Phattyduck's '99 4WD swap

[4Runner4Leon]

Had a rough weekend with the 4Runner. Master cylinder bench bled, worked out fine... Installed on truck, brakes bled... and, the new (OEM!) master cylinder leaks out the back side (between booster and master cylinder). A new one is on the way...

So pretty, yet coming right back out:

So, the 4Runner is down for another week and a half... Gotta get it up and running 100% so I can do some major maintenance on the 3s-gte Camry Alltrac. 200k miles and it is ready for a bunch of work (timing belt stuff, motor mounts, rear diff mounts, rear suspension bushings, re-doing oil filter relocation - you know, normal stuff for a 30 year old turbo, 4wd car).

-Charlie

Wow that's annoying! I bought an aftermarket unit primarily to get a clean reservoir, and it's been working fine so far, but I wondered if I should have gone OEM. Sounds like maybe not .

 

[TonyB66]

Had a rough weekend with the 4Runner. Master cylinder bench bled, worked out fine... Installed on truck, brakes bled... and, the new (OEM!) master cylinder leaks out the back side (between booster and master cylinder). A new one is on the way...

So pretty, yet coming right back out:

So, the 4Runner is down for another week and a half... Gotta get it up and running 100% so I can do some major maintenance on the 3s-gte Camry Alltrac. 200k miles and it is ready for a bunch of work (timing belt stuff, motor mounts, rear diff mounts, rear suspension bushings, re-doing oil filter relocation - you know, normal stuff for a 30 year old turbo, 4wd car).

-Charlie

I feel for ya Charlie. Damn. Does look nice though!

Not sure why I never noticed you had an Alltrac. I almost picked one up a decade or so back, in my "sleeper" days, lol. I think it was less than $2k also. I bet they are pretty rare now. A labor of love for you I'm sure...

 

[phattyduck]

Not sure why I never noticed you had an Alltrac. I almost picked one up a decade or so back, in my "sleeper" days, lol. I think it was less than $2k also. I bet they are pretty rare now. A labor of love for you I'm sure...

I've owned two. My first/current one took about a year of semi-serious searching to find a clean, low mileage, rust-free example.

I've had it for ~13 years now. 3s-gte + manual swapped + bolt-ons:

Track days, daily driving, all that.

I also had a second one for a while, factory 5-speed, that I picked up with a blown motor. I swapped a 3s-ge BEAMS in that one (2.0L, 200hp NA):

That one basically only had the engine done, everything else was stock... and I sold it soon after it was done (was possibly going to be a cheap daily driver for the wife, but she didn't like it).

-Charlie

 

[TonyB66]

I've owned two. My first/current one took about a year of semi-serious searching to find a clean, low mileage, rust-free example.

I've had it for ~13 years now. 3s-gte + manual swapped + bolt-ons:

Track days, daily driving, all that.

-Charlie

Nice. Appreciate you sharing. With the CF hood I imagine you did other weight-reduction, like removal of the rear seats. Sure it's fun to drive.

 

[phattyduck]

Nice. Appreciate you sharing. With the CF hood I imagine you did other weight-reduction, like removal of the rear seats. Sure it's fun to drive.

Naw, full interior w/ leather front seats, original R12 AC, and cruise control, all the way! I'm swapping out the rear diff mounts from solid to poly to get rid of some NVH. I think I'm getting old. :

That hood is 1 of about 5 ever produced, and the front bumper is a JDM one for the extra venting for the intercooler. Just about makes up for the extra weight in the front from the turbo. The car is probably ~3200lbs...

-Charlie

 

[phattyduck]

While waiting for the replacement master cylinder to arrive, I figured I should at least paint the visible parts of the caliper... Otherwise I'd have another set of rusty calipers on the truck...

Kinda a half-assed job, but better than nothing, I suppose. The master cylinder should arrive today, which is good, because I need the 4Runner back!

-Charlie

 

[phattyduck]

Well, put me in the 'soft brake pedal with Tundra brakes" category!

At least the replacement master cylinder is leak free.

In tracking down this problem, I did look up the official bleeding procedure from Toyota:

The first time I bled the new master cylinder, I forgot to follow the "NOTICE" right above step 4 - and really had a bad time. I went back to re-bleed the master cylinder using the Step 2 procedure and it improved greatly. I believe there is some sort of front-rear fluid biasing in the master cylinder (to pre-pressurize either the front or rear brakes) that gets 'reset' when you bleed the master as described in the manual there. You can actually see different fluid volume and timing coming out of the two ports as you depress the brake pedal.

The pedal is basically very soft for most of the travel and firms up right near the floor... I haven't done a max effort (ABS) stop yet to see if anything changes with that. Pedal effort to stop normally is greatly reduced (also put on the larger rear wheel cylinders as part of this process) but long travel is still happening. I do have stainless brake lines F/R, so there should be very little 'flex' in the brake system otherwise...

So, has anyone solved this one yet?

-Charlie

 

[G_Raw]

For what it's worth my OEM master has a paper gasket between it and the booster... the lack of may explain your leak. Either way glad you got it fixed.

As a side not the alltrac is rad! I'm on the hunt for a Cressida wagon as a sleeper project.

 

[phattyduck]

For what it's worth my OEM master has a paper gasket between it and the booster... the lack of may explain your leak. Either way glad you got it fixed.

As a side not the alltrac is rad! I'm on the hunt for a Cressida wagon as a sleeper project.

The paper gasket is/was in place - but it is only there to seal dust/water out of the booster/cylinder interface. There should never be brake fluid in that location.

Regarding Cressidas... I always had a thing for SC's/GS's - which are sort-of the successor to the Cressida.

-Charlie

 

[TheShowtime]

Hey Charlie, how many miles does she have on her now?

 

[phattyduck]

Hey Charlie, how many miles does she have on her now?

It is just short of 294k miles right now. Nearly fully broken in...

-Charlie

 

[phattyduck]

Took a day trip up to the desert this past weekend. Some friends were up there testing and tuning their rally car ('93 Impreza with built 2.5L NA motor) and figured it would be a good chance to get up there. Having an RV to meet at (with AC and a flush toilet...) is always a nice thing. Took a 4WD trip with a friend who is new(er) to 4-wheeling than me (still stock '19 Tacoma TRD) and a Jeep. Nothing crazy, just some steep hills and a good view at the end of the trail:

I took our 3-year old daughter (she hadn't been in a car for 3 or 4 months before this trip!) to see how she liked things. She did surprisingly well, dealing with 100*F+ temps and being stuck in a car seat for so long. She said she wants to go back, so I'll take that as a win...

Among lessons learned... I need install my trans cooler! Then again, the temps were pretty high, though luckily not full summer (say, 110*F+) hot. The trans was basically 190-220*F the whole time, despite using 4lo extensively. Funny thing though, is the hottest trans temps were on the way home on the freeway when the torque converter would unlock...

-Charlie

 

[beklemmung]

Charlie, I just read through most of this thread (again). After a ridiculously long time trying to educate myself, I'm finally almost ready to start a much-needed refresh of my truck. I think our goals are quite similar: comfortable on-road manners but good bang-for-your-buck off-road capability. There are two specific aspects of your build that I’m trying to wrap my head around:

1. Your choice to use the ’99 2WD front springs. It seems to me that the vast majority of people who put on aftermarket skids and bumpers and 5100s go with taller and firmer springs. Since you had to use a top plate spacer with the ’99 2WD springs, do you still think they were a better choice than the ’97 4WD springs or something like 880s or 881s? I’m planning to get either 5100s or Dobinsons’ GS59-222s up front. I was planning to get either 880s or similar Dobinsons front springs as well, but now I’m wondering if there’s any reason to not just use my existing ’97 4WD springs (which don’t seem to have sagged any despite being 23+ years old). I’ll have stock UCAs and 265/75/16 tires (same diameter as your KO2s). I’d like to maximize my front travel for the 5100s and stock UCAs and if my existing ’97 4WD springs would likely be indistinguishable from new and slightly taller ones I’ll spend the $ elsewhere! FWIW I’ll probably get aftermarket skids but stick with the existing OEM bumpers. I'll have 906s or similar Dobinsons springs in the back with 5100s or similar Dobinsons shocks.

2. Your choice to get the Addco sway bars. It doesn’t seem like too many people use them, and $500 for both front and rear bars isn’t cheap. Were you able to get yours for a good price, or did you just expect the increased on-road stability to be worth it? In hindsight, do you think they were money well-spent?

Really appreciate your time and expertise!

Levi

And the fun part... Suspension time! I have had a set of '14 4Runner springs for at least a year sitting in the garage, along with some Bilstein 5100's for a few months, just sitting there taunting me...

First, I found what I think is the cause of the clunk/pop in the front that I was getting recently:

Disconnect your Addco front bar if you go wheeling...

So, let's get on with it... For the front, my goal is/was to get as much out of the stock front arms as possible. I took some extra time to do this with the front. I figure (and I could be wrong!) that I should go with the softest front springs possible, which ended up being my stock front ('99 2WD springs), maybe. Some measurements:

'97 4WD springs: 16mm wire, 9 wraps
'14 4WD springs: 17mm wire, 9 wraps
'99 2WD springs: 16mm wire, 8 wraps

I didn't get free-length measurements, but probably should have. The 2WD springs barely have to be compressed to fit in the shocks, so I figured they would be more 'progressive' because they aren't pre-loaded as much. I had a couple different top plate spacers (1/4" and 3/8") to mix and match to get the extended length of the shocks to match the max droop of the upper arm (stock, droop is limited by the upper ball joint without the shock in place).

Turns out, with 4Runner 5100's (and the 4600's they replaced) that a 3/8" top plate spacer is all you can fit before the upper ball joint is the limiting factor. The shocks are about 1/4" shorter than full droop, so that pretty much maxes that out. I checked full compression of the shocks and the shock shaft has a little less than 1/2" compression when the truck weight is on the bump stop with no springs:

So, with upper arms, you might be able to get another 1/2" to 3/4" of wheel travel before shock damage occurs with 'stock' length shocks. As it stands, hub center to wheel well measurements after all was said and done:

Full extension: 25.25"
Full compression: 16.75"
At ride height: 21.25"

I only 'lifted' the front a little over an inch from stock. That is a 3/8" top plate spacer and the 5100's on the second perch and using springs meant for a 2WD 4Runner. Out of the 8.5" of travel available, I currently have 4" of droop and 4.5" of compression. I was a bit surprised when I first measured the new ride height (~22"), but I realized I forgot to put my front armor back on for that measurement. Back on, it dropped that much!

 

[phattyduck]

Charlie, I just read through most of this thread (again). After a ridiculously long time trying to educate myself, I'm finally almost ready to start a much-needed refresh of my truck. I think our goals are quite similar: comfortable on-road manners but good bang-for-your-buck off-road capability. There are two specific aspects of your build that I’m trying to wrap my head around:

1. Your choice to use the ’99 2WD front springs. It seems to me that the vast majority of people who put on aftermarket skids and bumpers and 5100s go with taller and firmer springs. Since you had to use a top plate spacer with the ’99 2WD springs, do you still think they were a better choice than the ’97 4WD springs or something like 880s or 881s? I’m planning to get either 5100s or Dobinsons’ GS59-222s up front.

2. Your choice to get the Addco sway bars. It doesn’t seem like too many people use them, and $500 for both front and rear bars isn’t cheap. Were you able to get yours for a good price, or did you just expect the increased on-road stability to be worth it? In hindsight, do you think they were money well-spent?

Really appreciate your time and expertise!

Levi

I'll do my best to answer...

1. For best front articulation / use of the available travel, you want the front to be as soft as you can without regularly bottoming out. Well, that's my theory, at least... Take a look at any of the 'flex' pictures out there of 4Runners, and you will see that the rear does most of the work, which isn't ideal. I didn't want too much of a lift with stock arms/geometry in the front, then you just lose a bunch of droop travel. My 4Runner is definitely 'undersprung' in the front, but it isn't horrible on road (just a bit of float). No issues with bottoming or anything like that. I might change out to the '97 4WD springs if/when I get a winch up front. I haven't tried other spring options though, so don't take my word as gospel.

2. I got the Addco bars used for a good price. The on-road performance change is very noticeable. I don't think its worth buying them new unless you are going to stay on road only. Here's a bit of swaybar info you may not have seen: Toyota 4Runner Handling Modifications Addco Sway Roll Bars I don't get off road all that often, and when I do, the front bar gets disconnected. I would seriously consider going back to the stock rear bar if I was going to spend significant time off road.

-Charlie

 

[phattyduck]

Had plenty of adventure/hassle installing a trans cooler over the past week or so. I decided to go a bit of an unusual route with the cooler, and created plenty of challenges along the way. In the end, I think the result is worth it, though I need a lot more testing to know the performance.

I went with a TruCool LPD4921, which is basically the width of the radiator:

To get it to fit between the hood latch support and the radiator, I had to space the AC condenser back ~1/2". For the top, I made new brackets out of some aluminum:

On the bottom, I reversed the side of the condenser bracket that the lower mounts bolt to (you have to reverse the bolt direction and slot the bracket to fit it all together):

I also had to cut off the unused tab on the condenser on the drivers side to be able to mount the cooler close enough to the condenser for everything to fit. Sadly, I first tried to bend the tab - which broke the condenser. So, ~$100 in parts later (new condenser, drier, R134a, etc.), I had to re-modify the new condenser and install it...

I was able to bolt in the trans cooler on all 4 corners fairly easily with the strapping included with the cooler:

I drilled new holes in the core support and fit rubber bushings that tightly fit the hose and holes in the panel to pass the hoses through to the engine bay:

Into the bay, below the battery:

The hoses are strapped to the lower fan shroud removable panel so that the shroud can still easily be removed for engine maintenance and those hoses will have minimal movement between the engine/body/frame movements.

I did not bypass the radiator trans cooler, as the radiator is very new. I did, however, install a thermostat for the whole system to avoid over cooling the trans fluid (and help it heat up faster in the mornings).

As of now, I haven't even driven the 4Runner since the install (just idled while refilling the AC system). I need to drive it, warm it fully and add trans fluid still (and put on the front skid plate). Working from home means not too much driving these days. I'll report how things work after a few drives. Stress testing will come later when I can get off road and/or summer really hits.

-Charlie

 

[infamousRNR]

Had plenty of adventure/hassle installing a trans cooler over the past week or so. I decided to go a bit of an unusual route with the cooler, and created plenty of challenges along the way. In the end, I think the result is worth it, though I need a lot more testing to know the performance.

I went with a TruCool LPD4921, which is basically the width of the radiator:

As of now, I haven't even driven the 4Runner since the install (just idled while refilling the AC system). I need to drive it, warm it fully and add trans fluid still (and put on the front skid plate). Working from home means not too much driving these days. I'll report how things work after a few drives. Stress testing will come later when I can get off road and/or summer really hits.

-Charlie

thanks a big ol' cooler! good to see something other than your typical B&M. a little variety is good to see.


.

 

[phattyduck]

It is just short of 294k miles right now. Nearly fully broken in...

-Charlie

And now she's finally fully broken in!

(and quite dusty)

-Charlie

 

[TN98t4r]

Did you ever get the soft brake pedal fixed? I own a 2005 tundra and had some brake issues a few years ago. Turns out I needed to adjust the rear shoes manually. It seems like 3/4 of the pedal travel was used up in applying the rears and once they applied to a certain pressure, the fronts would apply along with the rears for the last 1/4 of pedal travel. Was pretty sketchy for a while until I figured it out.

 

[phattyduck]

Did you ever get the soft brake pedal fixed? I own a 2005 tundra and had some brake issues a few years ago. Turns out I needed to adjust the rear shoes manually. It seems like 3/4 of the pedal travel was used up in applying the rears and once they applied to a certain pressure, the fronts would apply along with the rears for the last 1/4 of pedal travel. Was pretty sketchy for a while until I figured it out.

Yeah, an ABS actuation and another bleeding session and things are pretty good. I'll probably do it again to see if I can get that last little bit of performance out of it.

I know the rear brake adjustment issue - that has long been fixed. If the rear parts are working (not seized), it should stay in adjustment if you just use the parking brake regularly.

-Charlie

 

[phattyduck]

Figured I should do some updates.

I added flat mud flaps to reduce a bit of the mud on the doors:

I also got a Sherpa Matterhorn rack and got it installed over the weekend. I never liked the idea of the pressure feet at the front and I kept the roof rails from my 4x4 swap parts truck... Which means, extended rails! While I was at it, I removed, cleaned and painted the old and a new rail sections and did a rare clay and wax of the roof (sorry, not going to polish the roof):

After checking it out, I realized that rivnuts would stick up above the roof and lift the rails up, which wouldn't work. Instead, I used the same rivnuts with a couple washers, then a fender washer under the roof. The support under the roof is about 1" diameter to reduce the chance of pull-out. They are siliconed under the roof skin. (if they fall off when someday if I need to remove the tracks, it is easy to drop the headliner a bit to fix it) The added front section of track is aligned with an insert that I made between the two and a flat bolt-on plate you can see on the top where they meet.

The last bit of the puzzle is bending the front feet mounts a 5-10* to match the bracket angles to the roof rail and track and a couple M6 stainless bolts from my stash:

Final install, with a bit of Toyota Ricing, errr... Racing strips:

-Charlie