I'm not arguing. I'm just posting the facts. We're all free to like or dislike whatever we want. No big deal and no hard feelings.
Really frustrated with snow traction...
- Thread starter mattb2003
- Start date
I'm not arguing. I'm just posting the facts. We're all free to like or dislike whatever we want. No big deal and no hard feelings.
bigwalts4runner
New member
We just had a average sized snow storm in Maryland this past week, and my 2005 4Runner V8 with Bridgestone Revo AT did excellent in the snow, no slipping, great traction, I did tried to get it stuck going up a pile of snow, but it just went up on the compacted snow. Last year I had a set of Bridgestone OEM Tires which were horrible, they got me stuck in my own Driveway. Tires make a hell of a differance.
Jerrydog
New member
I can attest to the fact that the Blizaks are the best snow tire made. Im on my third set for my wifes cars and they have fantastic ice and snow traction. We are running the WS70's on steelies on her Accord ex and she loves them, tehy would be unstopable on an suv I imagine. The rubber compond in a snow tire is differant than a street tire which is the main reason tehy perform so well.
Well, your Revos are brand new. They should do better in the snow compared to the older Bridgestones that you used to have.
klennop
New member
Hey Doc, just because Syracuse gets a lot of snow means nothing to me. If we want to do Geography, then have you ever heard of Lake Winnebago? It is the second largest freshwater lake within any state in the United States. I have driven so many miles on it that lake when frozen, it isn't even funny. I also drive in a wooded 40 acre plot all year round which has high ground, inclines, swamp, mud holes, and sand. Does that give me more credibility....I don't think it does. There are always good and bad drivers where ever you are.
Also your tire comparison isn't a fair comparison at all.. I said, "snow tires do look more like a AT tire with softer compounds and a lot more siping vs a conventional highway tire[/B]."
You posted a Light Truck A/T tire and compare it to a low profile directional Blizzak made for sports cars. That isn't even a fair comparison, it is like comparing a sports car vs a truck. But I guess if you think Blizzaks look more like a conventional highway tire that is fine. You can have your own opinion.
On another note, I took the neighbor kid up to our land to shoot some guns for his first time. We were taking a bunch of videos and pictures for him to show his parents then I remembered I said on here that I would post some videos of the ATRAC not working well in the snow.
I come through here about every other week and you can see my old tracks in the video. The night before we got about 3-5" of new snow on top of the old stuff. I am about a mile in from the paved road. I had all the electronics turned off, open diff but in 4H since it is an 08 Limited to get up to this point. This is a fairly level area with sand below it. In this video I stopped the truck, put all the electronics back on. Then I slowly throttle up until full. Disregard the comment in the end of the video how I said ATRAC is off, you can clearly hear it still working. I meant to only say the diff is locked. What happens is since the computer thinks there is not enough traction it just constantly throws power to all the wheels making them all just sink in and letting me go nowhere but digging myself in.
1-29 Snow :: ATRAC getting me stuck video by klennop - Photobucket
Now I am completely stuck since the ATRAC just dug all the tires in vs letting them spin a little to gain some momentum to keep the truck going. Notice I am in 4 Low, Diff Locked everything off and STUCK! The vehicle was NOT hung up from snow underneath it I could pass my shovel under the truck.This is also where I think that a more A/T style tire will work better to actually dig me out vs the tread just filling up and staying on top of the snow. That works on the road but not off the road but that is just from my experiences.
Video of me stuck:
1-29 Snow :: ATRAC on stuck in snow video by klennop - Photobucket
This is what I got stuck in, really nothing that bad at least from what I have been in before with other vehicles, notice the path I came in on.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e298/klennop/1-29 Snow/IMG_2175.jpg
Here is the picture after I got out of the snow and where the next video will begin:
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e298/klennop/1-29 Snow/IMG_2176.jpg
So here I am starting out on level ground right after being unstuck. Then there is a slight incline which I am heading up with the Diff Locked, all electronics off. It is kinda hard to hold the camera still while bouncing around a bit, but you can tell I am clearly starting out fine and clearly making progress even up a hill without the ATRAC on. The ATRAC wouldn't even let me get going on level ground. Unfortunately I couldn't shoot anymore video or take any more pictures. My battery died and cut this video short, I used too much on the neighbor kid.
1-29 Snow :: ATRAC off, TRAC off going fine in the snow video by klennop - Photobucket
I really wanted to take another video of what happens when the rear wheels are in deeper snow and the fronts are on the icy road, maybe next time. So from these videos you can see why I feel the ATRAC limits your ability in the snow OFF ROAD. Now on road, it seems to be a total different story. I think what happens is the computer senses there just isn't enough traction so it keeps shifting power to each wheel while not giving it a chance to spin just a bit to gain a little of ground. This in turn just digs and digs not letting the vehicle gain any momentum. Maybe experience driving in snow makes it easier for me to drive without the ATRAC? I guess if you just mash the throttle with everything off you would dig in and get stuck. However at the same time, with the ATRAC I still drive the same way and it also limits the timing so?? On paper and on the road it is fine but for me, I will keep it off when I get the snow off the pavement.
Sorry for the long post.
BTW, forgot to say-- here's a picture of the Blizzak tires that TireRack recommends for our 4Runners. Notice that the tread design is nothing like an A/T tread design. Again, not a lot of voids between the tread block and plenty of siping. This is a typical modern day snow tire for SUVs and light trucks.
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klennop
New member
Didn't you watch the video of me in the same snow only a truck length ahead of where I was stuck with the ATRAC enabled doing the doing the same maneuvers but actually making headway, even up a slight incline with the ATRAC disabled?
I can't prove it anymore in the real world than taking video of it, but if you believe otherwise that is fine.
klennop
New member
I agree with you on the tread design being tighter vs a passenger tire in the center but on the edges there is still a more lug style pattern vs a passenger tire. I do know what a modern snow tire looks like but I just always think it looks more aggressive from the feel and look vs a normal passenger tire.
That tire also says:
"combine grip in snow and on ice with reassuring handling on wet roads and in slush. The Blizzak DM-V1 is designed with a focus on ice traction and braking, as well as wet road handling and hydroplaning resistance to provide wintertime driving competence. "
By all means I am not trying to start an argument, just laying out the facts. There is no mention about going off road with these tires, only road. It is kind of odd that even when you do the tire finder on Bridgestone's site, once you mention off road they point you to an A/T. I just don't know of anyone who runs these in a off road setting, so I really don't know how they stack up to an A/T in the deep snow.
I have always been a fan of BFG A/T's and M/T's. Once I take my trip down south with my 4Runner, I will most likely switch tires. I just want to use these Michelins for that trip to hopefully save on gas mileage. Then when next winter comes I can report back on how if it is more the tires or the trucks electronics.
Here are some of my last 2 trucks that I never had any issues with in the snow but like I said I always had an aggressive tire.
Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket
Yes, and I also watched your video where you were stopped (and stuck), but decided to floor the gas pedal and then you blamed ATRAC. In the same exact situation without ATRAC, you're still stuck. And I had to laugh that you said "and that was floored" at the end of the video. You obviously don't understand how to use ATRAC to your advantage.
I should post some videos of me driving my 4Runner through the snow with ATRAC on and not getting stuck. I do it all the time, as do many other 4Runner owners.
But if you don't like ATRAC, then dont use it. It's really not a big deal either way. I'm not sure why you're so hell bent on convincing everyone that ATRAC is bad. Just don't use it if you don't like it.
The only point I was trying to make is that modern snow tires are NOT designed to clear snow out of their treads. That was my whole point all along. You can look up just about any snow tire that fits our 4Runners and they all have tight tread blocks without big voids and plenty of siping. That's because they are intended to retain snow, not clear it. That's all I'm saying. You made a statement saying that you'd rather have a tire that clears itself so it can dig into the snow. I responded by saying I'd rather have a tire that retains snow in it's tread.
BTW, I've been driving all winter with Discoverer ATRs on my 4Runner. They do well in the snow, especially for a non-snow tire.
klennop
New member
Did you miss where I said in my post "Then I slowly throttle up until full." I said it was floored to show how it re****s the timing also. You can tell I didn't just mash the gas. I also said in my post, "Maybe experience driving in snow makes it easier for me to drive without the ATRAC? I guess if you just mash the throttle with everything off you would dig in and get stuck. However at the same time, with the ATRAC I still drive the same way and it also limits the timing so??"
I don't really know how you can screw up ATRAC, a computer is doing all the work all you can do it press the gas pedal. When it can't find any traction it keeps searching, and it limits your throttle to help prevent wheel spin. I could have sat there all day at idle or full throttle and I wouldn't have moved. Your situation may be different but I just proved the situations I run into with it on a regular basis in the woods.
I don't know how you can say, "In the same exact situation without ATRAC, you're still stuck." When I just showed you how I was in the same situation, it is like you can't comprehend that the video showed this because you brainwashed by a manual or something.
I am not "hell bent" on convincing anyone that it is bad. I am just showing it isn't the miracle off road fix that you make it out to be. I said earlier that I would take video to show an example, and I did. It isn't my fault that you don't like it or don't want to believe it. Maybe it would make you feel better if I took some video of ATRAC doing a good job on the road or in the sand or on some rocks when spring comes because those are the places I think it does well.
klennop
New member
I never said they weren't but you seem to think I doubted this. I like a A/T tire in the snow that cleans its lugs vs a Blizzak style tire which I have never seen someone use off road nor is it mentioned anywhere that they are good off road or supposed to be used in that manner. I prefer one style of tire off road in the snow and you prefer another I guess from our own experiences.
Don't worry too much about making me feel better because I've actually felt just fine all along. It's not me who has issues with ATRAC, it's you. It works as advertised in my driving experiences. If you learn more about ATRAC, I think you'll discover how to adjust your driving style to make it work better for you. In deep snow driving (on road or off) the idea is obviously to maintain momentum if you're trying to get up a hill. You can easily accomplish that with ATRAC enabled if you modulate the throttle accordingly. If you just want to floor the gas pedal and try to spin your way up a snowly hill, then ATRAC will activate and prevent that from happening. Like I said, if you understand how ATRAC works, you'll do much better in those conditions. There are literally thousands of 4Runner owners who seem to do just fine with it. Personally, I use it to my advantage and wouldn't ever want to go back to spinning my tires, especially considering the fact that disabling ATRAC in snow means we have completely open diffs in the front and the rear. And of course that means the front tire will LESS traction will get all the torque on the front axle and the rear tire will LESS traction will get all the torque on the back axle.
klennop
New member
You keep going back to mashing the throttle which I didn't do, I slowly increased the throttle until at full, same as what I would do with the ATRAC off. How many times do I have to say this? When a computer can't tell that there is enough traction to get the vehicle moving it isn't going to help you no matter at what throttle. Instead of letting the tires spin just a little more to gain the momentum, it applies the brake and searches another wheel for traction but if the computer doesn't find it there either it will just keep slowly digging you in going from wheel to wheel, just like mashing the throttle with everything off but slower.
This all started from me posting my experiences with ATRAC in the snow and the flaws I found it to have. You doubted this, so it seemed you had an issue with my experiences. I also said I don't mind it in other conditions so I am not "hell bent on saying it is so bad" , only in deep snow, in my experiences. However you kept saying it is always better to have it on no matter what. I then said I would post videos showing my experiences with it, so I did. Then you didn't like that either. So I guess this just defines us, I am the doer and you are the talker.
So I am no longer going to keep going back and forth with you. I know this will never end because you can't look outside the box or manual to see a real world experience.
corrado
New member
thanks for taking the vids, it does help describe what you are talking about.
The first thing that hit me was pure shock about the kind of snow you were stuck in. There is no way my truck would get stuck in that situation. That makes me blame the tires right off the bat. They look like a more highway oriented tire, and maybe thats the reason why the truck is doing so bad and also why electronics are kicking in too often/soon? Regardless, I tend to agree with you that in your situation, taking everything into account (tires, snow, terrain under snow), you were better off without ATRAC. I really do think better tires would make the system work more efficiently, and close that gap somewhat though.
Are you able to turn off ATRAC on your 4runner? I knew later ones had a "VSC off" switch, but didn't know defeating ATRAC was possible on any 4R...
Also in regards to the tire debate, I am a FIRM believer in snow tires. I was on the fence about buying a set for my truck, but decided on a "severe snow" rated all season (GY-W-SA). Not even close to the same performance in terms of traction, cornering, braking, etc. on the roads. However, I might agree that an aggressive AT tire is better in deep, untracked snow.
The first thing that hit me was pure shock about the kind of snow you were stuck in. There is no way my truck would get stuck in that situation. That makes me blame the tires right off the bat. They look like a more highway oriented tire, and maybe thats the reason why the truck is doing so bad and also why electronics are kicking in too often/soon? Regardless, I tend to agree with you that in your situation, taking everything into account (tires, snow, terrain under snow), you were better off without ATRAC. I really do think better tires would make the system work more efficiently, and close that gap somewhat though.
Are you able to turn off ATRAC on your 4runner? I knew later ones had a "VSC off" switch, but didn't know defeating ATRAC was possible on any 4R...
Also in regards to the tire debate, I am a FIRM believer in snow tires. I was on the fence about buying a set for my truck, but decided on a "severe snow" rated all season (GY-W-SA). Not even close to the same performance in terms of traction, cornering, braking, etc. on the roads. However, I might agree that an aggressive AT tire is better in deep, untracked snow.
Ian
New member
Having driven through some heavy snow this year with Blizzak DM-V1 tires, I really appreciate dedicated snow tires. The biggest difference is stopping and turning, although they do avoid spinning under acceleration. That said, I have a new set of Michelin AT tires for the rest of the year and they were more than adequate in the first snow fall (3 or 4 inches), but there is a noticeable difference in stopping power versus the dedicated snow tires. It comes down to how good is good enough. My wife drives the t4r daily and coupled with the poor roads and plowing, I felt the snow tires were warranted.
Linked to picture of tires:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/perfo...gers-more/59327-cepek-dc-2-blizzak-dm-v1.html
Linked to picture of tires:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/perfo...gers-more/59327-cepek-dc-2-blizzak-dm-v1.html
klennop
New member
No problem, sometimes it is easier to just show people vs trying to explain the situation.
As for the snow there was a fresh 3-5" of non packy snow on top of a crust of icy snow with snow underneath that.
The tires on the truck are Michelin Cross Terrains about half gone. I agree that tires are a big deal and like I said earlier, I am going to replace them with a more aggressive tire after I take my trip down south in May. Tires possibly would have made the electronics work better. I will see next winter after getting new tires.
At the same time, this is a test showing the same situation with the same tires, snow, etc. so it seems to be a pretty fair comparison.
On my 08 limited I can shut the ATRAC off.
I also believe in snow tires, for the road. I just have never seen anyone use them in an off road setting nor have I heard anything about using them off road. So I can't comment on what I don't know about or have experience with??
