will be conservative and run dino 12k, then synthetic.


Why will I use synthetic? My commute is 7 miles one way. Neither my engine or transmission reaches operating temp. If the engine does, it is not very long. I need the best protection I can get. I need the most durable oil I can get.


If I ran more miles, I'd still run synthetic. I do some towing. I want the best protection. I don't care if it cost more. I'll run synthetic for the same reason I don't use turtle wax. I'm a car nut. I get a warm fuzzy when I pour an $8 quart of oil in my engine. :gaptooth:


The numbers on bobistheoilguy don't factor in demographics or environment. Most Toyota V8 owners are probably conservative. They don't drive like a Camaro or RSX owner. They maintain their vehicles. Maybe I'll do a few samples before and after synthetic. I'm sure dino would do just fine.

If I still worked in a sound and vibration lab, it would be interesting to take some readings of my engine during cold start up and at operating temp; before and after synthetic. I don't think anyone has ever done something like it. But I think the cams would have a lot to say.

 

[Bobby]

The dynos were AWD, all the same day, same dyno. The dino oil cars were seeing 10-15HP more to the wheels stock. The Mobil1 cars were buring 1/2 - 1 qt every 3k.

I've seen the same thing with M3 owners. They say thier cars burn up to a qt/1000 miles (worst I've heard) using Mobil 1. There's also the lift tick common with the S52/S50 motors. I run SynTec and I don't have either problem. I'll stick with Castrol SynTec over Mobil 1.

Why will I use synthetic? My commute is 7 miles one way. Neither my engine or transmission reaches operating temp. If the engine does, it is not very long. I need the best protection I can get. I need the most durable oil I can get.

My commute is 5 miles. I was considering a beater for this reason.

 

[Bluto]

This article is being discussed in the bobistheoilguy
forum. Written by a Texaco oil engineer.

http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article105.html

So....the net of this long article are:

1. Change oil (and oil filter) frequently, especially if your
car runs at low speeds or idles much.
2. It does not really matter what kind of conventional oils
you use; they are more or less the same.
3. Use synthetic oils is better (except for the first 12,000 miles
or so).

The oil itself never degrades over time; it's the degradation of
the additives, unburned gas leaking into the oil, and particulate
matters that kill the oil. So doing (1) or (3) would protect
your engine.

A thank you to Thai for posting this article in a sticky above.

The author holds the opinion an engine changes greatly the first 10-12k miles and quality conventional oil should be used the first 12k. Read the article to find out why.

The author also gives the impression/opinion conventional oil is fine. But should be used for only 3000 miles then changed. 5000-7500 on conventional oil is asking for sludge.


The author is a "15+ year automotive lubrication engineer."


Disclamer: All this is just a bunch of text on the internet. I make no claims to the validty of the article, or anything I write.


But please tell me if you have a different opinion and why.

 

[Kanab]

The dynos were AWD, all the same day, same dyno. The dino oil cars were seeing 10-15HP more to the wheels stock. The Mobil1 cars were buring 1/2 - 1 qt every 3k.


But, our trucks aren't EVOs. However the results made me question running synthetic in a new engine.


I think some wear is good. Engine technology and manufacturing has come a long way. The engines in most new vehicles are nearly blueprinted. But everything in the engine isn't perfectly matched and broken in from the factory. They come very close, but are not perfect. Parts need wear to balance out and fit smooth and tight. Wear will remove any imperfections or irregularities.


I think only the engineers at Toyota know how much is necessary and how long it will take.


I will be conservative and run dino 12k, then synthetic.


Why will I use synthetic? My commute is 7 miles one way. Neither my engine or transmission reaches operating temp. If the engine does, it is not very long. I need the best protection I can get. I need the most durable oil I can get.


If I ran more miles, I'd still run synthetic. I do some towing. I want the best protection. I don't care if it cost more. I'll run synthetic for the same reason I don't use turtle wax. I'm a car nut. I get a warm fuzzy when I pour an $8 quart of oil in my engine. :gaptooth:


The numbers on bobistheoilguy don't factor in demographics or environment. Most Toyota V8 owners are probably conservative. They don't drive like a Camaro or RSX owner. They maintain their vehicles. Maybe I'll do a few samples before and after synthetic. I'm sure dino would do just fine.

If I still worked in a sound and vibration lab, it would be interesting to take some readings of my engine during cold start up and at operating temp; before and after synthetic. I don't think anyone has ever done something like it. But I think the cams would have a lot to say.

I agree with your post and I would love to see more UOA with background info on the vehicles use with both dino and synthetic. I've only seen one with Castrol Syntec and it was good at around 3800 miles but showed a low TBN level and that it might be shot at 5K miles which seemed weird to me for a synthetic or even a quality dino in the Toyota 4.7 V8 engine.

 

[Hitman]

Why will I use synthetic? My commute is 7 miles one way. Neither my engine or transmission reaches operating temp. If the engine does, it is not very long. I need the best protection I can get. I need the most durable oil I can get.

My commute is just under 4 miles to work one way. Even on the coldest winter day, my 4Runner still reaches full temp before I arrive at work. In fact, it only takes about a mile of driving (without any warm up) to get good heat cranking out of the ventilation system.

Maybe the V8 takes much longer to heat up? It shouldn't though, because it's not much bigger than the V6 in terms of actual displacement.

BTW, as a disclaimer for the forum "lawyers" that must have everything proven, I checked my engine's temperature with an OTC scan tool to determine just how long it took (on average) to reach full operation temperature.

 

[Bluto]

My commute is just under 4 miles to work one way. Even on the coldest winter day, my 4Runner still reaches full temp before I arrive at work. In fact, it only takes about a mile of driving (without any warm up) to get good heat cranking out of the ventilation system.

Maybe the V8 takes much longer to heat up? It shouldn't though, because it's not much bigger than the V6 in terms of actual displacement.

BTW, as a disclaimer for the forum "lawyers" that must have everything proven, I checked my engine's temperature with an OTC scan tool to determine just how long it took (on average) to reach full operation temperature.

Did you measure the oil or coolant temp?

I think coolant heats up much faster than oil due to the thermostat.

The cast iron block may take a bit longer than aluminum.


On my parent's Titan, it will take 10-15 minutes before the trans temp comes up on the gauge into the normal range.

 

[Kmvreter]

Re: Re: Thanks for the discussions...

Yes, Mobil Clean 7500 is a synthetic blend.

Called around and can't find it anywhere handy so I'm changing out to pure M1. I keep very detailed fuel and maintenance records so I'll let you know the results in a year (to compare to this past year.)

 

[Hitman]

Did you measure the oil or coolant temp?

I think coolant heats up much faster than oil due to the thermostat.

The cast iron block may take a bit longer than aluminum.


On my parent's Titan, it will take 10-15 minutes before the trans temp comes up on the gauge into the normal range.

I measured the coolant temperature. I never really thought about it, but the oil may reach full temperature faster than the coolant. Then again, the oil isn't restricted by the thermostat (like the coolant) when reaching max temperature.

If only my scan tool would measure oil temp......

 

[Bobby]

The oil takes much longer to heat up than the coolant because it's thicker and doesn't flow around the engine like coolant, even with the restriction of the tstat. On my friend's race prep'd M3 with temp gauges for both coolant and oil (not the stock temp gauge), the oil temp usually takes about 2-4 mins to get to operating temps while on the track. From startup to warm up laps. The coolant temp takes about a minute or two.

Most stock temp gauges are not accurate. Most will stay right smack in the middle unless it over heats and by then, it's too late. Very few are accurate.

 

[Hitman]

One thing to consider is that there is less oil than coolant in an engine.... plus, some of the coolant is always outside of the engine block.

Another consideration is that oil gets hotter (or should I say its unrestricted in temperature?) than the coolant, which is theoretically kept at a constant temperature.

What is the coolant temp vs the oil temp in your car at full operating temp?

 

[Kanab]

Let me help you guys out with this problem. Get a Mistress that lives 15 miles from your job and stay over at her place 3 nights per week. That way both you and your 4runner will get a good workout and warmed up several times per week. :

 

[Bobby]

Let me help you guys out with this problem. Get a Mistress that lives 15 miles from your job and stay over at her place 3 nights per week. That way both you and your 4runner will get a good workout and warmed up several times per week. :

Bwahahahaha!!!!

Wait a minute... my gf lives about 15 miles from work .

What is the coolant temp vs the oil temp in your car at full operating temp?

I don't remember (it's been a while) but I think oil temps were in the 230-240F range.

 

[bulldog-yota]

Let me help you guys out with this problem. Get a Mistress that lives 15 miles from your job and stay over at her place 3 nights per week. That way both you and your 4runner will get a good workout and warmed up several times per week. :

Best post in this thread!!!!!!