Poor V8 fuel economy caused by Awd?

[Hitman]

Who claimed the V8 would more more HP on premium? That is something you imagined.



Read my words again. The manual clearly states that you should use 91 octane for maximum performance. What do you interpret this to mean?


A V8 won't make more HP on premium. But it is less likely to pull timing. I get the impression you don't know much about engines.

I had the same exact impression of you. How do you know the engine won't make more HP on with premium fuel? Have you dynoed the engine in question using different octane levels?



If you continued reading the manual, it states some very good reasons why premium fuel is recommend in the V8 and V6.

Any vehicle may knock and pull timing because:
Variations in engines within the same model due to manufacturing tolerances.
Extremely hot weather.
Build-up of engine deposits.
Changes in altitude.
Hard driving conditions (towing).


When timing is pulled, MPG and emission suffer. 'Performance' is not just about HP.

Well guess what?? When ignition timing is retarded (the actual name of what you call "pulled") less HP is the direct result. This is indisputable.... but I'm sure you'll try to find a way to argue anyway.



Toyota states the 245 HP in the V6 was achived on Premium 91 octane. Don't use premium, don't expect 245 HP.

So why did you choose the V6? Because you save at the pump, buying premium gas, to get 10 more HP than a V8? :bouncy2:

Nope, as I stated several times, I chose the V6 for several reasons:

Selectable 4wd
Less expensive to buy and maintain
Timing chain vs timing belt
Better fuel economy
Indistiguishable performance between the V6 and V8

BTW, I usually put regular gas in my 4Runner. My engine may be capable of 245 HP, but I rarely, if ever use it. And just so you know, the V6 4Runner engine will make 245 HP on any gas, so long as the timing is not retarded.

 

[Northof49]

And I chose the V8 because from my experiences with both it:

- Gets basically the same mileage WHILE in 4wd all the time AND toting a couple hundred extra pounds
- Don't care about timing belts - 90% of new cars on the road use them, seem to work fine
- Is torquier, faster and tows more/better
- Sounds/feels better and smoother
- Resale value slighty better
- Little V8 badge on the front

The V6 is a great engine, there's no need to get into these pissing contests and exagerating of very minute differences. It's MORE than enough motor for these vehicles, and is a huge improvement over all preious 4Runner engines. However, since the V8 is available, the only 2 things I could justify buying a V6 for would be for,

a) Saving money at time of purchase
b) Selectable 4wd

That's it, everything else is a stretch. Does it get 1 MPG better? Sure it does! But face it, if you want good mileage, buy a Civic or something.

 

[Bluto]

Read my words again. The manual clearly states that you should use 91 octane for maximum performance. What do you interpret this to mean?

Power, MPG, and low emissions. Did you miss that in my above post?

"When timing is pulled, MPG and emission suffer. 'Performance' is not just about HP."

"A V8 won't make more HP on premium. But it is less likely to pull timing. "

How do you know the engine won't make more HP on with premium fuel? Have you dynoed the engine in question using different octane levels?

If timing is retarded on 87 or 89, 91/93 will produce more power under the operating conditions.

Are you claiming the 03-04 V8 can produce more than 235 HP on 91 octane? Actually, you are just writing open ended questions.

Well guess what?? When ignition timing is retarded (the actual name of what you call "pulled") less HP is the direct result. This is indisputable.... but I'm sure you'll try to find a way to argue anyway.

Nope, but thanks for stating the obvious. I need to gets un of dem autemotive dictionaires.

Nope, as I stated several times, I chose the V6 for several reasons:

Selectable 4wd
Less expensive to buy and maintain
Timing chain vs timing belt
Better fuel economy
Indistiguishable performance between the V6 and V8

First you claimed "More horsepower" now "Indistiguishable performance" Which one is it?

The V6 4Runner engine will make 245 HP on any gas, so long as the timing is not retarded.

Odd, Toyota had to use 91 to claim 245 under most driving conditions. But, yeah anything is possible.

 

[Hitman]

And I chose the V8 because from my experiences with both it:

- Gets basically the same mileage WHILE in 4wd all the time AND toting a couple hundred extra pounds
- Don't care about timing belts - 90% of new cars on the road use them, seem to work fine
- Is torquier, faster and tows more/better
- Sounds/feels better and smoother
- Resale value slighty better
- Little V8 badge on the front

The V6 is a great engine, there's no need to get into these pissing contests and exagerating of very minute differences. It's MORE than enough motor for these vehicles, and is a huge improvement over all preious 4Runner engines. However, since the V8 is available, the only 2 things I could justify buying a V6 for would be for,

a) Saving money at time of purchase
b) Selectable 4wd

That's it, everything else is a stretch. Does it get 1 MPG better? Sure it does! But face it, if you want good mileage, buy a Civic or something.

I think the MPG difference is a real factor.... no, it may not be a big difference, but even a small difference adds up over the years, especially with the ever-increasing price of gas these days. Will it break my bank account? No, not even close. But why would I buy the more expensive, less fuel efficient engine if I don't tow? Especially when the smaller engine makes just as much power (or slightly more) as the bigger engine?

I also don't believe that the V8 ('03 and '04 models) is any faster than the V6. Torque may get you off the line a bit quicker, but the higher HP will pull harder at the top end of the RPM range. I read a post here about two friends that were both 4th gen owners (one V6 and one V8) and they ran each other a few times at the track. The results were damn near identicle. So performance is a wash as far as I can tell.

As far as resale value-- With gas prices the way they are now, I'd bet that the V6 will have better resale value than the V8. In fact, I'd bet that the V6 is outselling the V8 right now.....

 

[Hitman]

Power, MPG, and low emissions. Did you miss that in my above post?

"When timing is pulled, MPG and emission suffer. 'Performance' is not just about HP."


No, didn't miss anything... I'm just saying that a loss of HP is the main disadvantage to retarded timing. Any old-school tuner knows that....


If timing is retarded on 87 or 89, 91/93 will produce more power under the operating conditions.

Are you claiming the 03-04 V8 can produce more than 235 HP on 91 octane? Actually, you are just writing open ended questions.

I'm not claiming that, but you sure seem to be. Let's use some simple logic, shall we?

Do we agree that Toyota would like to publish the highest HP figures they can for their 4Runner engines? If so, then they would use the fuel that would let their engines attain these numbers, correct? Okay, then if the higher octane fuel will allow the engine to run a higher advance on the ignition timing then that's what they would have done. So Toyota recommends 91 octane, but allows 87 octane in the manual. That tells me that the vehicle will probably perform best on 91 octane, but it by no means says that the vehicle cannot perform just as well on lower octane fuel. There are just too many variables that can cause knock/ping and make the knock sensors retard the timing (via the computer) Hell, even temperature is a main factor, and we both know that ambient temp can and does change all the time.




First you claimed "More horsepower" now "Indistiguishable performance" Which one is it?


Both. A ten HP difference is a real difference. But on the road, it equates to an indistinguishable difference in performance.


Odd, Toyota had to use 91 to claim 245 under most driving conditions. But, yeah anything is possible.

 

[Northof49]

I think the MPG difference is a real factor.... no, it may not be a big difference, but even a small difference adds up over the years, especially with the ever-increasing price of gas these days. Will it break my bank account? No, not even close. But why would I buy the more expensive, less fuel efficient engine if I don't tow? Especially when the smaller engine makes just as much power (or slightly more) as the bigger engine?

I also don't believe that the V8 ('03 and '04 models) is any faster than the V6. Torque may get you off the line a bit quicker, but the higher HP will pull harder at the top end of the RPM range. I read a post here about two friends that were both 4th gen owners (one V6 and one V8) and they ran each other a few times at the track. The results were damn near identicle. So performance is a wash as far as I can tell.

As far as resale value-- With gas prices the way they are now, I'd bet that the V6 will have better resale value than the V8. In fact, I'd bet that the V6 is outselling the V8 right now.....

I read that same post, but from my thousands of miles in 3 identical limiteds (03 V8, 04 V6, and 05 V8), in everday driving either V8 feels stronger. I live in the mountains, so maybe the extra torque is more noticeable on hills, whatever it is, I notice a difference. Of course, with the 05 V8s there is a more serious difference. And for my $50K, things like engine sound and smoothness and ARE a concern, even if the performance was identical...1 more MPG in a truck that gets 19MPG just doesn't matter. 1 full-throttle pass per week will kill that anyways, and I don't take it easy on the thing anyways.

Outselling doesn't mean much for resale (if that's even the case). Our dealership always sold more V8's, but that doesn't mean much. So far the V8's have had stronger used prices as well....both are good tho.

 

[Bluto]

Originally posted by Bluto
Power, MPG, and low emissions. Did you miss that in my above post?

"When timing is pulled, MPG and emission suffer. 'Performance' is not just about HP."

No, didn't miss anything...

Then why did you ask?

If timing is retarded on 87 or 89, 91/93 will produce more power under the operating conditions.

Are you claiming the 03-04 V8 can produce more than 235 HP on 91 octane? Actually, you are just writing open ended questions.


I'm not claiming that, but you sure seem to be.

Nope, sorry if my statements are not clear.

Let's use some simple logic, shall we?

Do we agree that Toyota would like to publish the highest HP figures they can for their 4Runner engines? If so, then they would use the fuel that would let their engines attain these numbers, correct? Okay, then if the higher octane fuel will allow the engine to run a higher advance on the ignition timing then that's what they would have done. So Toyota recommends 91 octane, but allows 87 octane in the manual. That tells me that the vehicle will probably perform best on 91 octane, but it by no means says that the vehicle cannot perform just as well on lower octane fuel. There are just too many variables that can cause knock/ping and make the knock sensors retard the timing (via the computer) Hell, even temperature is a main factor, and we both know that ambient temp can and does change all the time.

Toyota published: 245 Hp @ 5,200 rpm: 283 ft/lbs @ 3,400 rpm
(on 91 octane Premium fuel)

For the V8, 235 HP, 91 is recommend.

To me, there is a big difference in the phrasing. Toyota only claimed 245 on 91. We'll never know why Toyota published it, technically, legally, or otherwise. But I feel Toyota recommends 91 in the V6 and V8 for many more reasons than horsepower.

Time to self-moderate. I don't think we can add much more information to this thread.

Have a great weekend Hitman. I'll drink a cold one to ya! :beer: