Rear Coilover, Long Travel, Custom Linkage Thread
- Thread starter 1985taylor1925
- Start date
4x4runner2002
New member
That's gonna be a lot of weight my 891s weren't enough. Before you buy look into 861s. That's what I have currently with my rear swing out bumper it's about 4" lift and flex great.
MStudt
official vendor
I'll be the second one to steer you away from 891's. Mine started sagging with a couple months of carrying about 150lbs.
Turbonate
New member
snivilous
Senior Member
Same for me as above, my 891s have literally NO lift in them right now. I sit under 22" hub to fender in the back, and the only thing I have besides my bumper is normal tools and recovery gear.
AssBurns
New member
I did something very similar to what [MENTION=101910]Turbonate[/MENTION] did. My goal was to keep stock bump stop location while getting as much down travel without running into issues. I decided to use Bilstein 7100 12" short body shocks. It would be pretty hard to get much more than 12" shocks to fit without clearance issues or having to cut into the fender wells. It was pretty tough to get mine to fit while keeping stock bump stops. I wouldn't go more than 14" with stock links. Mine bind up quite a bit already but I still have stock links at the moment. I plan on fabbing so new links soon.
rossgoldie
New member
I did something very similar to what [MENTION=101910]Turbonate[/MENTION] did. My goal was to keep stock bump stop location while getting as much down travel without running into issues. I decided to use Bilstein 7100 12" short body shocks. It would be pretty hard to get much more than 12" shocks to fit without clearance issues or having to cut into the fender wells. It was pretty tough to get mine to fit while keeping stock bump stops. I wouldn't go more than 14" with stock links. Mine bind up quite a bit already but I still have stock links at the moment. I plan on fabbing so new links soon.
Got a built thread for that shock tower? I'm interested in having what you have
AssBurns
New member
If this link works here is my build thread [MENTION=105159]rossgoldie[/MENTION]
AssBurns 2000 Limited Build Thread
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?t=206385
AssBurns 2000 Limited Build Thread
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?t=206385
Kurtis
New member
I'm going to go ahead and jump in here because, well, this has kinda been my wheel house for the last couple years and I put a TON of thought and engineering into my 4 link for both the front and rear.
To start:
Read:
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum - View Single Post - 4 link mocked up ...Tell me what you think
(Yeah, I know, Pirate guys are *******s. Still some good info though. Shut up and read.)
Link Suspension Basics | NC4x4
(For the purpose of the calculator)
There are normally 2 theories for a 4 link suspension. Folks either think they can slap 4 tubes on the rear suspension and call it a day. Others feel it must be blueprinted, Osha approved, and calculated to the exact degree/minute/second. The truth lays some where in between and is relative to the eye of the beholder. Yeah, not the answer you are looking for right? There isn't any bold do's and don'ts. Just a list of guiding principles to go by. Here is what I have learned thus far since designing my 4-links and Ultra 4 racecars I have worked on:
- Ride height is your base line. That is where everything is measure from.
- **** rear 3 link... Seriously....If you are already going through all the work to do links and coilovers why half ass it? Whole ass it. Go 4 link. The swing of a 4 link suspension is far superior to a 3 link. 3 link will move lateral where a 4 link will not. 4 link swing will provide far greater control of the vehicle in the whoops at speed. (Unless you are building to meet specific class rules for racing 4 is greater than 3.)
- Pay attention to your anti-squat. It will change how your vehicle handles. Most Ultra 4 cars run 60-80% AS. This allows the vehicle to transfer the weight to the rear and have a better plant on the rear tires at speed. You also see this in trophy trucks. Drag cars need about 100% to transfer power to the tires. Any thing above 100% is generally used for dedicated rock crawlers since the axle moves away from the frame and picks the truck up. In turn it can make the suspension want to buck at speed.
- Pay attention to your Roll Axis. 4 link drag cars get the stamp of approval at +2/-2 degrees of understeer/oversteer. Crawlers get the okay at +6/-6 degrees. Don't ignore Roll Axis. Otherwise you look like this when you flex:
Notice this guy's rear axle. It literally steering the Jeep. It will also give you horrible handling and shit for body roll. I think I ended up with +2 degrees.
- Guess/estimate your center of gravity. It will help with anti squat calculations. Generally speaking your CG is estimated to be the top center bell housing bolt.
- You need 40 degree of horizontal angle between the upper and lower links. Some hill climbers have more. Some Ultra 4 buggies have 35 degrees. 40 is a good start.
- Mount your coilovers as far out on the axle as possible. Wide stance when speaking of the coilovers. It will allow the suspension to handle the body roll rather than a sway bar doing all the work.
- At full articulation your coilover would ideally be 90 degrees to the axle. If they are not you will get a generous amount of body roll and it will not feel as stable. At the same time don't mount the upper coilover mounts too close together or the truck will feel like it wants to fall over all the time. (Go ahead, ask me how I know. Then ask me how I fixed it.)
- Lower links should be around 36-40" in length. You can go longer but you start to risk bending them all the time and negatively effecting your break-over angle.
- Upper links can be 70%-120% the length of your lowers. Yes, I know people say 75% is good. It is but depending on how you have it set up, you might be able to a 36" lower and a 42" upper link. Just be mind full of your u-joints and castor angle on a front axle. There isn't a magical number here.
Challenges you will likely run into when dealing with 4Runners:
- Those pretty new coilovers you want to put in the rear? Yeah, they need to go where the frame is. Move the frame. Notch it. Chop it. Cut it. Or don't do coilovers.
- Trailing arms... That is going to be difficult on a 4Runner unless you are okay with getting rid of the rear seats. Fun idea, but your passengers won't like it.
- Your tires might clear the fenders at full bump. Will they clear it at full articulation?
I'm sure I have left some stuff out. Keep in mind this is only my experience this far. My testing grounds have been the last 6 months of decently hardcore wheeling and beating the absolute shit out of it at Johnson Valley during The King of The Hammers week. During KOH I did not hold back once. Every time I wanted to go fast, I did. The truck took me as fast as the engine would allow. It was stable. Very stable. The link placement plays as much of a part as the coilover does. Just because you have some fancy name brand on it doesn't mean shit.
To start:
Read:
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum - View Single Post - 4 link mocked up ...Tell me what you think
(Yeah, I know, Pirate guys are *******s. Still some good info though. Shut up and read.)
Link Suspension Basics | NC4x4
(For the purpose of the calculator)
There are normally 2 theories for a 4 link suspension. Folks either think they can slap 4 tubes on the rear suspension and call it a day. Others feel it must be blueprinted, Osha approved, and calculated to the exact degree/minute/second. The truth lays some where in between and is relative to the eye of the beholder. Yeah, not the answer you are looking for right? There isn't any bold do's and don'ts. Just a list of guiding principles to go by. Here is what I have learned thus far since designing my 4-links and Ultra 4 racecars I have worked on:
- Ride height is your base line. That is where everything is measure from.
- **** rear 3 link... Seriously....If you are already going through all the work to do links and coilovers why half ass it? Whole ass it. Go 4 link. The swing of a 4 link suspension is far superior to a 3 link. 3 link will move lateral where a 4 link will not. 4 link swing will provide far greater control of the vehicle in the whoops at speed. (Unless you are building to meet specific class rules for racing 4 is greater than 3.)
- Pay attention to your anti-squat. It will change how your vehicle handles. Most Ultra 4 cars run 60-80% AS. This allows the vehicle to transfer the weight to the rear and have a better plant on the rear tires at speed. You also see this in trophy trucks. Drag cars need about 100% to transfer power to the tires. Any thing above 100% is generally used for dedicated rock crawlers since the axle moves away from the frame and picks the truck up. In turn it can make the suspension want to buck at speed.
- Pay attention to your Roll Axis. 4 link drag cars get the stamp of approval at +2/-2 degrees of understeer/oversteer. Crawlers get the okay at +6/-6 degrees. Don't ignore Roll Axis. Otherwise you look like this when you flex:
Notice this guy's rear axle. It literally steering the Jeep. It will also give you horrible handling and shit for body roll. I think I ended up with +2 degrees.
- Guess/estimate your center of gravity. It will help with anti squat calculations. Generally speaking your CG is estimated to be the top center bell housing bolt.
- You need 40 degree of horizontal angle between the upper and lower links. Some hill climbers have more. Some Ultra 4 buggies have 35 degrees. 40 is a good start.
- Mount your coilovers as far out on the axle as possible. Wide stance when speaking of the coilovers. It will allow the suspension to handle the body roll rather than a sway bar doing all the work.
- At full articulation your coilover would ideally be 90 degrees to the axle. If they are not you will get a generous amount of body roll and it will not feel as stable. At the same time don't mount the upper coilover mounts too close together or the truck will feel like it wants to fall over all the time. (Go ahead, ask me how I know. Then ask me how I fixed it.)
- Lower links should be around 36-40" in length. You can go longer but you start to risk bending them all the time and negatively effecting your break-over angle.
- Upper links can be 70%-120% the length of your lowers. Yes, I know people say 75% is good. It is but depending on how you have it set up, you might be able to a 36" lower and a 42" upper link. Just be mind full of your u-joints and castor angle on a front axle. There isn't a magical number here.
Challenges you will likely run into when dealing with 4Runners:
- Those pretty new coilovers you want to put in the rear? Yeah, they need to go where the frame is. Move the frame. Notch it. Chop it. Cut it. Or don't do coilovers.
- Trailing arms... That is going to be difficult on a 4Runner unless you are okay with getting rid of the rear seats. Fun idea, but your passengers won't like it.
- Your tires might clear the fenders at full bump. Will they clear it at full articulation?
I'm sure I have left some stuff out. Keep in mind this is only my experience this far. My testing grounds have been the last 6 months of decently hardcore wheeling and beating the absolute shit out of it at Johnson Valley during The King of The Hammers week. During KOH I did not hold back once. Every time I wanted to go fast, I did. The truck took me as fast as the engine would allow. It was stable. Very stable. The link placement plays as much of a part as the coilover does. Just because you have some fancy name brand on it doesn't mean shit.
Here is what I recently did on my '04, wish I had seen this thread sooner, but wouldn't have really changed too much.
- King 2.5 12" RR, 30.9" Extended, 18.9" collapsed with over cylinder top cap and welded lower rod end to get to those specs
- Metal Tech LT HD coils, longer coil passenger side, shorted on the driver with a 1.5" DS spacer.
- Heim and bushing on the LCA and pan, dual heimed on the uppers
- Stock upper and lower shock and LCA mounts cut out, upper shock mount moved up 1" lower shock mount dropped 1"
1985taylor1925
Senior Member
\Here is what I recently did on my '04, wish I had seen this thread sooner, but wouldn't have really changed too much.
- King 2.5 12" RR, 30.9" Extended, 18.9" collapsed with over cylinder top cap and welded lower rod end to get to those specs
- Metal Tech LT HD coils, longer coil passenger side, shorted on the driver with a 1.5" DS spacer.
- Heim and bushing on the LCA and pan, dual heimed on the uppers
- Stock upper and lower shock and LCA mounts cut out, upper shock mount moved up 1" lower shock mount dropped 1"
Just saw this post. How do those kings feel in the back end? And do I feel much of a difference in the back end with replacing the bushings with heim joints? Being as that frees up articulation so well I am wondering if it makes the suspension feel less reactive
The Kings are fantastic compared to the Icons, night and day, really happy with the way it is working out. May play with the pressure and valving some, but overall they are setup quite well, especially for big hits when loaded down, which is where the Icons reallllly struggled.
I don't think you could feel the difference between bushings and heims, but the bushings will bind sooner and not articulate as well. My upper arms were heim/bushing before I started this project and when I began cycling everything noticed the bushing was binding pretty bad, so chopped it off and put a heim in there, now there is no binding at all on the upper links.
A bushing on the lower links was a necessary evil with the offset to avoid the link binding on the axle, there are a few options out there that could be used to get rid of the bushing on the axle end, but the axle side doesn't twist quite as much on the lower arms, so I can live with a bushing there. That end is in the mud and water more often too, so a heim joint there will wear a lot quicker than at the frame side.
1985taylor1925
Senior Member
Interesting. Whats the difference - are the Kings valved heavier on rebound for more weight? I would imagine coils perform similar between the two as long as they are similar spring rate. Which of the two (Kings or Icons) do you think would be better for on-road dynamics on a stock weighted 3rd gen? I know you can adjust valving on either. I would be interested in eventually upgrading to one of the two, but I have no plans of adding armor. I do mild off road, mostly local mountain trials. But the majority of my driving is on road, so that is my primary concern
CO4running
Junior Member
I chose the 4 link set up with the F-150 tank swap. Went through the floor as well to get the travel desired and to keep the 4runner low.
I started with coil-overs but the more I read, adding bump stops and the sway bar was going to be the ticket with all the miles I was planning on putting on it, also it was getting congested back there...The ORI's have been great .
I started with coil-overs but the more I read, adding bump stops and the sway bar was going to be the ticket with all the miles I was planning on putting on it, also it was getting congested back there...The ORI's have been great .
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